I am seriously starting to become Pro-Catholic, please help...need advice

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? [Acts 2:38 …Peter said …REPENT and BE BAPTIZED…in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS and…RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.]

What do we do after we receive him and believe? What is that, born of God power, he gives us to become children of God? 1Jn 1:12 But to ALL WHO RECEIVED HIM who BELIEVED in his name HE GAVE POWER TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD 13 who were BORN not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but OF GOD

What must we do to be saved if we believe? [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

Does baptism save? 1Pt3:20 … eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.

How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]

How do we put on Christ? [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD] How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? [Rv1:6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

How do we wash and what is our robe? Rv 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them WHITE IN THE LAMB’S BLOOD.

What is this washing, in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of our God, that sanctifies and justifies us? 1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.

The answer to all the above is BAPTISM. There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT, just as you were called to the ONE HOPE that belongs to your call, ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER of us all, who is above all and through all and IN ALL. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

The seven sacraments are the fruit of the tree of life, the cross. [Mt 8:17 He took our infirmities and bore our diseases.] Paul states in [1Cor 4:1 This is how one should REGARD US AS SERVANTS OF CHRIST and STEWARDS OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD.] The SACRAMENTS or MYSTERIES IN ENGLISH are part of those mysteries, now made known through the Gospel. Instituted by Christ, and performed with the intention of doing as Christ willed, they are signs, words and actions, by the power of Christ and action of the Holy Spirit, confer the grace signified. Or it is an outward, material sign that points to and inward, spiritual reality. [the CCC says. As fire transforms into itself what it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the life of the Spirit, through the sacraments whomever he touches.]

The scriptures tell us in Mark 7:32 of a deaf man with a speech impediment, Christ put his fingers in the deaf man’s ears and spat and touched the man’s tongue; and looking up to heaven, he said , Be opened, and the man was healed. Again in John 9:6 Christ spat on the ground, made clay of spittle and anointed another man’s eyes, saying Go wash in the pool, he went washed and came back seeing.

Christ had no need to use audible words or visible created material to heal, but man being created both visible and invisible, body and soul. Christ knew man had a need to see and experience, so he choose to apply his invisible touch of grace, through created visible signs. Man exercising the gift of faith, in God’s word, may see and experience, knowing he is truly touched by Christ, in the sacraments, thru visible signs and words.

Christ said to the people in Luke 12:54 …When you see a cloud rising in the west you say at once, A shower is coming and so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, There will be scorching heat; and it happens. [Now, Christ is not speaking of sacraments in Lk12 the point is, when certain signs are seen in nature we know certain things will come about, AS GOD ORDAINED. So it is with sacraments, performed with the intention to do as Christ willed, just as the cloud in the west and the south wind, produce what they signify so sacraments produce what they signify, AS GOD ORDAINED. We are touched, strengthened and healed by Christ in the sacraments.

[Lk 6:19 And all the crowd sought to touch him for power came forth from him and healed them all. [The crowd knew, power came from Christ, they didn’t see the power, but they saw and experienced the change in themselves and others. Isa 12:33 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.]

 

[manualman]

BornAgain11,

Thanks for bolstering our case so well. The OP came here digusted with the distortions, gun mania, blindered thinking and mean spiritedness so often found in American evangelicalism. (and to be fair, we certainly have our fair share in catholicism as well). If he’d forgetten, well…

To the original poster, Welcome! I too spent years in an evangelical setting. I went through college with the Navigators and saw my fair share of invincibly ignorant anti-catholicism.

A resource I found very helpful, if saddening, to read is Karl Keating’s “Catholicism and Fundamentalism.” It speaks in clear language to the great majority of accusations evangelicals like to hurl against the catholic church. Sometimes it takes a bit too much delight in showing the attackers in buffoon-like behaviors, but everybody is human and it IS hard not to take such attacks personally.

