I am totally sick of this!!!!!

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tkdnick

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This is getting ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!! I am so tired of people on the LDS forum bashing other people!!! Makes me embarrassed to call myself a Christian and a Catholic. What good does it do to call someone stupid, hateful, a liar, or any other of the myriad of personal attacks I have seen slung by both sides??? Do you think that promotes discussion??? You think it betters the dialogue with other religions??? NO!!! It’s embarrassing!!! This is the only forum here that I have seen this problem in. If you want to discuss what the LDS church doesn’t or doesn’t teach, fine. BUT LEAVE THE PERSONAL ATTACKS OUT OF IT!!! If you aren’t willing to discuss what is taught, or tell the truth, THEN LEAVE!!!
 
Ditto to what you said. I keep saying I am never going to post again then I come back and check and someone says something or answers the last post I made, and I feel this compulsion to respond. I am obsessed with defending myself and my church against attack and yet, there are so many that post fairly like yourself, that I keep learning from and so I seem to not be able to extricate myself.

I have indeed enjoyed your posts always, and feel I know you. One day I will walk up and introduce myself in your 11:30 mass.
BJ
 
I have probably been personally attacked more than anyone on this LDS sub-forum. And it is only because I post the words of the LDS prophets, seers and revelators. The more LDS seers you quote, the more you will get flamed.

The problem here is that some people mistake a criticism of their religion’s teachings or tactics as a personal attack on them, and then they feel that they can launch a personal attack of their own.

I have been called a liar, a pervert, a black-hearted sinner, told that my heart is not right with God, that I know nothing of love, that God hates me, etc., etc. Yet I have not attacked anyone. If I have, then please point me toward the post# and I will apologize forthwith.
Paul
 
Discussion cannot exist without a contextual honesty.

In the case of this particular forum, the honesty needed is in reference to the doctrines and beliefs of the LDS church.

Unfortunately, the resident “faithful” are unwilling to discuss their doctrine with any meaningful level of forthrightness.

We cannot dicuss the civil issues of doctrine if we cannot get a basic base line or agreement of what is actually doctrine.

When the sources you call for are presented, they are denied based upon the “merits” of the poster, not the argument itself.

It is very frustrating for those of us who actually do have years of exeriential knowledge of the LDS church, and are trying to help those without this knowledge to answer their questions, when the “faithful” are denying the most basic doctrines of their faith.

I am certain that there are certain posts of mine that you would consider to be less than charitable, and more recently, seen as personal attacks. They are what they are; what I intended, or what you perceive, are irrelevant in the end.

When I left the church, I made a promise to myself, and to my wife, that I would not become the typical “antimormon”. Unfortunately, it is the behavior of the “faithful” lds here who have driven me ever closer to such a position. They are distorting and outright lying about what their church teaches, as is amply evidenced in other threads, and therefore I do not need to point specific fingers at this point.

This is demonstratable fact. If this is an “attack”, then it is only because of the failure of the local lds to recognize within themselves their duplicity and dishonesty about their religion. It is an attack only because it is their weakness, not because of anything else.

Furthermore, consider the first two Spiritual Acts of Mercy. I fully admit that I am less than charitable at times, and don’t usually exhibit what most poeple, especially Catholics, would consider to be “mercy”, however, I humbly stand by everything that I have done. I am not perfect, and so I do not do things as perfectly as some others, but I will not reject my deeds that are done to the best of my current ability.

As I pointed out on another thread in this forum, one cannot have a discussion (which is rational by nature) over personal feelings and beliefs. Until the lds can provide a rational position to work from, and stick to their rational position (as opposed to retreating into personal feelings and beliefs), there is no, and can not be, any “discussion”, only a series of “personal” attacks on the personal belies of the resident lds. As such, if any assertion of rationality regarding thier doctrine becomes a “personal” attack, it is because the lds have made it so.

Naturally, this does not discount what are, in fact, ad hominem attacks. It does, however, set the overall tone of these discussions.

Caritas numquam excidit
Inter arma caritas
 
I’m relatively new to these forums but from what I’ve seen so far, there’s been some passion and frustration now and then but nothing that I would describe as ridiculous or even as bashing. I’m especially grateful to the former LDS members for sharing their vast amounts of wealth on this topic.

