I am still being told, here at CAF, that my understanding of sola scriptura is lacking, so I guess I am still attempting to learn.....

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I am still being told, here at CAF, that my understanding of sola scriptura is lacking, so I guess I am still attempting to learn.

SS advocates, are you referring to the bible alone (sola scriptura) - as the Christians final authority via private judgment?
 
I am still being told, here at CAF, that my understanding of sola scriptura is lacking, so I guess I am still attempting to learn.

SS advocates, are you referring to the bible alone (sola scriptura) - as the Christians final authority via private judgment?
Actually, no. SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, ***as opposed to ***individual interpretation.

Jon
 
Actually, no. SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, ***as opposed to ***individual interpretation.

Jon
But how does that work in real life? Two people can read the same passages in the Bible and completely disagree about their meaning. Take for example John chapter 6… Catholics & Lutherans would read those verses and say that Jesus was clearly speaking of his literal body and blood. An Evangelical Christian would read those same verses and say not so… He was speaking symbolically.

Without Church authority or Tradition, who is to say which group is correct? Doesn’t it simply become a matter of opinion?

Baptism is another example… within Christianity there are so many different views of baptism based on scripture. It saves, it’s a work and doesn’t save, infants should be baptized, believing adults should be baptized etc. etc. I could quote scripture to support each of those views… doesn’t it then automatically become a matter of one’s interpretation of the verses?
 
=yellowbird;7262040]But how does that work in real life? Two people can read the same passages in the Bible and completely disagree about their meaning. Take for example John chapter 6… Catholics & Lutherans would read those verses and say that Jesus was clearly speaking of his literal body and blood. An Evangelical Christian would read those same verses and say not so… He was speaking symbolically.
Without Church authority or Tradition, who is to say which group is correct? Doesn’t it simply become a matter of opinion?
Agreed. I as a Lutheran, on matters of doctrine, am bound to what my communion teaches, The Book of Concord. In this area, for me to be Lutheran, I have no room for personal interpretation.
Baptism is another example… within Christianity there are so many different views of baptism based on scripture. It saves, it’s a work and doesn’t save, infants should be baptized, believing adults should be baptized etc. etc. I could quote scripture to support each of those views… doesn’t it then automatically become a matter of one’s interpretation of the verses?
It may be a matter of interpretation, and the fact is some interpretations are wrong. This isn’t a just a fact of SS, but also a fact of Sacred Tradition. The CC and EOC, as well as some others to practice Tradition and scripture for hermeneutics, also do not completely agree.

Jon
 
But how does that work in real life? Two people can read the same passages in the Bible and completely disagree about their meaning. Take for example John chapter 6… Catholics & Lutherans would read those verses and say that Jesus was clearly speaking of his literal body and blood. An Evangelical Christian would read those same verses and say not so… He was speaking symbolically.

Without Church authority or Tradition, who is to say which group is correct? Doesn’t it simply become a matter of opinion?

Baptism is another example… within Christianity there are so many different views of baptism based on scripture. It saves, it’s a work and doesn’t save, infants should be baptized, believing adults should be baptized etc. etc. I could quote scripture to support each of those views… doesn’t it then automatically become a matter of one’s interpretation of the verses?
The Catholic Church is a shining example of the fact that it doesn’t matter if one claims to have an infallible interpreter, that still there exists stark divisions in the Church of Rome. Is the Protestant a separated brother or anathema? Is Vatican II infallible or is it not? Is it absolute necessity for salvation that we are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff or not? Is eating meat on Fridays during Lent a mortal sin or not?

JonNC is right with
Actually, no. SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, as opposed to individual interpretation
.

The fact that people disagree with one another on Biblical interpretation is not a failure of its sufficiency, or otherwise the argument would backfire on Rome and show Rome’s Magisterium to be equally insufficient.

As Dr. James White stated:
“Let’s say James Akin writes the PERFECT textbook on logic. It is completely perspicuous: It is fully illustrated, completely consistent, and it provides answers to all the tough questions in plain, understandable terminology. It covers all the bases. Now, would it follow, then, that every other person who consulted this textbook would agree with every other person who consulted this textbook on matters of logic? Well, of course not…Now the question I have to ask is this: Is there something wrong with Mr. Akin’s textbook if it does not produce complete unanimity on questions logical? Is the problem in the “textbook” or in the people “using” the textbook?”