You are going to fall in love with the Eucharist. It is utterly clear in Scripture and history that Jesus MEANT it when he told his disciples “This is my Body, which will be given up for you.” Go to a mass. Watch. Listen to the words. What spoke to my soul was the way catholicism was so obviously designed by God to work with us body and soul. My experience in evangelicalism was that they had almost a disdain for the physical, like matter was somehow part of the problem. (“It’s all gonna burn” was a common reminder). But matter is NOT evil. Creation is GOOD, but damaged by the Fall. For me, this was subtle defect in protestantism that opened my eyes to the rest of them.

I’m technically a cradle catholic, but was to most intents and purpose evangelical through college. It’s good to be home.

 

[Ockham]

Well, it’s too bad this thread has devolved into a pointless scripture shoot-out. I hope the OP hasn’t been turned off Christianity.

Born Again, I’m sorry to hear your husband got spooked by something that caused him to run out of the Church. The very fact that you are here suggests you may be looking for something (possibly a return?). Please keep in mind that much of what you may know about the Church is wrong. There is a mini-industry of anti-Catholicism and it’s very good at filling people’s minds with propaganda and distortion. Christ said if the world hates you it hated Him first.

As others have pointed out, the Church codified the Bible in the fourth century. What did Christians do before that if it is the only truth? You acknowledged that the Church kept the Bible safe. If the Church was not based on the Bible why would it do that? For most of the years since Christ the average person has been illiterate or too poor to afford a Bible so how can faith alone be the path to salvation? If the written word was to be the sole source of truth then why didn’t Christ say so? Why didn’t He just give us a book?

Actually, Catholics take the Bible more literally than our still-protesting cousins. Christ instructed us to be baptized, so we do. He told us to confess our sins, so we do. He told us very specifically to receive Him in Holy Communion, so … yep we do that too and it is awesome. You should try it. Could there be a better personal relationship with Jesus?

During the fifteen hundreds some bishops in Germany mistakenly sold indulgences to help pay for St. Peter’s Basillica. They were wrong. One monk saw the error in their ways and called them on it. For that he was right. However, breaking the Church in two served no good purpose and only weakened Christ’s flock. For this he was terribly wrong. Judas sold Christ for thirty pieces of silver. Luther split the Church for less. Christ never used the plural of the word church and it’s ludicrous to think he meant some invisible community of believers. As someone else pointed out, the continued protesting of indulgences has created a modern day Tower of Babel. Christ wants one flock. Isn’t it time to end the protest? Come home, we miss you.

 

[DiesMikael]

My advice is just: If you feel it is right, go for it.

My story was pretty much like the one you gave at the start of this thread, just instead of being a protestant I was an “atheist” (Closet christian).

But something just drew me to the Catholic Church and I knew it was the right thing to do and that was to join.

I began with telling my parents. And then I spoke to a priest. And then I met that same priest once a week. And then I got confirmed… and no regrets.

 

[jlhargus]

Okay here we go: Biblical Refrences to Catholic Doctrines -All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness 2 Tim 3:16

JL: No argument there scripture is God breathed and is USEFUL, for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Note it does not say ONLY SCRIPTURE is USEFUL. Whom did Christ SEND to TEACH, rebuke, correct, train in righteousness?
[Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.]

Whom did Christ SEND to rebuke and correct? Ordained and SENT bishops, such as Timothy and Titus. [2Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be prepared in season and out of season; CORRECT, REBUKE and ENCOURAGE—WITH great patience and CAREFUL INSTRUCTION] Timothy whom Paul layed hands on, thereby ordaining and SENDING Timothy as an overseer (bishop), to CORRECT, REBUKE AND ENCOURAGE. Paul did not say, have everyone read the bible, so they maybe corrected, rebuked and encouraged. If fact when this was written, PauL was speaking of the OT as there was no complete NT yet. Besides bibles would have been very expensive, as they were hands copied, individuals would not have owned one, unless they were very wealthy. It was not until after the printing press was invented in the 1400 hundreds that books became afordable by those considered middle class.

