I Am The Mind of the Universe

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catharina said:
What say I? Same as earlier.

Jesus is God. Jesus has been seen. You say no one has seen God. You imagine you can say that (as a Christian?) since in a little tiny secret corner of your mind you REALLY meant no one has seen the Father. Oh. How helpful. So since the folks who have seen Jesus saw only the Son, they did NOT see God??? They saw a slightly LESS-ER form of God?

You’ve dug quite a hole for yourself.
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I posited the difference between God the Father and God the Son in my posting some time back. When I speak of God, I speak of the Father. When I speak of Jesus, I speak of Him as the Son. How do you refer to them? :confused:

Are God the Father and God the Son the same person? The Lord said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, yes. Was He speaking in terms of physicality? Or was He speaking in terms of holiness, righteousness and strength?

Jesus is not lesser than God the Father. They are one as He said so Himself. But He never said He WAS God the Father. Two distinct personages.

I’ve dug no hole. You just don’t understand what I’m telling you. If all you can offer is quick quips of rhetoric then we have nothing to discuss further. Your fellow Catholic above me posted a reasonable response with no rhetoric and with civility. You have done neither.

Go in peace.

MW
 
catharina said:
I would be most interested in hearing what Christian churches are now declaring their living members to be mystics. (News to me.)
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That’s the problem. You are thinking only in Catholic forms of government, which I don’t accept. A church doesn’t declare one a mystic. A mystic “is”. Your church may declare who is a saint and who is a mystic, but I don’t accept that authority, nor do I accept the rationale behind it.

You haven’t even tried to look at my side of understanding, but instead force your own limited view that leaves no room for dialogue. I know your side. I understand it. I don’t agree with it. But, at least I understand it.

Mysticism is a private affair, not a public one. If you know anything about mysticism you should know that. Therefore, why should I declare a private matter to a church authority for clarification on what’s going on within my own self?

MW
 
Oh, I get it. I’m arguing with you about your Post # 4 (where you stated the lie that no one has seen God) and you then went on in Post #6 to say that your thinking gets TRICKY because you HADN’T said what you’d meant to say. I get it now. Clear as mud. You were called on your error and you revised it. So cool. You got trapped and you caved. Very very fine. See ya’.
 
catharina said:
Oh, I get it. I’m arguing with you about your Post # 4 (where you stated the lie that no one has seen God) and you then went on in Post #6 to say that your thinking gets TRICKY because you HADN’T said what you’d meant to say. I get it now. Clear as mud. You were called on your error and you revised it. So cool. You got trapped and you caved. Very very fine. See ya’.
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No one has seen God. Look it up. No, you are putting words in my mouth. Good luck to you and go in peace. We have nothing further to discuss. I don’t converse with people who behave this way. I’ve tried to explain myself over and over and you just don’t understand.

If you want to think you are right and have “one-upped me”, then so be it. I have no vain desire to do so to you.

MW
 
Nita said:
I think yours is having a heyday 🙂

Nita
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Thank you. Ever so kind of you to say so. This reminds me of the hypocrisy of those who say they follow Christ yet fail to heed his admonitions of humility and mutual respect. I have no need of Catholicism given the way some of its members behave.

While I sought open dialogue and mutual benefit you sought to offer rhetoric and insults.

Go in peace.

MW
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
No one has seen God. Look it up.

MW
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Exodus 33:
18
Then Moses said, “Do let me see your glory!”
19
He answered, “I will make all my beauty pass before you, and in your presence I will pronounce my name, ‘LORD’; I who show favors to whom I will, I who grant mercy to whom I will.
20
But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives.
21
Here,” continued the LORD, “is a place near me where you shall station yourself on the rock.
22
When my glory passes I will set you in the hollow of the rock and will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
23
Then I will remove my hand, so that you may see my back; but my face is not to be seen.”

