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fatuma
Guest
The link wouldn’t open, here it is again:
whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3465&KW=jannah
wa salam
whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3465&KW=jannah
wa salam
A
Ahimsa
Guest
The Eurasian:
Blinded this world —
how few here see clearly!
Just as birds who’ve escaped
from a net are
few, few
are the people
who make it to heaven.
— Dhp 174
So, independent of the Jewish conceptions of heaven, you might want to look at the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions of heaven.
Just for your information, if you discuss this issue of heaven with Hindus and Buddhists, they will say that they believed in people going to heaven centuries before Jesus appeared. The Buddha said:
Blinded this world —
how few here see clearly!
Just as birds who’ve escaped
from a net are
few, few
are the people
who make it to heaven.
— Dhp 174
So, independent of the Jewish conceptions of heaven, you might want to look at the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions of heaven.
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exoflare
Guest
How is that relevant to anything here?
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Ahimsa
Guest
Someone argued that, before Jesus, practically no one (save for one or two) went to heaven. This argument is meant to show that Jesus is the Son of God, the one who opened the gates to Heaven, thus disproving Muslim ideas of Jesus as a mere prophet.
But since Muslims believe that God sent a prophet to each nation, and since many Muslims believe that Krishna and Buddha were prophets, Catholic apologists can’t simply look at the Jewish texts to prove that the gates to Heaven were closed before Jesus’ birth – apologists would also have to look at what the Hindu and Buddhist prophets have said about Heaven. And the Hindus and Buddhists don’t seem to have this concept of no one reaching Heaven before Jesus’ birth.
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iamrefreshed
Guest
What if the apologist’s do not believe Krishna and Buddha were prophets?
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Ahimsa
Guest
I would be pleasantly surprised if Catholic apologists believed in Krishna and Buddha as prophets.
But I’m not holding my breath.
I was referring, though, to the fact that many Muslims believe that Krishna and Buddha were prophets. So, if a Catholic apologist were to argue to such a Muslim that the gates to Heaven were closed before Jesus, the Muslim might point to the writings of Krishna and Buddha that say otherwise. And so the apologist would have to address the point that the Muslim raises.
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FuzzyBunny116
Guest
We don’t accept them as divinly inspired though and I don’t know why one would. If Jim-Billy-Joe-Bob of 2000 BC wrote that he saw someone go into Heaven, I wouldn’t believe him unless I thought he was inspired. The accounts of Buddha and Krishna hold no more weight to a Catholic than Jim-Billy-Joe-Bob. We wouldn’t trust them as a reliable source, and thus wouldn’t have any reason to believe what they said. Is there any reason to think Buddha and this Krishna fellow are prophets/inspired? We did a bit on Buddhism in history, and he was simply a philosopher whos philosophy was to be taken religiously (IE center of your life). You’d have to at least say why the Muslims believe them prophets.
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exoflare
Guest
Geez, just what does it take to be a prophet in Islam? Seriously, though. The only criteria seems to be that they write a book or teach some stuff (or more commonly it seems, if hundreds of years later, somebody just suddenly claims you wrote a book or taught some stuff). Gotta hand it to Mohammed, though. He was the first one smart enough to pen the “revelation” that he was the last and greatest prophet, guaranteeing that no one else get any fun later on. Of course, if I were to become an aspiring prophet, maybe I could just cancel all that out a la abrogation theory?
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exoflare
Guest
LOL I didn’t even finish writing my post until I saw that one… seriously. But I guess we were just saying what everyone was thinking anyhow.
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Well, if you don’t want to consider Krishna and Buddha as inspired prophets, that’s fine with me.
Besides, that’s not the topic of this thread.My point is simple: if you wish to dialogue with Muslims, you have to understand how Muslims see the world.
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exoflare
Guest
I try to, but I still can’t get a straight answer as to what things all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe in common. This alone has been such a chore. Depending on which Muslim I talk to, one teaching may be essential for salvation or it may not be, some Hadiths might have authority or be just a legend. All accept the Quran as God’s word, but there’s no definite way to interpret it, even with the scholars whose interpretations aren’t really 100% binding.Well, if you don’t want to consider Krishna and Buddha as inspired prophets, that’s fine with me.
My point is simple: if you wish to dialogue with Muslims, you have to understand how Muslims see the world.
There is just absolutely no ground to start from!
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fatuma
Guest
It’s funny how you can’t get a straight answer when there are about 3 different threads dedicated to explaining islam to you guys. 
wa salam
wa salam
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exoflare
Guest
I agree. If they all said the same thing, it wouldn’t be such a problem.It’s funny how you can’t get a straight answer when there are about 3 different threads dedicated to explaining islam to you guys.
wa salam
M
memnoch_lover
Guest
question: who was in charge in the universe when the Son of God emptied Himself?
the answer is simple…
Jn 1:1 says… In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God . … The Word was made flesh…
See it was the Word who was God that became flesh… while God with whom the Word was with in the beginning did not became flesh…
Therefore…God who existed with the Word in the beginning was in charge…
However, since we should consider and exhaust all verses not just choose some i consider the following…
Gods nature does not change.