As I said, there’s passion and some frustration on both sides but surely that’s to be expected. And when somebody feels he or she has gone a little too far, apologies are expressed and accepted. 👍
 
I think we should all try to remember the words of St. Paul:

*If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. *

An impossible standard that we all must strive for. I fail to live up to these beautiful words more than most of you. tkdnick, Thank you for reminding us of our responsibility as Christians.
 
While I tend to side with BJRumph on this issue, I must admit that the timing on this would seem to paint me as one of the offenders.

I have to confess my guilt on this. I did retaliate with some vitriol. I still believe what I said to be accurate and honest. I am still frustrated with the lack of honesty in others. But I will attempt to humble myself and tone it down.

I apologize to tkdnick for embarrasment and to BJColbert for having to see me at my worst.
 
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PaulDupre:
I have probably been personally attacked more than anyone on this LDS sub-forum. And it is only because I post the words of the LDS prophets, seers and revelators. The more LDS seers you quote, the more you will get flamed.

The problem here is that some people mistake a criticism of their religion’s teachings or tactics as a personal attack on them, and then they feel that they can launch a personal attack of their own.

I have been called a liar, a pervert, a black-hearted sinner, told that my heart is not right with God, that I know nothing of love, that God hates me, etc., etc. Yet I have not attacked anyone. If I have, then please point me toward the post# and I will apologize forthwith.
Paul
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This to me is really brave and the heart of the issue.
Im coming out and saying this and I think I speak for others on here too. Paul is a great help to us on here, he presents clear truth about the LDS teachings with sources listed. He gets dumped on more than anyone, and is accused more than anyone of hate.

The truth is that these kind of topics are flammable and touchy, you cant really have a civil discussion the way people dream when we read words like in St Paul’s Letters.
Division in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has caused a lot of harm and repairing that is not a simple civil discussion. I have seen clear passages by people like Paul and it turns out the people who supposedly believe it most of the time deny it either openly or subconsciously.
 
I know I am guilty of this bashing, and I want to apologize to everyone here. I have a shot fuse when it comes to religion and I need to fix it to become a good apologist. I am sorry and will try not to bash anyone here or anywhere.
 
I don’t “bash” anyone here. And no one here ever “bashed” me on this board, BUT I have been treated like garbage as some of my family members have by my “LDS/Bishop” brother refering to our Continuing in our Catholic Faith. He already converted one family group and works on others. When my sister and I said that LDS is not for us and leave us alone, we were told we are living a lie (as Catholics). :eek: And to stop making trouble. (I did not make trouble- all I said was I’m not interested)Because we,(my sisiters and I) should live such a holy wonderful life as he does, his family quotes the Bible during dinner and has a theme night, are the “best behaved children they have ever seen” ect ect. All my children pray, attend Church, say Grace before meals. And although, now grown, my children were very well mannered and behaved quite well. But I did not make it a “public display” showing off to my parents when they came to visit (example–night prayers said at their bedsides–maybe I should have built an Altar in the livingroom and displayed my children like puppets)—I don’t care what he does but I get upset when his “wonderful ways” are “bashed” down my throat.
 
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PaulDupre:
I have probably been personally attacked more than anyone on this LDS sub-forum. And it is only because I post the words of the LDS prophets, seers and revelators. The more LDS seers you quote, the more you will get flamed.

The problem here is that some people mistake a criticism of their religion’s teachings or tactics as a personal attack on them, and then they feel that they can launch a personal attack of their own.

I have been called a liar, a pervert, a black-hearted sinner, told that my heart is not right with God, that I know nothing of love, that God hates me, etc., etc. Yet I have not attacked anyone. If I have, then please point me toward the post# and I will apologize forthwith.
Paul
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I refer you to post #2 in the thread called “Why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?”

Please provide evidence that “Mormons consistently spread vicious falsehoods about the Catholic faith and Christianity in general.”

Please provide evidence that “LDS are deceptive - they misrepresent {obviously intentionally} the Church’s history and doctrines to investigators and other non-members.”

Please provide evidence that "the ‘Elders’ are instructed that Catholics are easy targets."The implication evidently is that LDS do these things intentionally, or as a matter of Church policy. Some Church members of course may be misguided or misinformed, and occasionally say things about the Catholic Church or other faiths that the Church as a whole would not approve of. That can happen in every church, including the Catholic Church.

These accusations are false. There is no truth in them. Either back up your claims with evidence, or withdraw your accusations and apologize to LDS.

amgid
 
That post was not an attack on any person, just a criticism of Mormonism and its tactics.

