I Am So Darn Tired!

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

Maybe, but you still need to learn that these are open opinion forums, besides the fact that I am an American, in America exercising my free speech clause.

True, but the problem is that you put forward your opinion as Church Teaching, when it clearly is not, and then denigrate those who disagree with you, questioning their age/education/knowledge, rather than supporting your opinion.

It just happens that our opinion matches what the Church Teaches where your opinion is protesting against it.

And also do not forget, that we have exactly the same rights.

misericordie:

It is a philosophical fallacy to not confont a thesis, but rather to attack the one who argues the thesis. Maybe a course titled logic 101 can help you here?

I think its time you start to practice what you preach.

misericordie:

I have seen people come off the street and wash their arm pits in those, literally.

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

misericordie:

Maybe in the early church (when it was still in diapers) and then the church grew up, and in the last 30 or so years it was stunted in a liturgical adolecence, of which it is still in. The flies and mosquitos that the swimming pools in back of churches collect, besides that some homeless people bath and wash their hands there are sufficient reasons to eliminate the birdbaths.

This is truly objectionable! It is bad history and bad churchmanship to say that the early Church, the Church of the Apostolic Age, was in diapers. It has no foundation in sound scholarship or sound devotion, but rather smacks of an idolitrous regard for the Council of Trent ( in your case) over anything else that has ever happened in the history of the Church (there have been LOTS of councils and 265 popes). The Church has never been in diapers. Her theology has developed and expanded as a result of lots of things, like the rise of heresy, and in the context of this thread, you’re basically saying,“Well, when the Church was in diapers, she didn’t KNOW any better than to baptize by immersion, but now that she’s all grown up and wearing Armani, she knows she can just pour water over the head.” Stop attempting to pass off your personal views as Church teaching.

 

[pnewton]

misericordie:

It is a philosophical fallacy to not confont a thesis, but rather to attack the one who argues the thesis. Maybe a course titled logic 101 can help you here?

You are now objecting to the word “Amen”? What about that free speech spiel you just gave?

 

[pnewton]

JKirkLVNV:

, but rather smacks of an idolitrous regard for the Council of Trent

I was thinking of how many different ways that people filter through all the doctrine of Catholicism and the phrase “snapshot Catholic” popped into my head fo rthis phenomena of prefering one era as the “most truly Catholic” time. For many, immediately following Trent would be this time, for others immediatly prior to Vatican II. Some prefer the first century (we call these Protestants). No doubt many “progressive” Catholics will look back to the 70’s as their heyday.

I heard a priest say that we must not forget that the church did not stop with Vatican II. We have had 50 years to grow wince then. So, of course, If you are alive today, it is this day to which we must look.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

pnewton:

I was thinking of how many different ways that people filter through all the doctrine of Catholicism and the phrase “snapshot Catholic” popped into my head fo rthis phenomena of prefering one era as the “most truly Catholic” time. For many, immediately following Trent would be this time, for others immediatly prior to Vatican II. Some prefer the first century (we call these Protestants). No doubt many “progressive” Catholics will look back to the 70’s as their heyday.

I heard a priest say that we must not forget that the church did not stop with Vatican II. We have had 50 years to grow wince then. So, of course, If you are alive today, it is this day to which we must look.

The following is from the Most Rev. Phillip Stralling, Bishop of Reno, Nevada, on a comment he heard HH Pope John Paul II at a lunch the Bishop attended. I try and remember it when I get worked up about something:

"I have had the opportunity to con-celebrate Mass with the Holy Father in his private chapel, attend general audiences, and most special, to have lunch with the Holy Father with ten to fifteen other bishops. I recall one of these lunches when a bishop spoke about “fanatics”. The Pope asked for a definition of the word “fanatic”. After receiving an answer, he responded “I understand: a fanatic is one who thinks a piece of the pie is the whole pie.”

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Please review posts before sending for tone and personal remarks.

Self editing in this manner will help keep the thread on subject track and open.

 

[SMHW]

adstrinity:

That & that it is in the back of the church & not by the altar.

Actually, I believe the idea of putting the font (of any kind) in the front of a church is a fairly recent innovation (last 40 years or so.)