Therefore the Divine nature of the Son of God when he became man was not mixed with human or disappears. The divine nature remains as is and is hidden in his human nature which he assumed…hence jesus has both human nature and divine nature and possess both attributes
example of jesus attributes as human… 1. he gets hungry 2. he cries 3. he gets hurt… in this sense he is truly man
example of jesus attributes as God…1… he forgives sin… when only God can forgive. 2. he raised himself from the dead… when he said " destroy this temple and i will raise it up on the third day… the people did not understand jesus that he was speaking of his body" (gospel of john) also… jesus said “: i lay lay my life on my own accord but if i will i will raise it up”(somewhere in the john gospel)
In this characteristic jesus is all in all true mediator being truly God and truly man…
As man jesus shares our nature as God jesus shares the nature of the Father. Since he has both nature… it is but legitimate that he claims to be One with the Father as to his divine nature…he said " the Father and me are One…or I am in the father and the Father is in me…"
therefore Going back toyour question… who rules the universe when jesus empted himself?
answer: The Father who was with the Word since from the beginning(jn 1:1)rules the universe. also the Word who became flesh named jesus rules the world despite being man because as to his divinne nature He is with the father and the father is in Him.
Jesus as to his divine nature is one withthe Father.
end,
another issue…
now as to how jesus as able to attain atonement for the sin of man.
simple: man has free will therefore he must be responsible of his action…Wwhen man sinned against God… man must take responsibility of his own sin because he committed it with his free will…This is in accord to justice that is to give one his due…since man is the cause of the mess of sin now it is man who should clean it, that is his responsibilty.
But how can man take resposibilty of his own sin to the saticfaction of the offended party (GOD)when what man does is always short of the justice of God. It is always short becaus man is finite while Gods justice is infinite. Remember God is not only merciful but is Justice also… As such justice God demands what is due to him.
When Gods justice demands that man take responsibilty of his action , man finds himself short of the justice of God since he is finite.
However… in jesus who has both nature of god and man… the justice of god was satisfied .
How? jesus as man… represents man… as man he took the responsibilty of the sin of man… as God… whatever jesus does has an infinite value…so very act of jesus is sufficient to redeem man because it is infinite. But Jesus did not stop there… in fulfillment of the prophecy of isaiah(53:10) jesus offered his life to God as atonement for mankind.
Now how can the justice of God refuse the reparation or atonement of jesus when it has infinite value being God as well as man?the sacrifice of jesus was sufficient to the saticfaction of gods justice… in short the demand of the justice of God was met.
That is jesus is said to have ransom us… or has paid our salvation
Howver the effect of the redemption of jesus is not automatic.
God has done his part and man has to respond… In baptism the merit of jesus sacrifice is realized.Paul wrote… that as we are emerse in water we died with him and as we are are raised from the water… we live as new life… also jesus said… you must be born of water and spirit…etc pointing to baptism as sharing in his death and ressurection…
end
the answer is simple…
Jn 1:1 says… In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God . … The Word was made flesh…
See it was the Word who was God that became flesh… while God with whom the Word was with in the beginning did not became flesh…
Therefore…God who existed with the Word in the beginning was in charge…
However, since we should consider and exhaust all verses not just choose some i consider the following…
Gods nature does not change.
Therefore the Divine nature of the Son of God when he became man was not mixed with human or disappears. The divine nature remains as is and is hidden in his human nature which he assumed…hence jesus has both human nature and divine nature and possess both attributes
example of jesus attributes as human… 1. he gets hungry 2. he cries 3. he gets hurt… in this sense he is truly man
example of jesus attributes as God…1… he forgives sin… when only God can forgive. 2. he raised himself from the dead… when he said " destroy this temple and i will raise it up on the third day… the people did not understand jesus that he was speaking of his body" (gospel of john) also… jesus said “: i lay lay my life on my own accord but if i will i will raise it up”(somewhere in the john gospel)
In this characteristic jesus is all in all true mediator being truly God and truly man…
As man jesus shares our nature as God jesus shares the nature of the Father. Since he has both nature… it is but legitimate that he claims to be One with the Father as to his divine nature…he said " the Father and me are One…or I am in the father and the Father is in me…"
therefore Going back toyour question… who rules the universe when jesus empted himself?
answer: The Father who was with the Word since from the beginning(jn 1:1)rules the universe. also the Word who became flesh named jesus rules the world despite being man because as to his divinne nature He is with the father and the father is in Him.