John 14:
8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
 
anthony022071 said:
Exodus 33:
18
Then Moses said, “Do let me see your glory!”
19
He answered, “I will make all my beauty pass before you, and in your presence I will pronounce my name, ‘LORD’; I who show favors to whom I will, I who grant mercy to whom I will.
20
But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives.
21
Here,” continued the LORD, “is a place near me where you shall station yourself on the rock.
22
When my glory passes I will set you in the hollow of the rock and will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
23
Then I will remove my hand, so that you may see my back; but my face is not to be seen.”

John 14:
8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
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I want to show some passages also:

<< 1 John 4:12 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

<<1 Timothy 6:16 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

<< John 1:18 >>
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB ©1995)

<< John 6:46 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

First, thank you for not insulting me straight away.

Second, we could cite verses all day long. I think we have to understand what we are reading.

My understanding (limited I realize) is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God and God the Son is a different “person” than the Father. While they are one in nature and purpose they are not the same.

When Christ says that people who have seen Him have seen the Father, I believe He is talking about nature and purpose, not physical resemblance.

That’s what I’m trying to get across to other people. Am I just not explaining myself right or do you see what I am getting at?

Peace…

MW
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
Thank you. Ever so kind of you to say so. This reminds me of the hypocrisy of those who say they follow Christ yet fail to heed his admonitions of humility and mutual respect. I have no need of Catholicism given the way some of its members behave.

While I sought open dialogue and mutual benefit you sought to offer rhetoric and insults.

Go in peace.

MW
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I see you’re reasonably new to the forum. The smiley face indicates friendly joshing. Sorry you took it as an insult.

Have reread your posts and you seem to put aside the second Person of the Trinity when it comes to whose image and likeness we are made in. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to indicate that the Genesis verses should be understood only as applying to the image and likeness of the Father. It’s interesting that Gen 1:26 says “Let us make man in our image.” We are made in the image of God - a Triune God. I’m not familiar with any passage that says we are made in the image of only one of the Persons, namely the Father.

We do have a spiritual part (soul) which was created in God’s image and likeness. But that does not mean that we consist only of that part. God created that part in His image and likeness and placed it in a material body, uniting them into an individual person, so that the person can reflect His image not only invisibly (in the soul), but manifest it visibly also. (Unfortunately, we often miserably fail.) It is only through the body that we can communicate what is in our souls. That is the way God created us.

I just think it’s amazing that God “dreamed up” and created visibility - the material world. I rather think He values it.

Nita
 
teadough said:
Mystic Warrior

What is a Christian Mystic to you?

thanks, tim
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I am tiring of explaining this (no offense to you, I’ve just had terrible conversations about it and am frustrated), so I’m just going to remove that label from the forum, to be honest. It causes more discontentment than anything I’ve ever seen. I would rather dislabel myself on the forum to avoid the conflict. I am much more for maintaining peace than proving myself to people I don’t even know.

But, if you really want to know what I believe a mystic is, I think this site speaks for me:

christianmystics.com/?page_id=52

Peace…

MW
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
I want to show some passages also:

Second, we could cite verses all day long. I think we have to understand what we are reading.

Considering that the writers of those passages knew the Jewish scriptures well,and that they also knew that Christ and the Father are one,the passages can’t be taken as absolute statements.

My understanding (limited I realize) is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God and God the Son is a different “person” than the Father. While they are one in nature and purpose they are not the same.

Jesus said that he and the Father are one.
They are different persons in the sense of Father and Son,unbegotten and begotten. They are united by the Holy Spirit,which is the bond of love that they share between them. The Spirit is also a person,and is both “of the Father” and “of the Son”.

When Christ says that people who have seen Him have seen the Father, I believe He is talking about nature and purpose, not physical resemblance.

That’s obvious. God is spirit.

See also post 18.
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anthony022071 said:
We are created in God’s image because our rationality,our rational soul,is from God.

