I ask you a mystery question

[frangiuliano115]

Not everyone is Christian. Many people are atheists, others believe in God, but choose to reject him. Some who do know him make the choice to turn their back on him so they can persuade greed, lust, etc. If they didn’t, the world wouldn’t be so filled with evil. They turn their back on even getting to know him.

No, I do not try to live a good life to avoid hell. I try to live a good life because I love God. However, I do know people who avoid sin only to avoid hell.

What does the bolded sentence mean? Do you think great sinners and great saints are the same and will receive the same reward? That would mean God is not just, and God is just.

Lily Bernans,

It means you need to reread my posts and your answers.

It means you’re in an argumentative mood -

And over here it’s lunchtime.

Fran

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hmmmm. I think you didn’t understand what I meant…

If you mean you’d take away evil and make everyone good, that would take away their free will. God wants us to love him freely, he wants us to make the choice to love him, not because it is programmed into our genes.

Lucifer’s Fall and mankind’s Fall didn’t happen by chance. God willed it from all eternity or else it would not have taken place.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Lily Bernans,

It means you need to reread my posts and your answers.

It means you’re in an argumentative mood -

And over here it’s lunchtime.

Fran

No, I’m not in an argumentative mood. I’m never in an argumentative mood. I’m not argumentative or moody. It does mean I’m in a hurry, and you don’t want to answer me, which is fine. This is just opinion anyway. Hell and evil do exist. There are those among us who definitely are not good. They should not be rewarded for their evil acts.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Hell- eternal separation from God, is a choice we make due to some people’s rejection of God. I think part of what makes the eternal aspect hard for us is that here, in life, we are ever changing and if something made us miserable and we could see that something else would make us happy, we would likely change. But from everything I’ve read, once we die, we enter a kind of timeless existence where don’t make new choices. Thus, if in this life we have chosen separation from God, it is eternal.

I agree. Those who know about hell and God and who still choose to reject him should not have their free will taken away. If they want to choose hell, I would let them have hell.

Those who have never heard of God, of Christ, should be judged on how they lived their life, I think. There are few people who missionaries have not reached, but I suppose there are a few.

 

[Vico]

If you got to call the shots, would you make hell last forever? if no, who is more merciful, you or God? If yes, why would you wish pain forever on one of God’s children?

Yes. The pain of separation is necessary possibility to have the joy of the vision of God.
*Psalm 139 *
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes. The pain of separation is necessary possibility to have the joy of the vision of God.
*Psalm 139 *
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

I agree. It is not that we wish pain on one of God’s children, they wish it on themselves by separating themselves from God. I would not take away their free will to make them love me. I don’t think any human wants to be loved because the other person has no choice in the matter. I don’t presume.to know what God “thinks,” but it would seem he wants people with a choice to love him freely, not because they have no other choice.

 

[fhansen]

If you got to call the shots, would you make hell last forever? if no, who is more merciful, you or God? If yes, why would you wish pain forever on one of God’s children?

I wouldn’t annihilate people who wanted to continue to exist. But I wouldn’t force them to be happy either.

 

[frangiuliano115]

So you’d reward a mass murderer just as you would St. JP II? Makes no sense to me.

Satan does exist. Evil does exist. So you would reward those who choose Satan the same as those who rejected him and chose God?

I am glad you are not in charge!

Gosh Lily

Read my post no. 11 again
And then read what you posted above.

Quite a jump - wouldn’t you say??
Did something get lost in translation?

I’ll be happy to converse with you and answer anything you’d like to clear up - it’s not that I don’t want to speak with you.

It’s just that the misunderstanding is so great, that I wouldn’t even know where to start!

 

[Aloysium]

If you got to call the shots, would you make hell last forever? if no, who is more merciful, you or God? If yes, why would you wish pain forever on one of God’s children?

I cannot ever call the shots. I am not all powerful, all knowing, all loving.
In my cowardice, pride and overall sinfulness, I would do nothing at all - you and I are not worth creating.
Knowing that we can be better than we are, I will pray for us, that we become more loving, more faithful, more trusting, wiser.

Way I see it, hell is not so much about forever as it is about being without change .
Human time with its past, present and future has to do with becoming.
But, in the end we are who we are. Once dead, there’s no hope for anything better because this one life was lived as we willed it.
The emptiness and meaninglessness of selfish pursuits is eternally cast in stone - who we are and what we have done with what we were given.

Within the entire universe,
immense and wondrous with its heights and depths, spectacular,
to use a words, ineffective in conveying the true power and glory,
hell is a bit of darkness in infinte brilliance.

Free choice allows us the capacity to participate in and witness all that wonder.