[1 Tm 5:17 Let THE ELDERS THAT RULE well be counted worthy of double honour especially they WHO LABOUR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE] 1Tm5:1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 1Tm5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. 1Tm6:17 CHARGE THEM THAT ARE RICH in this world, that they BE NOT HIGHMINDED, NOR TRUST IN uncertain RICHES, BUT IN THE LIVING GOD, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, that he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both TO EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers. Titus1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore, REBUKE them SHARPLY, so that they will be sound in the faith] Titus2:1 But SPEAK THOU the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;] [Titus2:15 THESE, then, are the THINGS YOU SHOULD TEACH. ENCOURAGE and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Do not let anyone despise you.]

Whom did Christ SEND to train in righteousness? [Rm 10:14 HOW then SHALL THEY CALL ON HIM in whom they have not believed? and HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE IN HIM OF WHOM THEY HAVE NOT HEARD? and HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER? 15 And HOW SHALL THEY PREACH EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?]

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, the tridition of men made a doctrine of God around 1521 AD.]

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, sent by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel, than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul went by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13.

 

[jlhargus]

-Apostles Sucession Acts 1:21-26

JL: When you read scripture try to find someone who was ordained and SENT apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles OR one they layed hands on and SENT. In Mt28:16-20 we see Christ SEND the apostles to teach ALL nations. Christ promised to be with them until the END. Christ knew those men would not be around till the END. How then could he be with those who were to TEACH ALL nations TILL THE END? The answer is seen in scripture, by laying on of hands (the sacrament of holy orders, ordination), the apostles pass on the authority given them by Christ to TEACH ALL, and ordain ministers in every Church.

The sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission. [2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. Titus 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. Acts 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. Acts 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you OVERSEERS TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 Tin 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself TO THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT Jer23:21 I DID NOT SEND these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied [Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in apostolic succession, in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, those whom Christ send we must listen to. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, the Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

 

[KitSileya]

I just wanted to wish the OP good luck. I was 17 the first time I started going to classes at the Catholic church (I had been interested in the Catholic church for years before that, but I had no access to the only Church in my town because I had no mode of transport. We moved to walking distance to St, Olavs, and a few months later I was going to classes and attending Masses.) When I told my Mom I’d been at mass, she brought in her best friend who had been a Protestant priest to try to talk me out of it. However, she had to concede defeat, as I coulld counter pretty much every argument the woman had.

Since I was so young, I ended up going to classes for two years, at the advice of my teacher, who was also Apostolic administrator of our diocese. He thought that if I showed perseverance, my Mom would come around. And she did. When I converted, she was with me in church, even tho’ she’s an atheist. And as I’ve persevered in my faith for 14 years, she’s gotten better and better at respecting my faith.

In fact, one of the reasons I respected the Catholic Church before I converted, was that they insisted people who wanted to receive the sacraments had to wait and learn the meaning and importance of them. Faith is more than just a flash in the pan of “being born again,” it’s a process and dedication. So enjoy the process that is getting you closer to God, and to receiving the Holy Eucharist. Good luck!

 

[PJM]

=BornAgain11;5144663]My husband was born and raised Catholic. Ingrained in him from day one. 24 years catholic. He had questions, I had answers found in the Bible. So yes, he ran for his life into the loving arms of his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The only one who can make things right!

I have read other books too, I have met with priests as well…My research is all Bible backed, are you saying that the Bible is Faulty?

Dear friend,

The Bible is TRUE BUT not alway’s Factual. It is precisely that this is true that informed Christians do NOT attempt their personal interpetations.

So if you believe in the bible SOLELY please explain:

Mt. 16: 18-20 & Rev. 3:7 (referencing Peter)
Jn. 20:23-24
Jn. Ch. 6: 40-65
Mt. 26:26-28
Lk.22: 19-21
Mk.14: 22-24
1 Cor. 11-23-26
2 Cor. 9:13
Jn.15:16
Phil. 2:12
Eph.4:17
Lk.10:16
2 Thess. 9-12
1 Tim.2:3
2 Tim. 4:3-5
2 Tim.3: 13-14
James 14
James 2

Take time to look these up if you dare?