The so-called “infallible interpreter” of Rome just adds more debate to the fire than Scripture itself does. It is not the fault of Scripture that others find disagreement with it.
And having a Magisterium has NOT prevented disagreements in the Catholic Church.
Without Church authority or Tradition, who is to say which group is correct? Doesn’t it simply become a matter of opinion?
Or, furthermore, when the Catholic has an argument on doctrine, can they call the Magisterium for a ruling? And will that ruling solves the problem or add fuel to the debate? Once again the point must be noted that a so-called infallible human interpreter has done nothing to alleviate debate amongst Catholics.

The Bible is clear with regards to salvation, or otherwise the apostle John would have been false when he stated “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31) Peter informs us that there are “some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction”, but he does not say even these hard things are unknowable. Where the problem lies is in the assertion by John, “The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” Those who reside in the darkness cannot see the light.

The Catholic claim about the necessity of an infallible human interpreter means Scripture is only knowable to a select few who claim to know Scripture so well that they can point out who is correct and who is in error. The very nature of Gnosticism!

Based on the debate here: philvaz.com/apologetics/a60.htm
 
Here is a link to a marvelous (and fairly short, only a few paragraphs) definition and explanation of sola Scriptura from one of the most respected teachers in the evangelical world, a recognized expert on Protestant doctrines, and IMO, one of the most knowledgeable and respectful evangelicals when it comes to Catholicism–R.C. Sproul, Jr.:
ligonier.org/blog/sola-scriptura-bible/

He makes it clear that the traditional understanding of sola Scriptura is not just “a person and their Bible.”

I would be interested in how the Catholic apologists would counter Sproul’s arguments.

I am NOT an advocate of sola Scriptura, BTW. I believe it is the doctrine of the devil himself, straight from the pit of hell, one of the most evil and anti-Christ doctrines ever devised in the dark places of someone’s human brain. Am I making myself clear here? This doctrine nearly destroyed my faith and it did destroy my younger daughter’s faith. I pray to the Blessed Virgin that she will plead with her Son to have mercy on my daughter after what happened to us in the name of sola Scriptura. I believe Jesus will answer the Blessed Mother’s prayer on my daughter’s behalf.
 
Agreed. I as a Lutheran, on matters of doctrine, am bound to what my communion teaches, The Book of Concord. ** In this area, for me to be Lutheran, I have no room for personal interpretation. **

It may be a matter of interpretation, and the fact is some interpretations are wrong. This isn’t a just a fact of SS, but also a fact of Sacred Tradition. The CC and EOC, as well as some others to practice Tradition and scripture for hermeneutics, also do not completely agree.

Jon
Jon…then your Lutheran side, who settles matters of interpretation? Is there something akin to the RC’s Magisterium?

pablo
 
Jon…then your Lutheran side, who settles matters of interpretation? Is there something akin to the RC’s Magisterium?

pablo
As LCMS, I look to the leaders within my synod. Its where we turn when a matter of doctrine arises, be it between a congregation and its pastor, or otherwise. Those leaders, in following, are held to scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

Jon
 
Agreed. I as a Lutheran, on matters of doctrine, am bound to what my communion teaches, The Book of Concord. In this area, for me to be Lutheran, I have no room for personal interpretation.

Jon
How is that scripture is your only authority then? If you’d refer to another book, isn’t that the same thing Catholics would do - albeit a different book?
 
How is that scripture is your only authority then? If you’d refer to another book, isn’t that the same thing Catholics would do - albeit a different book?
It is and it isn’t. For lack of a better term, Lutherans have a hierarchy. While scripture is the final norm, by which we hold accountable all teachings and teachers, that doesn’t exclude Tradition. Lutherans hold that the Augsburg Confession, particularly, and The Book of Concord in general rightly reflects scripture, as do the three creeds. IOW, we don’t hold them equal to scripture.
Lutherans have never taught that the early councils, the ECF’s, etc. should be rejected out of hand, like some who have distorted sola scriptura have, only that they are subject to scripture. That is why I said in post #2, that SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, as opposed to individual interpretation.