I happen to like the baptismal pools if they are tastefully done but I think they should generally be reserved for new churches so that they can be incorporated into the architecture of the building. And I think they should be in the back where they are not a distraction during the Mass.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

SMHW:

Actually, I believe the idea of putting the font (of any kind) in the front of a church is a fairly recent innovation (last 40 years or so.)

I happen to like the baptismal pools if they are tastefully done but I think they should generally be reserved for new churches so that they can be incorporated into the architecture of the building. And I think they should be in the back where they are not a distraction during the Mass.

I thought that baptisms should occur during the Mass now though.

I am not all that up on the way things are done but are baptisms done with a Mass before the Mass or during it?

In the Byzantine Church the baptism and chrismation (confirmation) take place before the start of the Divine Liturgy but are always done with a Divine Liturgy as the person who is being baptized/chrismate also recieves first Eucharst then.

 

[SMHW]

ByzCath:

I thought that baptisms should occur during the Mass now though.

I am not all that up on the way things are done but are baptisms done with a Mass before the Mass or during it?

In the Byzantine Church the baptism and chrismation (confirmation) take place before the start of the Divine Liturgy but are always done with a Divine Liturgy as the person who is being baptized/chrismate also recieves first Eucharst then.

My church has a baptismal pool in the back but it is still in the main body of the church so people can turn around and see what is happening. (Well at least as well as they can see what’s happening in the front.) But this last weekend I was travelling and two infants were baptized during the Mass. In this case, they had a big bowl filled with water sitting on a table in front of and slightly to the side of the altar. The babies were baptized there.

I have no problem with temporary setups like that and if it gets to the point where baptisms occur at all Sunday masses I would agree that it makes sense to have a permanent font where people can see it, even if that means it must be in the front of a church. But I don’t think having a font in front is the ideal if another location in the main body of the church is available.

 

[adstrinity]

Do you understand that there are no fonts at the main doors (though, I think there is one by the side doors), but the people who come in to bless themselves (those who know to do so) do it by using the watter in the top part of this fountain thing? This is okay with everybody? I was reading the book, “Ugly as Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces-- and How We Can Change Them Back Again” by Michael S. Rose and just kept nodding at the last half of the book while being envious of the first half. Maybe it’s just me who perfers the smallness & quiteness of a classic designed church…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

adstrinity:

Do you understand that there are no fonts at the main doors (though, I think there is one by the side doors), but the people who come in to bless themselves (those who know to do so) do it by using the watter in the top part of this fountain thing? This is okay with everybody? I was reading the book, “Ugly as Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces-- and How We Can Change Them Back Again” by Michael S. Rose and just kept nodding at the last half of the book while being envious of the first half. Maybe it’s just me who perfers the smallness & quiteness of a classic designed church…

It is right to bless yourself with the water from the baptismal font.

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

True, but the problem is that you put forward your opinion as Church Teaching, when it clearly is not, and then denigrate those who disagree with you, questioning their age/education/knowledge, rather than supporting your opinion.

It just happens that our opinion matches what the Church Teaches where your opinion is protesting against it.

And also do not forget, that we have exactly the same rights.

I think its time you start to practice what you preach.

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Interesting how you acuse me of placing my personal views into church teaching, but in a very subjective way you even mention tea of China. It seems you cannot stand corrected and have a problem with theological discussion as per you take all personally. I could imagine you getting a fit of anger if you were back in the middle ages during the disputes of the great theological academics of for example the University of Paris. Argumentation is a gift, as time passes you may earn that gift, but as of now=logic is missing in your views.

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

I thought that baptisms should occur during the Mass now though.

I am not all that up on the way things are done but are baptisms done with a Mass before the Mass or during it?

In the Byzantine Church the baptism and chrismation (confirmation) take place before the start of the Divine Liturgy but are always done with a Divine Liturgy as the person who is being baptized/chrismate also recieves first Eucharst then.

May work for the Byzantine rite, but here we are talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church.