God is far more merciful than I.
I don’t think I would allow myself to be tortured for your sake, sorry.
He did so that we might, in spite of our sinfulness join in eternal life.

As to wishing eternal pain on others, a few of points are warranted:
It maybe my arrogance, but I see myself more likely to end up in hell.
To seek the Divine is an ongoing struggle.
However, victory has been made possible through Christ.
I don’t know you, but I am aware that you are out there, another “me”, another son or daughter of Adam.
I do not wish pain on my brothers and sisters, but I respect your will to be whom you choose to be.

My wish for you is to share in the love and joy of everlasting life.
You clearly exist and thus must decide your fate. It is your choice who you will be.

 

[AKDee]

So you’d reward a mass murderer just as you would St. JP II? Makes no sense to me.

Careful there, because that’s exactly how it works with our Lord when we repent. The worst sinner can be forgiven along with the best saint because our Lord is Mercy itself but it requires an act of repentance on our part. Jesus told St. Faustina that “as often as you beg for it, you glorify My mercy”.

 

[ynotzap]

If you got to call the shots, would you make hell last forever? if no, who is more merciful, you or God? If yes, why would you wish pain forever on one of God’s children?

Even if I could call the shots, I couldn’t make anything last forever, God created me, and sustains me, I am completely dependent on Him. I am not the creator of mercy, God is the source. I wouldn’t wish pain on anyone, and neither does God. Pain is the sign of some disorder, physical or spiritual. To be in the state of eternal damnation, or hell, one has deliberately turned their back on God, signifying they do not desire, or love Him, God granting us free will, grants us our desires. I f we do not desire, or love Him for whom we were created, is to frustrate our entire existence which is to be united to God,the purpose of our existence, to experience our total happiness eternally. So one has full knowledge, and gives full consent,of will to be in the state of eternal suffering. What God creates will exist eternally, and when one wills to be separated from God, he condemns himself to that state of suffering , eternally

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Careful there, because that’s exactly how it works with our Lord when we repent. The worst sinner can be forgiven along with the best saint because our Lord is Mercy itself but it requires an act of repentance on our part. Jesus told St. Faustina that “as often as you beg for it, you glorify My mercy”.

I follow Church teaching which says that we can know if someone is in heaven, but we cannot know that anyone is in hell.

However, it makes no sense that a mass murderer and St. JP II would receive the same reward.

Of course a mass murderer can repent and come to God and avoid hell, however, according to Church teaching, he or she is going to have to put in a lot of time in purgatory, something St. JP II almost surely did not have to do.

I think I probably worded something wrong because I never said a sinner could not repent and go to heaven. Of course he or she can. I said, I would still send those who knowingly turned away from God, unrepentant, to hell. The Church teaches God does. I would still keep hell open for those who knowingly turn their back on Christ, and I would not take away the free will of anyone by making him unable to do anything but good.

 

[ericc]

If you got to call the shots, would you make hell last forever? if no, who is more merciful, you or God? If yes, why would you wish pain forever on one of God’s children?

I’d do it the way God did it. Prepare Heaven and Hell. Let them choose freely with the knowledge that the choice is permanent. Gotta respect your decision. But no, you don’t get a taste of it before hand. That may sway your free will. Someone else may deem it a bribe or coercion. And that won’t be fair at all to all participants. Because some didn’t manage to get a taste of it before they were untimely called.

 

[davidv]

I follow Church teaching which says that we can know if someone is in heaven, but we cannot know that anyone is in hell.

However, it makes no sense that a mass murderer and St. JP II would receive the same reward.

The laborers in the vineyard story in Matthew 20 would indicate that they will. Provided there is repentance, both will be in heaven.

Of course a mass murderer can repent and come to God and avoid hell, however, according to Church teaching, he or she is going to have to put in a lot of time in purgatory, something St. JP II almost surely did not have to do.

I think I probably worded something wrong because I never said a sinner could not repent and go to heaven. Of course he or she can. I said, I would still send those who knowingly turned away from God, unrepentant, to hell. The Church teaches God does. I would still keep hell open for those who knowingly turn their back on Christ, and I would not take away the free will of anyone by making him unable to do anything but good.

 

[ericc]

The laborers in the vineyard story in Matthew 20 would indicate that they will. Provided there is repentance, both will be in heaven.

Those in heaven are by definition saved. But the reward is just not in salvation only. Mat 16:27 says he will be paid for what he has done. Since not everyone deeds are the same, therefore, besides heaven, there should be other goodies. Otherwise, that verse would appear superfluous. Moreover, divine justice may seem to be not in balance?

Reiterated in Rom 2:6., 1 Cor 3:8

Mat 20 says God did not short changed anyone. They get what was promised. It does not preclude God being generous to others.