Apparently you have never learned to distinguish between the two. I am sorry you insist on taking things so personally. Perhaps this forum is not appropriate for you.

Paul
 
I really don’t think debating LDS beliefs is going to get anybody anywhere. I have already stated the reasons why I am Catholic and not LDS, and I know that people are clearly aware that NOTHING can be done to change my mind (even “convert or die”).

It is useless to try to discuss differences in belief with them. The LDS religion is like Jello-- and they mold it according to the population they are working with. It melts away when subjected to any heat.

Confronting them on more substantiative issues, such as history and anthropology, sets up such anxiety that they just cannot process information. People fear losing jobs, friends, family, and reputation, if they face the truth about LDS.

Non-LDS people in LDS-dominated communities fear taking a critical look at LDS for the same reasons.

I really believe that given the accusations and counter accusations of “liar”, there is no progress being made. And I know who to believe. LDS is just afraid of exposure, especially on such a widely read forum as this one.

Why can’t they just lay off and leave us alone, unless they are truly interested in Catholicism?

The claims of peaceful cooperation between LDS and Catholic has been largely because of Catholic ignorance of LDS agenda and beliefs. Negative aspects of LDS culture have, through this peaceful cooperation, crept into Catholic culture (or made those cultural commonalities worse within Catholicism). By this I mean homophobia, judgmental attitudes, racism, prosperity theology, distorted history, and others.

Reaction against LDS has sparked “there is no such thing as pre-Columbian American history”, heterophobia in the gay community, adolescent rebellion in the form of sexual acting out and substance abuse, etc.

You make your own conclusion, I have made mine.

Rant done. 👋
 
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PaulDupre:
That post was not an attack on any person, just a criticism of Mormonism and its tactics.
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Those accusations are false. They are an insult to all the LDS. Either back up you claims with evidence, or withdraw you accusations.
Apparently you have never learned to distinguish between the two. I am sorry you insist on taking things so personally.
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Personalities has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps this forum is not appropriate for you.
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You will be lucky.

amgid
 
Either back up you claims with evidence, or withdraw you accusations.
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While I am sure Paul can answer this far more eloquent than I, I still will make one minor point:

I submit to you all of this forum’s (the LDS subforum of the Non-Catholic Religions forum, in case you are feeling lost as to basic definitions) posts as evidence of this behavior. This is not nearly so volumous as to prevent your critical (in its true sense) review, especially with the large number of samples that provide this evidence.
 
I think post #73 in the “why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?” thread presented ample evidence in support of these claims.
 
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PaulDupre:
The problem here is that some people mistake a criticism of their religion’s teachings or tactics as a personal attack on them, and then they feel that they can launch a personal attack of their own.
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Paul definitely hit the nail on the head with the above remark regarding how someone who has their religious faith criticized is mistakenly taking what is known to be true as personal attack. I am new here on the board today, but I just wanted to say that it’s so often forgotten that to be LDS is to be Mormon. To challenge what they know to be true is perceived as an attack on the culture and formulation of all that they are. There is a communication gap going on–that’s a definite. I wish there were more opportunities to challenge ones faith and explore why they believe as they do rather than **what ** they believe.
 
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kaymart:
I don’t “bash” anyone here. And no one here ever “bashed” me on this board, BUT I have been treated like garbage as some of my family members have by my “LDS/Bishop” brother refering to our Continuing in our Catholic Faith. He already converted one family group and works on others. When my sister and I said that LDS is not for us and leave us alone, we were told we are living a lie (as Catholics). :eek:
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I can relate to your problem. I also have an LDS brother who is a bishop. He has told me that I must have committed some heinous sin that drove the Holy Ghost away and allowed Satan to deceive me. Otherwise, he reasons, I could never have left the LDS Church. That’s what Mormons are taught - that the only reason people leave the LDS Church is because of grave sin.

It is inconceivable to him that someone could learn enough about the LDS Church to realize that it’s a scam and leave for something better.

God bless you,
Paul
 
It is my intention to question doctrine, but never to question the sincerity of a person’s beliefs. I have, however, taken some to task for what I perceived to be uncharitable posts. And on occasion I have even responded to snide remarks in kind. So, I apologize if I have added to an oppressive forum environment. I will try to rise above it and keep my remarks civil, recognizing the emotional nature of the discussion.

Peace
 
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