 

[misericordie]

adstrinity:

Do you understand that there are no fonts at the main doors (though, I think there is one by the side doors), but the people who come in to bless themselves (those who know to do so) do it by using the watter in the top part of this fountain thing? This is okay with everybody? I was reading the book, “Ugly as Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces-- and How We Can Change Them Back Again” by Michael S. Rose and just kept nodding at the last half of the book while being envious of the first half. Maybe it’s just me who perfers the smallness & quiteness of a classic designed church…

Michael Rose is great. His book is even better. Funny how many modern church buildings look like pentecostal meeting rooms.
Oh by the way, once I saw an older fellow take some holy water home from one of those pools in church, and ten minutes before a homeless guy was washing his face and hands there. The older fellow actually took a sip of the “holy water” too. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_218v.gif

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

May work for the Byzantine rite, but here we are talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church.

Please show me where the Roman Church teaches not to bless yourself with the Holy Water from the baptismal font.

And if you would go back and read my reply again, you will see that I am aware of this. I actually asked a question about the Latin rite practice and then just added a comment about what we do in the Byzantine rite.

Seems you are making an issue where there is none.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

Michael Rose is great. His book is even better. Funny how many modern church buildings look like pentecostal meeting rooms.
Oh by the way, once I saw an older fellow take some holy water home from one of those pools in church, and ten minutes before a homeless guy was washing his face and hands there. The older fellow actually took a sip of the “holy water” too. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_218v.gif

Church architecture is not a matter of dogma, it is a matter of taste. Just becuase you, or I, do not like it does not make it bad.

By the way, as a former member of a pentecostal denomination, what is a pentecostal meeting room?

Could it be like the upper room where the Apostles met on Pentecost?

Now I agree that drinking Holy Water that someone may have used to clean themselves in is a bit unsanitary you are aware that there is an ancient practice of drinking Holy Water, this has been kept alive in the Byzantine Churches. And before you come back with “we are talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church”, you have no way of knowing the Church membership of the individual you saw drinking the Holy Water.

 

[Libertas_cordis]

St. Bernard of Clairvaux was also critical of Church architecture.

You can read his letter here St. Bernard of Clairvaux on architecture & Church

I too am saddened by the number of churches with over-sized hot tubs for Baptismals.

I own a two person Jacuzzi brand tub and know full well the added expense and care necessary to maintain such an item. If I had it to do over again I never would have had one installed in my home.
With the added expense and maintenance alone in mind I believe that large immersion tubs are not needed.
The trickling or flowing sound of the water is a distraction during Mass.
For years we survived without them! It is indeed a strange trend. When will it lose momentum? Maybe when the money runs out to maintain or repair them?

 

[adstrinity]

ByzCath:

By the way, as a former member of a pentecostal denomination, what is a pentecostal meeting room?

Could it be like the upper room where the Apostles met on Pentecost?

Kind of & pretty much. A pentecostal meeting room is a plain, unadorned . . . plain . . . room. Nothing grand or spectacular or even telling about it. It’s just a room. Barely noticable or indistinguishable from any other room. It may (and probably does) contain a cross, possibly (but, probably not) an altar, candles, etc. It’s just a plain room that’s used for meetings &/or Sunday gatherings. It is different from a Catholic Church in that that church would have a cross, crucifix, pews (all facing the same way (ideally)), altar, candles, fonts, etc.

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

Please show me where the Roman Church teaches not to bless yourself with the Holy Water from the baptismal font.

And if you would go back and read my reply again, you will see that I am aware of this. I actually asked a question about the Latin rite practice and then just added a comment about what we do in the Byzantine rite.

Seems you are making an issue where there is none.

WHY do you continue to twist my words to make it convenient for you? Please be objective and less emotional/hysterical.

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

Church architecture is not a matter of dogma, it is a matter of taste. Just becuase you, or I, do not like it does not make it bad.

By the way, as a former member of a pentecostal denomination, what is a pentecostal meeting room?

Could it be like the upper room where the Apostles met on Pentecost?

Now I agree that drinking Holy Water that someone may have used to clean themselves in is a bit unsanitary you are aware that there is an ancient practice of drinking Holy Water, this has been kept alive in the Byzantine Churches. And before you come back with “we are talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church”, you have no way of knowing the Church membership of the individual you saw drinking the Holy Water./QUOTEAll, I rest my case: and this certifies my suspicions: “as a former member of a pentecostal denomination” etc. Could it be that his whole theological schooling including based on church architecture, is still seeping with pentecostalism?