Love and prayers.

 

[pismopal]

I have always been told that reading the Bible is a good thing to do and it is…but a Christian who understands the Creed and recites it…while believing it, does not actually need anything else in terms of belief. The Creed sums up the essence of Christianity so succinctly and beautifully that further delving into the word is a manner of fleshing out our religion but I submit not essential to strong faith. It may also do more harm than good to get side tracked by words out of context…easy to do for the self deluded Bible “scholar”.
Reading the Bible is easy…even a third grader can do it but understanding Greek, or Aramaic…who said the words…to whom were they meant…why were they spoken…what hyperbole is involved…cultural nuances…historical nuances.
Excuse me if I roll my eyes when someone proclaims that they …“know a lot about the Bible because I read it all the time.”
I’ll trust the Magesterium…thank you very much

 

[jlhargus]

-Eucharist as a repperance of Jesus to be worshipped Heb 9:26, Acts 1:11, Matt 24:23 27

JL: The Eucharist is not a reappearance of Jesus, he does not reappear in his body in the form of man. The bread and wine, at the consecration become the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord. It is not a reappearance, it is a making PRESENT, under the appearance of bread and wine that same body, blood, soul and divinity who died on the cross.

Christ was not a literal door,Jn10:9, Christ was not a literal vine, Christ was not a literal lion, Christ was not a literal lamb and rivers of living water do not literally flow out of our bellies. Ask yourself, did any one misunderstand when Christ said any of the above metaphors, or any of the others he used. How many said, “how can this man be a vine?” How many complained, these are hard sayings who can hear them? How many FOLLOWED HIM NO MORE, when he said these things? NONE. Because they understood perfectly, he was speaking symbolically. Christ never held a door in his hands and said, this IS my body, Christ never took a vine in his hands and said, this IS my blood. Christ did take bread in his hands and said, this IS my body, Christ did take a cup of wine in his hands and say, this IS my blood.
When Christ said in Jn6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and THE BREAD that I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 THE JEWS therefore strove among themselves, SAYING, HOW CAN THIS MAN GIVE US HIS FLESH TO EAT? [The crowd, of Jewish unbelievers, who followed him because they were fed with the loaves and fish, questioned HOW? because they clearly understood his meaning to be literal. Had I been there I would have thought he meant to eat and drink his blood after he died.]

Jn6:53 Then JESUS SAID unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I say unto you, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON man, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED. [Jesus states it more strongly, making it even more clear, MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED. It was a hard saying, because they understood perfectly. His meaning was literal, not symbolic. A symbol would not have been A HARD SAYING, but an easy saying to accept.

Jn6:60 MANY therefore OF HIS DISCIPLES, when they had heard this, SAID, THIS IS A HARD SAYING, WHO CAN HEAR IT?] Now a second group, his DISCIPLES, is finding it a hard saying and murmured, questioning HOW.

Jn6:61 When JESUS knew in himself that HIS DISCIPLES murmured at it, he SAID unto them, DOTH THIS OFFEND YOU? [It would have offended and disgusted me, not knowing HOW I was to eat his body and drink his blood. That’s why he gives his flesh and blood to eat under the appearance of bread and wine. It does not offend or disgust, it looks, feels, smells, taste, as bread and wine. We know HOW now. We recognise him in the breaking of bread, as those on the road to Emmaus did, Lk24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, HE TOOK BREAD, and BLESSED it, AND BRAKE, and GAVE TO THEM. 31 And THEIR EYES WERE OPENED, and THEY KNEW HIM; and he vanished out of their sight. Lk24:35 And THEY TOLD what things were done in the way, and HOW HE WAS KNOWN of them IN BREAKING OF BREAD.]