Jon
 
Here is a link to a marvelous (and fairly short, only a few paragraphs) definition and explanation of sola Scriptura from one of the most respected teachers in the evangelical world, a recognized expert on Protestant doctrines, and IMO, one of the most knowledgeable and respectful evangelicals when it comes to Catholicism–R.C. Sproul, Jr.:
ligonier.org/blog/sola-scriptura-bible/

He makes it clear that the traditional understanding of sola Scriptura is not just “a person and their Bible.”
I think Sproul’s description is actually reasonably accurate in the first couple of paragraphs, but then after that, things go downhill. Many Evangelicals are very confused about this, as Sproul obliquely points out, so the OP’er should be aware of this as well. Sola scriptura does not = interpretive free-for-all.

Also, every Christian group has its own interpretive tradition that they follow, whether they admit it or not.

Sola scriptura is about final authority, not about what is or is not “infallible.” Sola scriptura generally supports tradition, unless tradition conflicts with Scripture.

JonNC’s doing a good job of explaining this, imo.
 
It is and it isn’t. For lack of a better term, Lutherans have a hierarchy. While scripture is the final norm, by which we hold accountable all teachings and teachers, that doesn’t exclude Tradition. Lutherans hold that the Augsburg Confession, particularly, and The Book of Concord in general rightly reflects scripture, as do the three creeds. IOW, we don’t hold them equal to scripture.
Lutherans have never taught that the early councils, the ECF’s, etc. should be rejected out of hand, like some who have distorted sola scriptura have, only that they are subject to scripture. That is why I said in post #2, that SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, as opposed to individual interpretation.

Jon
If i am not mistaken; John, you have described your beleief on this matter regarding how what you do is not the same as catholics.

Could you expalin how it is the same.
 
I think Sproul’s description is actually reasonably accurate in the first couple of paragraphs, but then after that, things go downhill. Many Evangelicals are very confused about this, as Sproul obliquely points out, so the OP’er should be aware of this as well. Sola scriptura does not = interpretive free-for-all.
 
I think Sproul’s description is actually reasonably accurate in the first couple of paragraphs, but then after that, things go downhill. Many Evangelicals are very confused about this, as Sproul obliquely points out, so the OP’er should be aware of this as well. Sola scriptura does not = interpretive free-for-all.

Also, every Christian group has its own interpretive tradition that they follow, whether they admit it or not.
looking at the landscape of christianity it getting closer by the yr.

Sola scriptura is about final authority, not about what is or is not “infallible.” Sola scriptura generally supports tradition, unless tradition conflicts with Scripture.

JonNC’s doing a good job of explaining this, imo.But in John’s case he will explain the need of a final source outside of scripture.
 
That is why I said in post #2, that SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, as opposed to individual interpretation.
This is confusing, as scripture does not interpret itself, and it can be readily seen by different interpretations that the “final norm” must become the interpretation (or at least reflect it). I can’t see how anyone who uses scripture can get around this fact.
 
The Catholic Church is a shining example of the fact that it doesn’t matter if one claims to have an infallible interpreter, that still there exists stark divisions in the Church of Rome.
Irrelevant to the OP, and I disagree with you. Please address the OP???
Is the Protestant a separated brother or anathema? Is Vatican II infallible or is it not? Is it absolute necessity for salvation that we are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff or not? Is eating meat on Fridays during Lent a mortal sin or not?
Irrelevant to the OP. I am really looking for an answer to the OP, just as JonNC has answered it. Thanks.
JonNC is right with .
So you agree with JonNC regarding sola scriptura; Jon said:

Actually, no. SS is the practice of holding scripture as the final norm, as opposed to individual interpretation.
The fact that people disagree with one another on Biblical interpretation is not a failure of its sufficiency, or otherwise the argument would backfire on Rome and show Rome’s Magisterium to be equally insufficient.
Irrelevant to the OP. I am asking you for help regarding the definitive response on sola scriptura???
The so-called “infallible interpreter” of Rome just adds more debate to the fire than Scripture itself does. It is not the fault of Scripture that others find disagreement with it.
And having a Magisterium has NOT prevented disagreements in the Catholic Church.
Irrelevant to the OP. I was hoping to really stay on course with this thread. I want to understand sola scriptura.
Or, furthermore, when the Catholic has an argument on doctrine, can they call the Magisterium for a ruling? And will that ruling solves the problem or add fuel to the debate? Once again the point must be noted that a so-called infallible human interpreter has done nothing to alleviate debate amongst Catholics.
Irrelevant to the OP. :confused:
The Bible is clear with regards to salvation, or otherwise the apostle John would have been false when he stated “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
Agreed, but that is not all that is required, according to the bible, but this too is irrelevant to the OP. The bible also tells us that there are some tough things found in the bible that are hard to understand.
The Catholic claim about the necessity of an infallible human interpreter means Scripture is only knowable to a select few who claim to know Scripture so well that they can point out who is correct and who is in error. The very nature of Gnosticism!
Also irrelevant to the OP. I ask you to define SS and you talk about the CC. Why not address the OP; I already know your views on the CC. :confused::confused::confused:
 
