I Am So Darn Tired!

[Purificator]

misericordie:

I am so tired of churches here in the USA that have those bird baths that pass off as “baptismal fonts.” What’s worse is that some moronic pastor comes along, destroys the beutiful church in his care, and remodels to put one of those swimming pools. For God’s sakes=do we as Roman catholics have to continue to immitate the protestants? If only THEY would immitate us in ONE single thing that’s 100% Catholic.
Does anyone have these bird baths in their church?

BTW, we use a new horse watering trough (made by Rubbermaid of plastic) covered with decorative paper. It’s embrassing…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

misericordie:

May be right deacon, but I am talking about CATHOLIC CHURCHES HERE, not semi-catholic ones.

I have to jump in here and once again, I am absolutely shocked at the confrontational approach you take misericordie. Jesus did not teach with a stick, he was ever mindful of the dignity of others and it would suit us all well to use that same approach.

You have stated objections to something that is accepted in the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is no doubt that there are plenty of abuses taking place, but this issue you have with the baptismal font is not one of them.

If you were to write the CDF or CDW about someone being denied Holy Communion because they were on their knees, or ad-libbing the Canon of the Mass, or a priest dressed like a clown, there’s little doubt the CDF and CDW would agree with you. But, you would have no case whatsoever if you were to present your argument against full immersion, even if you did so professionally, and with dignity and grace (as arguments should be presented).

Why? Because you are complaining about something that is accepted. How is your rant any different than one who complains about a priest who celebrates a Novus Ordo Mass ad orientem (which is legitimate in case some don’t know)? Or, one who argues against a priest choosing not to have the congregation show a sign of peace to each other (also a legitimiate option for the priest)?

I find myself more orthodox and traditional in my worship preferences. However, it does not give me a right to take a swing at something that is considered acceptable by the Catholic Church (that meaning in communion with Rome). The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. To say that we trust the Holy Spirit and then speak against that Church because we don’t like something in the norms, teachings, doctrines, etc., is to show an act of distrust in the Holy Spirit. You argue against something supported in many documents, among them the CCC.

Contrary to popular belief, in order to move Holy Mother Church, the Holy Spirit does not require protestors, rainbow sash wearers disrupting a Mass, dissenting theologians, nor does He need a person on a web forum to stir up controversy over something that is an accepted practice, be it more contemporary or traditional. The Church is the final arbiter, not us. Rather, our job is to accept what she offers us in humility, surrendering our will and preferences to hers.

If there is a problem with a specific and authentic, verifiable abuse, then report the problem through proper channels. If the Holy Spirit agrees with you, then nothing will stop the appropriate office from acting in due time (which can be years in Vatican time).

 

[Confiteor]

misericordie:

May be right deacon, but I am talking about CATHOLIC CHURCHES HERE, not semi-catholic ones.

Misericordie,

Have you been able to find a parish in your area whose style of worship/liturgy suits your more traditional bent? I share some of your frustrations, but as the Church does permit a wide variation of practices (and tolerates some that are not legitimate per its own documents), you might be more comfortable in a different parish. Otherwise, you end up fighting a battle that you’re doomed to lose. You can look at that as working to affect a positive change; but it can be an unnecessary frustration where other legitimate alternatives are accessible to you. In the end, that can be unhealthy, distracting and detrimental to your faith. Better to look for a community of like-minded Catholics (in communion with the Pope) if you find it impossible to submit in humility to the practices (assuming they are licit) that you find unacceptable or offensive. Even some priests are powerless when it comes to changing the “culture” of a parish. If it is the parishioners (as opposed to the pastor) driving the style of the parish, that might be the best thing. If it is the pastor, you can wait for a change of guard or come back when one occurs. May the Holy Spirit guide you in finding the best way to nourish your faith!

 

[Deacon_Ed]

misericordie:

May be right deacon, but I am talking about CATHOLIC CHURCHES HERE, not semi-catholic ones.

So was I. You know, the Church of Rome, under the Pope (he’s the guy in charge here on earty). That Church. The Church of Rome says that the signs are “more complete” when immersion baptism is performed. What you are protesting is the preferred form of baptism.