Our life is spirit. Life and spirit are essentially the same.
It is spirit which infuses life-forms. Spirit and life are “unknown quantities” which are extrinsic to Nature and matter. Matter,by itself,is non-living. Not everything is Nature is alive,and everything which is alive in Nature dies.
So life,and spirit,are not natural,but super-natural.
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I can’t disagree with this as it appears to me. Although, I view this spirit and life as the source of the manifestation of matter.

Peace…

MW
 
freesoulhope said:
Assuming that there was no immaterial soul, and that conciousness was nothing more then a chemical reaction in a complex nervous system; would it be right to think of are selves as distinct indivisuals? Or rather; are we instead the multiple personal conciousness of the universe? In other words, the universe itself is one being, which has become concious through a meduim of multiple biological organisms; a sort of universal conciousness. If the latter; is indivisuality a man made illusion, or could they be both true?

Peace.
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Please don’t take this as sarcastic. It isn’t intended to be, though it might seem so to you. I think it’s really worth considering.

If we really are the multiple personal consciousness of the universe and the universe itself is one conscious being, then why is it so resolutely inarticulate? One would have thought it would have somehow managed to speak of itself. But it hasn’t, in all this time. God, on the other hand, has spoken to man many times and in many ways, and has always acknowledged the separateness and spiritual autonomy of each of us as individuals.
Not once has He ever told us we are all, collectively, part of a universal consciousness.
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
I can’t disagree with this as it appears to me. Although, I view this spirit and life as the source of the manifestation of matter.

Peace…

MW
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The life that is in Nature,or matter,is from the Spirit (or the “breath of God”). The manifestation,or creation,of matter itself is from the Word. With the Word goes the breath of God. But since not all of Nature is alive,whereas everything in Nature which is alive inclines toward death,spirit is not intrinsic to matter. If spirit was the source of the manifestation of life,then the mortality of nature would have to be explained by original sin,which brought about death.
 
Mystic_Warrior said:
Regretfully, you are now also on my ignore list.

Go in peace…

MW
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Notice it’s okay for you to josh, but appears you can’t take it. Sorry you didn’t accept my apology for offending.

Am wondering if my post #30 had something to do with your decision. Perhaps had some points that caused a problem for one of your basic premises - specifically, man being made in the image of the Father only.

However, I’m content to accept your “Go in peace”. I’ll work on humility and kindness, and you can work on forgiveness. 🙂 🙂

God bless,
Nita.
 
Nita said:
Notice it’s okay for you to josh, but appears you can’t take it. Sorry you didn’t accept my apology for offending.

Am wondering if my post #30 had something to do with your decision. Perhaps had some points that caused a problem for one of your basic premises - specifically, man being made in the image of the Father only.

However, I’m content to accept your “Go in peace”. I’ll work on humility and kindness, and you can work on forgiveness. 🙂 🙂

God bless,
Nita.
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Nita - I’m rather certain that our exchanges led to one very good thing. MW has indeed changed his “religion” from Christian Mystic to Spiritually Religious in his public profile. The notion of “spiritually religious” is suitably vague rather than adamently “in your face” as his previous tag was. Anyone can view his blog and his links to learn that he considers himself to be an exorcist (of all things) and is not disinclined to include devil worshippers among his circle of friends. I’m saying this in public because his views are expressed in such a slippery/oil-y way that his actual views and practices should be clearly stated/exposed in public.

Peace to you, to all.
 
catharina said:
Nita - I’m rather certain that our exchanges led to one very good thing. MW has indeed changed his “religion” from Christian Mystic to Spiritually Religious in his public profile. The notion of “spiritually religious” is suitably vague rather than adamently “in your face” as his previous tag was. Anyone can view his blog and his links to learn that he considers himself to be an exorcist (of all things) and is not disinclined to include devil worshippers among his circle of friends. I’m saying this in public because his views are expressed in such a slippery/oil-y way that his actual views and practices should be clearly stated/exposed in public.

Peace to you, to all.
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I’m reporting you to the moderators for your lack of charity and slander. Even after putting you on ignore and attempting to leave you in peace you publicly criticize me on the forum.

MW
 
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