This is confusing, as scripture does not interpret itself, and it can be readily seen by different interpretations that the “final norm” must become the interpretation (or at least reflect it). I can’t see how anyone who uses scripture can get around this fact.
Rebecca, I agree 100% with you. Always bothered me as a former non-Catholic.
 
Hey Jon, thanks for answering my question and I am hoping other non-Catholics will agree with you regarding SS, so that no one else here at CAF will tell me that my understanding of SS is “lacking.”
 
Here is a link to a marvelous (and fairly short, only a few paragraphs) definition and explanation of sola Scriptura from one of the most respected teachers in the evangelical world, a recognized expert on Protestant doctrines, and IMO, one of the most knowledgeable and respectful evangelicals when it comes to Catholicism–R.C. Sproul, Jr.:
ligonier.org/blog/sola-scriptura-bible/

He makes it clear that the traditional understanding of sola Scriptura is not just “a person and their Bible.”

I would be interested in how the Catholic apologists would counter Sproul’s arguments.

I am NOT an advocate of sola Scriptura, BTW. I believe it is the doctrine of the devil himself, straight from the pit of hell, one of the most evil and anti-Christ doctrines ever devised in the dark places of someone’s human brain. Am I making myself clear here? This doctrine nearly destroyed my faith and it did destroy my younger daughter’s faith. I pray to the Blessed Virgin that she will plead with her Son to have mercy on my daughter after what happened to us in the name of sola Scriptura. I believe Jesus will answer the Blessed Mother’s prayer on my daughter’s behalf.
Sproul said…
No, the Bible is God’s Word. It is perspicuous, understandable.** It says what it means and means what it says.** It is attested by the miraculous power of God. And it is all these things, alone. It alone, all by itself, equips us for every good work. Flee anyone who tells you that more is required to understand, or more is required to obey.
I first would point out… Jesus gave the world his CHURCH to; “Teach, Rebuke, Train and to Correct”! This is scripture!

Jesus said he would; “ALWAYS be with his CHURCH to the very end of the Age”, AND… To be Protestant, Sproul has to believe Jesus lied… That the scriptures lie… That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his Church, that Jesus had to leave his Church to be with the thousands of Protestant churches… OTHERWISE where is no Protest!
** It says what it means and means what it says.**??

I would point out John 6 and ask him why; Jesus would say… “My flesh is real food” then say…“Forgetaboutit, all I just TAUGHT was just a lot of hot air…truly my flesh is of no value!”
“My flash is NOT real food”!
** It says what it means and means what it says.**???

I would point out the Orthodox and the Catholic split in 1054 A.D. and to this day BOTH the Catholic & the Orthodox still believe the Bread is the flesh of Jesus and the Wine is the blood of Jesus… PROVING…
Proving from day one… The Early Church believe the words of Jesus in John 6 literally, word for word!

Dogknox
 
Sproul said…

I first would point out… Jesus gave the world his CHURCH to; “Teach, Rebuke, Train and to Correct”! This is scripture!

Jesus said he would; “ALWAYS be with his CHURCH to the very end of the Age”, AND… To be Protestant, Sproul has to believe Jesus lied… That the scriptures lie… That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his Church, that Jesus had to leave his Church to be with the thousands of Protestant churches… OTHERWISE where is no Protest!
** It says what it means and means what it says.**??

I would point out John 6 and ask him why; Jesus would say… “My flesh is real food” then say…“Forgetaboutit, all I just TAUGHT was just a lot of hot air…truly my flesh is of no value!”
“My flash is NOT real food”!
** It says what it means and means what it says.**???

I would point out the Orthodox and the Catholic split in 1054 A.D. and to this day BOTH the Catholic & the Orthodox still believe the Bread is the flesh of Jesus and the Wine is the blood of Jesus… PROVING…
Proving from day one… The Early Church believe the words of Jesus in John 6 literally, word for word!

Dogknox
:clapping:
 
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