Deacon Ed

 

[SleepyGuy]

With all the talk about how protestants use full immersion and by catholics doing it, it is a protestantization. Why can’t it be the protestants doing something catholic? I dont see why it has to be a one way street. If protestants started praying the rosary, would we stop because protestants do it? I would hope not. Juts beacuse protestants do something doesnt mean its not catholic in origin.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Deacon Ed:

So was I. You know, the Church of Rome, under the Pope (he’s the guy in charge here on earty). That Church. The Church of Rome says that the signs are “more complete” when immersion baptism is performed. What you are protesting is the preferred form of baptism.

Deacon Ed

Precisely what I was getting at.

It’s one thing if the beef misericordie has is one of a verifiable abuse. But the problem here is stated against a current teaching/doctrine whatever you want to call it.

How is protesting that any different than someone protesting in favor of a clown Mass? A protest is a protest. A dissent is a dissent, whether it is progressive or traditional. Both are distrustful of the Holy Spirit when going up against Rome, or the Catholic Church in North America when it’s norms are in communion with Rome.

 

[maendem]

wannabee:

Careful here

Misericordie - I think you need a really good holiday - you have been full of “miseries” for ages

 

[pnewton]

SleepyGuy:

With all the talk about how protestants use full immersion and by catholics doing it, it is a protestantization. Why can’t it be the protestants doing something catholic? I dont see why it has to be a one way street.

YOu bring up an interesting point. I think one of the reasons is that the majority of protestant denominations understand that the Catholic church has the 2000 year history, since the time of Christ, where as they do not. Therefore there existance depends on the need for differing from the Catholic Church.

Honoring Mary is a great example. Many will bend over backwards to keep her in a lowly state, reminding each other that she is only human and ignoring the biblical directive to call her blessed. My mother, who has been a Baptist for 60+ years points this out and believes it is one area they should be more like the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand has the historical perspective of 2000 years. We can recognize truth where to the extent ist exists in any religion because we have the fullness of truth as a sure standard. Because we are called to reach into the whole world we can build on truth that we share to bring light on areas of disagreement. There is no need to worry that doing so will make us less Catholic because we have the sure foundation of Jesus and the apostles, martyrs and all the saints.

 

[adstrinity]

I have not read through the entire post, but, the church I left had this bubling baptismal font in the back of the church. It had a higher part which flowed into a lower part. The people who had not been baptized, when I made first Communion, sat in chairs in the lower part and got water poured over their heads, their bare feet in the flowing watter at the bottom. Now tell me THIS isn’t an abuse. I didn’t know how wrong it was until other people had this horrified/angry expression on their faces when I told them of this.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

adstrinity:

I have not read through the entire post, but, the church I left had this bubling baptismal font in the back of the church. It had a higher part which flowed into a lower part. The people who had not been baptized, when I made first Communion, sat in chairs in the lower part and got water poured over their heads, their bare feet in the flowing watter at the bottom. Now tell me THIS isn’t an abuse. I didn’t know how wrong it was until other people had this horrified/angry expression on their faces when I told them of this.

Its not an abuse. Please if you think it is then point show the proof of this.

There seems to be a large number of threads going on where people are calling things abuses that are not abuses but more of a matter of style and choice.

I agree with you that what was done does not appear to be proper but that is my opinion and not Church Teaching.

Sorry but many people are seeing abuses where no abuse exists.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

Baptism by immersion is actually the “norm”…I have seen infants baptized this way…What an experience.

 

[pnewton]

adstrinity:

Now tell me THIS isn’t an abuse.

It’s not an abuse.

I am curious which part you think is an abuse: the chairs, the running water, baptism by pouring?

 

[adstrinity]

pnewton:

It’s not an abuse.

I am curious which part you think is an abuse: the chairs, the running water, baptism by pouring?

Alright, perhaps it is NOT an abuse (I really don’t know, but, two people have said it is not. ). The bubling water, basically treating the baptismal font like a wishing fountain one finds in the center of a mall. That & that it is in the back of the church & not by the altar.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

adstrinity:

Alright, perhaps it is NOT an abuse (I really don’t know, but, two people have said it is not. ). The bubling water, basically treating the baptismal font like a wishing fountain one finds in the center of a mall. That & that it is in the back of the church & not by the altar.