Jesus as to his divine nature is one withthe Father.
end,
another issue…
now as to how jesus as able to attain atonement for the sin of man.
simple: man has free will therefore he must be responsible of his action…Wwhen man sinned against God… man must take responsibility of his own sin because he committed it with his free will…This is in accord to justice that is to give one his due…since man is the cause of the mess of sin now it is man who should clean it, that is his responsibilty.
But how can man take resposibilty of his own sin to the saticfaction of the offended party (GOD)when what man does is always short of the justice of God. It is always short becaus man is finite while Gods justice is infinite. Remember God is not only merciful but is Justice also… As such justice God demands what is due to him.
When Gods justice demands that man take responsibilty of his action , man finds himself short of the justice of God since he is finite.
However… in jesus who has both nature of god and man… the justice of god was satisfied .
How? jesus as man… represents man… as man he took the responsibilty of the sin of man… as God… whatever jesus does has an infinite value…so very act of jesus is sufficient to redeem man because it is infinite. But Jesus did not stop there… in fulfillment of the prophecy of isaiah(53:10) jesus offered his life to God as atonement for mankind.
Now how can the justice of God refuse the reparation or atonement of jesus when it has infinite value being God as well as man?the sacrifice of jesus was sufficient to the saticfaction of gods justice… in short the demand of the justice of God was met.
That is jesus is said to have ransom us… or has paid our salvation
Howver the effect of the redemption of jesus is not automatic.
God has done his part and man has to respond… In baptism the merit of jesus sacrifice is realized.Paul wrote… that as we are emerse in water we died with him and as we are are raised from the water… we live as new life… also jesus said… you must be born of water and spirit…etc pointing to baptism as sharing in his death and ressurection…
end
F
Faith101
Guest
While i’ve seen some people say that krishna and budha were prophets, there is no hardcore evidence from an Islamic perspective to support these claims (there names are not mentioned). So, God knows best.Geez, just what does it take to be a prophet in Islam? Seriously, though. The only criteria seems to be that they write a book or teach some stuff (or more commonly it seems, if hundreds of years later, somebody just suddenly claims you wrote a book or taught some stuff). Gotta hand it to Mohammed, though. He was the first one smart enough to pen the “revelation” that he was the last and greatest prophet, guaranteeing that no one else get any fun later on. Of course, if I were to become an aspiring prophet, maybe I could just cancel all that out a la abrogation theory?
Exoflare, what do you think Mohamed (pbuh) gained from this? If he was really smart, dont you think he would have made himself god’s son?
Comments like these make me believe that you have never read the Quran and you have never read an objective biography on the life of Mohamed (pbuh).
R
RyanL
Guest
memnoch,
Well done, good and faithful servant.
May God bless you and your family richly,
RyanL
Well done, good and faithful servant.
May God bless you and your family richly,
RyanL
E
exoflare
Guest
I haven’t read any large-scale volume about the life of Mohammed. What you would consider “objective” I don’t know, but I’ve tried to read it mostly from non-religious sources at least so as to avoid bias.
And yeah, I know I get sarcastic sometimes and I need to stop. That’s just something I struggle with. Sorry if that got to you. But seriously, I just don’t see what evidence there is that the Quran is really from God. All we know is that Mohammed dictated the book to some people and claimed that it is from God. What evidence is there that he was telling the truth, even if he was considered a “good” person?
I don’t expect you to answer here or anything because that would sort of de-rail the topic… I just wanted to let you know what I think. The comments about some Muslims believing Buddha and Krishna were prophets just sort of broke the last straw.
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exoflare
Guest
Oops, another thing…
No I’ve never read the whole Quran. I’m still working on the Bible myself! Although I do have the Quran electronically available for reference and have checked it numerous times when people make claims to me.
No I’ve never read the whole Quran. I’m still working on the Bible myself! Although I do have the Quran electronically available for reference and have checked it numerous times when people make claims to me.
M
Mrabody
Guest
fatuma said:
Sin has been present in this world since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. By sacrificing himself, God redeemed us as it was practically impossible for us to redeem ourselves even by following the covenant he made with Abraham and the Laws that he gave to Moses.
Many Prostants believe that you can be saved by Faith Alone. In essence they think that if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, that you will be saved, even if you continue to Sin. In fact this was perhaps the most important heresy that resulted in the division of Christendom
Catholics believe that you must have faith in God to be saved, but that you must also manifest your faith through good works. It isn’t enough to say “I believe.” You must live your belief. In short you must try to live as Jesus did and according to his teachings. If you commit a mortal sin (a very serious sin) then you cut yourself off from Jesus and the Church and place your soul in jeopardy should you continue and die in that state. You must repent and seek God’s forgiveness through confession and absolution in order to be able to benefit from God’s sacrifice.
Now to be fair to most serious Protestants most of them actually live good lives and do good works even though they profess not to believe in the need for this.
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