Jn6:63 IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: THE WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, AND they are LIFE. 64 But THERE ARE SOME of you THAT BELIEVE NOT. For JESUS KNEW from the beginning WHO they were that BELIEVED NOT, and WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM. 65 And HE SAID, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT it were GIVEN unto HIM OF MY FATHER.

[Some say Jn6:63 proves Christ was speaking symbolically. Yet it was after saying this many of HIS DISCIPLES, not just the crowd, walked no more with him. Why would they leave if Christ confirmed a symbolic meaning? They left because they knew and took him, at his WORD, literally. Our Lord says, “no man can come unto me, EXCEPT given him OF MY FATHER”. It is the Spirit that quickeneth, not the flesh. Thinking in a carnal (flesh) mind one cannot see as our Lord says, [Jn6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE WHICH SEETH THE SON, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.] How do we see our Lord, by faith taking him at his literal WORD. We recognise him in the breaking of bread, as those on the road to Emmaus, by the Spirit of God. It is the Spirit who reveals divine truths it is not discerned by the carnal mind.

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

Jn 6:66 FROM THAT TIME MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES WENT BACK, and WALKED NO MORE WITH HIM.] First the crowd, then his disciples followed him no more. Christ then turns to the twelve apostles.

Jn6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, WILL YE ALSO GO AWAY? [Our Lord was not willing to water down his literal statement for anyone not the crowd, not his disciples and not even the twelve apostles. Not even if he had to ascend back to heaven, [Jn6:61 When JESUS knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he SAID unto them, DOTH THIS OFFEND YOU? 62 WHAT and IF YE shall SEE THE SON of man ASCEND up WHERE HE WAS before?]. Peter seems to have taken it, as a literal hard saying, not knowing HOW Christ’s flesh is food indeed and his blood drink indeed. Yet Peter accepted by that faith which is the gift of God, believing and trusting in whom Christ revealed himself to be.]

Jn6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, LORD TO WHOM SHALL WE GO? THOU HAST THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE. 69 And WE BELIEVE and are sure that THOU ART that CHRIST, the SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

70 JESUS ANSWERED them, HAVE NOT I CHOSEN YOU TWELVE, and ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL? 71 HE SPAKE OF JUDAS ISCARIOT the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. [The early Church Fathers saw this as the time Judas, no longer walked with Christ. Judas turned away from the Lord, not believing in the literal meaning of transubstantiation.]

The people of Christ’s day were also outraged, when Christ claimed to be equal to God. For them believing GOD BECAME FLESH WAS AS IMPOSSIBLE, as some find believing he is present under appearance of bread and wine. In a sense we are both right, Catholics have the real presents as taught and Protestants have a symbol as they teach.

 

[jlhargus]

-Eucharist as a repperance of Jesus to be worshipped Heb 9:26, Acts 1:11, Matt 24:23 27

JL: The mass is the wedding supper of the Lamb. What did Christ finish on the cross, Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17 Christ our High Priest had to enter the Holy of Holies with his blood, to make atonement, just as the OT High Priest entered the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice, to make atonement. Christ entered once into the true tabernacle not made by hands, were he ever lives, the Lamb of God once slain, who takes away the sins of the world as our one mediator, interceding for us bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING, this IS my body, this IS my blood, the sacrifice of the cross, showing HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD before the Father and MAKING PRESENT to his people, the Church, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. The bread of life and the blood of the Lamb.

[Ex 25:30 And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, the Lamb of God, who will stand in the midst of the throne bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father.

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[jlhargus]

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[Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating, [1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.], our propitiation for sins after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice. [Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE USN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great among THE GENTILES; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. [That PURE OFFER=sacrifice, this IS my body, this IS my blood, is our Eucharistic Lord, Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifces were clean, only Christ is PURE.]

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT … Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the hoy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:]

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.
Malacahi 1:11 …from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING] The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also… The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure.

The fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hb9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; BUT THE HEAVENLY things themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these.] [Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:] BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered .