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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Does anyone know what Church Document this is found in? I would be very interested in reading it.
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Deacon_Ed
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Pope Pius XII wrote something about this in Mediator Dei where we read:
Deacon Ed
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JKirkLVNV
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Deacon Ed:
- The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world. They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.
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pnewton
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You are absolutely right. The same can be said of the Church of the Middle Ages r of any time period.
So let us look at the current teaching of the church. The CCC in section 1239 states “Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidates’s head.”
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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So then, from this paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church I think it is safe to say that the prefered method of Baptism is immersion.
I also have another question for misericordie.
To open this thread you said…
It appears to me that you are saying you do not like immersion for Baptism (yet this is something that some protestants do that is 100% Catholic) and yet you have an issue with the style of some baptismal fonts. So what form of Baptism do you like?I am so tired of churches here in the USA that have those bird baths that pass off as “baptismal fonts.”What’s worse is that some moronic pastor comes along, destroys the beutiful church in his care, and remodels to put one of those swimming pools. For God’s sakes=do we as Roman catholics have to continue to immitate the protestants? If only THEY would immitate us in ONE single thing that’s 100% Catholic.
Does anyone have these bird baths in their church?
The style of baptismal fonts is not really a dogmatic issue. Neither is the form of Baptism as they are both acceptable. This seems to be more an issue of what one likes.
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Island_Oak
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Glad to hear things in your life are moving along so smoothly that THIS is the worst thing you have to worry about. Perhaps you could redirect the energy you are devoting to this misplaced vexation and focus on a real problem or improve the life of someone who is really suffering or in need.I am so tired of churches here in the USA that have those bird baths that pass off as “baptismal fonts.”
Does anyone have these bird baths in their church?
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JKirkLVNV
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One point I ***thought ***was being made was the wreckovation of some of the beautiful old churches to accomadate this. That’s why I said I’d yet to see one that I thought was well done, that blended in with the traditional scheme. I didn’t know he was going to go off on the whole idea of immersive baptism.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Okay, I guess I can understand that but Church Architecture is another one of those issues of style and taste and not really an issue of dogma.
What one may call “wreckovation” others may disagree.
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JKirkLVNV
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Very true, though I doubt some on this thread will agree with that most reasonable observation.
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misericordie
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Island Oak:
I will try to understand your simplistic point of view. However while I am at it, let me remind you that if the small things are not taken care of, the larger ones, much less will.
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Deacon_Ed
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But if the “small thing” that is being objected to is a legitimate practice of the Church does that not make one a Protestant? Why protest what the Church does, and does legitimately?
Deacon Ed
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Island_Oak
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Confiteor
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This thread is getting a little mean spirited…sometimes people just use this forum to express an opinion/vent about sometimes that’s been annoying them. I think that is okay! Frankly, it is nice to have a knowledgable group of people to bounce things off of, even if individuals disagree often. (For example, I disagree with the notion of adapting the Church in the US to atttract Protestants; In my opinion, we should attract them with our faith and our charity, but our liturgy should remain distinctive and universal.) Being annoyed by something or having a preference for one legitimate practice versus another does not automatically make you a Protestant or a heretic. Nor does it mean someone has no other concerns or does no charitable acts.
Also, to follow up on the Pius XII comments: I think this is the kind of language I was recalling in my last post (i.e. the ancient ways of the early Christians are not always the best for today). But keep in mind that he was not endorsing any particular contemporary practice either…He couldn’t as he was writing from the perspective of 50-60 years ago. He was simply reminding people that the HS guides the Church in every age; we just need to be listening so as not to get off track…
Also, to follow up on the Pius XII comments: I think this is the kind of language I was recalling in my last post (i.e. the ancient ways of the early Christians are not always the best for today). But keep in mind that he was not endorsing any particular contemporary practice either…He couldn’t as he was writing from the perspective of 50-60 years ago. He was simply reminding people that the HS guides the Church in every age; we just need to be listening so as not to get off track…
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OutinChgoburbs
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Have mercy!!! Calm yourselves!!! It’s only a little old (well, big old) flower pot/ bird bath/ swimming pool!:ehh:
It’s like the churches that were built in the mid-sixties to early eighties: Some were good, and some were sad, and some were very, very bad.
I saw a really nice marble one in San Antonio, Texas, think it was St. Helena’s. It was toward the back as one entered. I saw a really bad one in Texas, too, what amounted to a metal swimming pool. And then, there’s the flower pot. It wasn’t the greatest, but it was improved.
Isn’t it nice that the Church is so large, we have lots of choice in the matter? And for safety’s sake, the in-ground baptismal pools SHOULD have covers. Can’t have a Flannery Connor type instance happening with drownings, can we?
Although, there was the kiddy pool in “My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding” (Orthodox, yes, I know).
It’s like the churches that were built in the mid-sixties to early eighties: Some were good, and some were sad, and some were very, very bad.
I saw a really nice marble one in San Antonio, Texas, think it was St. Helena’s. It was toward the back as one entered. I saw a really bad one in Texas, too, what amounted to a metal swimming pool. And then, there’s the flower pot. It wasn’t the greatest, but it was improved.
Isn’t it nice that the Church is so large, we have lots of choice in the matter? And for safety’s sake, the in-ground baptismal pools SHOULD have covers. Can’t have a Flannery Connor type instance happening with drownings, can we?
Although, there was the kiddy pool in “My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding” (Orthodox, yes, I know).
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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You are apsolutly right with this but…
When an individual expresses an opinion/vent about something and tries to couch that opinon/vent as if it is Church Teaching when in reality the Church Teaching is the direct opposite, then there is an issue to be discussed and part of it is that this persons opinion/vent is not what the Church Teaches.
Especially when that person tries to make themself appear as an expert and when they belittle and denegrate those who disagree with them rather then discussing the issue but I am not thinking of anyone in particular.
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rcn
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That’s precisely the problem, you summed it up quite well. I am thinking of someone in particular, and that “someone” has a long track record of claiming their personal preferences to be official church teaching. Combined with the other points you made above, it’s most uncharitable behavior and has only served to sour thread after thread here. Why the moderators tolerate it, I can’t imagine.When an individual expresses an opinion/vent about something and tries to couch that opinon/vent as if it is Church Teaching when in reality the Church Teaching is the direct opposite … Especially when that person tries to make themself appear as an expert and when they belittle and denegrate those who disagree with them rather then discussing the issue but I am not thinking of anyone in particular.
The Church has a wide variety of APPROVED practices and disciplines, and to spew venom toward ANY of them, is just plain Wrong and Someone more important than any of us here will someday demand an accounting.
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misericordie
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In one church that once was Catholic that I know of, still calls itself that though, a person actually almost fell into the swimming pool. Can you imagine the law suit if she would have fell? At another parish that was formally semi-Catholic till a new pastor with onions and who is faithful to Catholic tradition was named, there used to be one of those things, till father had his maintenence crew sledge hammer it to pieces so that as he put it: "when a future liberal pastor comes, he won’t be tempted by his flock to “put it back.”
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misericordie
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There is a philosophical principal which states: don’t argue aginst what you yourself are doing." See your own post?
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misericordie
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Deacon Ed:
May be right deacon, but I am talking about CATHOLIC CHURCHES HERE, not semi-catholic ones.
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Purificator
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You sure seem full of hatred…I am so tired of churches here in the USA that have those bird baths that pass off as “baptismal fonts.”
Does anyone have these bird baths in their church?
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