The position of the font has varied throughout the ages. Sometimes it’s been kept in a side chapel, sometimes it’s been kept close to the front door, signifying that it is by baptism that one enters the Church. I don’t know many places, actually, where it is close to the altar.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

adstrinity:

Alright, perhaps it is NOT an abuse (I really don’t know, but, two people have said it is not. ). The bubling water, basically treating the baptismal font like a wishing fountain one finds in the center of a mall. That & that it is in the back of the church & not by the altar.

Actually the bubbling is there for a reason. It is so the water does not stagnate and grow some very foul things within it.

 

[misericordie]

Lux_et_veritas:

I have to jump in here and once again, I am absolutely shocked at the confrontational approach you take misericordie. Jesus did not teach with a stick, he was ever mindful of the dignity of others and it would suit us all well to use that same approach.

You have stated objections to something that is accepted in the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is no doubt that there are plenty of abuses taking place, but this issue you have with the baptismal font is not one of them.

If you were to write the CDF or CDW about someone being denied Holy Communion because they were on their knees, or ad-libbing the Canon of the Mass, or a priest dressed like a clown, there’s little doubt the CDF and CDW would agree with you. But, you would have no case whatsoever if you were to present your argument against full immersion, even if you did so professionally, and with dignity and grace (as arguments should be presented).

Why? Because you are complaining about something that is accepted. How is your rant any different than one who complains about a priest who celebrates a Novus Ordo Mass ad orientem (which is legitimate in case some don’t know)? Or, one who argues against a priest choosing not to have the congregation show a sign of peace to each other (also a legitimiate option for the priest)?

I find myself more orthodox and traditional in my worship preferences. However, it does not give me a right to take a swing at something that is considered acceptable by the Catholic Church (that meaning in communion with Rome). The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. To say that we trust the Holy Spirit and then speak against that Church because we don’t like something in the norms, teachings, doctrines, etc., is to show an act of distrust in the Holy Spirit. You argue against something supported in many documents, among them the CCC.

Contrary to popular belief, in order to move Holy Mother Church, the Holy Spirit does not require protestors, rainbow sash wearers disrupting a Mass, dissenting theologians, nor does He need a person on a web forum to stir up controversy over something that is an accepted practice, be it more contemporary or traditional. The Church is the final arbiter, not us. Rather, our job is to accept what she offers us in humility, surrendering our will and preferences to hers.

If there is a problem with a specific and authentic, verifiable abuse, then report the problem through proper channels. If the Holy Spirit agrees with you, then nothing will stop the appropriate office from acting in due time (which can be years in Vatican time).

Maybe, but you still need to learn that these are open opinion forums, besides the fact that I am an American, in America exercising my free speech clause.

 

[misericordie]

Deacon Ed:

So was I. You know, the Church of Rome, under the Pope (he’s the guy in charge here on earty). That Church. The Church of Rome says that the signs are “more complete” when immersion baptism is performed. What you are protesting is the preferred form of baptism.

Deacon Ed

Maybe in the early church (when it was still in diapers) and then the church grew up, and in the last 30 or so years it was stunted in a liturgical adolecence, of which it is still in. The flies and mosquitos that the swimming pools in back of churches collect, besides that some homeless people bath and wash their hands there are sufficient reasons to eliminate the birdbaths.

 

[misericordie]

It is a philosophical fallacy to not confont a thesis, but rather to attack the one who argues the thesis. Maybe a course titled logic 101 can help you here?

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

Actually the bubbling is there for a reason. It is so the water does not stagnate and grow some very foul things within it.

I have seen people come off the street and wash their arm pits in those, literally.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

misericordie:

Maybe in the early church (when it was still in diapers) and then the church grew up, and in the last 30 or so years it was stunted in a liturgical adolecence, of which it is still in. The flies and mosquitos that the swimming pools in back of churches collect, besides that some homeless people bath and wash their hands there are sufficient reasons to eliminate the birdbaths.

My parish installed a baptismal pool about eight years ago. We’ve never had a problem with flies or mosquitos. Yes, we have had problems with homeless people. But, then again, St. Lawrence considered them the treasure of the Church.

It’s also not a question of “growing up” but of allowing the symbols that we had minimized return to their original form.

Deacon Ed