I Attended My First Divine Liturgy!

[Nowhere_Man]

Today I attended my first Divine Liturgy! It was sooooo beautiful and it was definitely what I have been searching for in a Liturgy. It felt so much more,fulfilling than a Latin Rite Mass (OF or EF); that is, of course, not to say the awe of the Divine Mystery of the Eucharist was any more or less, but the aesthetics definitely helped to keep me focused on the Holy Event that was taking place.

 

[Victorious]

Divine Liturgy is indeed beautiful. I have been to several myself. There is definitely no room in it for the kind of idiocy we have seen in the Latin Rite.

Speaking personally, however, I would remain in the Latin Rite, with all its warts. There are devotions in the Latin Rite that I love and that I understand are not prevalent in the Byzantine Rite, such as Eucharistic adoration. Besides which, I have gotten hooked on the Latin Mass of 1962, and hope that in the near future, I will be able to attend it more than once a month.

 

[LoyalViews]

Congratulations! Did they have good incense? Just joking.

The Aesthetics are beautiful, and you’ll barey ever see any abuses!

 

[Monica4316]

Was it Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?

if it was EO, I recommend visiting an Eastern Catholic liturgy, cause it’s the same liturgy AND you get to receive the Blessed Sacrament as a Catholic

God bless

 

[WetCatechumen]

I’ve been to exactly three Divine Liturgies, two Orthodox, and one Ruthenian Catholic. All were amazing. I’ve also been to the Easter Liturgy before the Divine Liturgy - I had to leave early, although this Pascha I was able to stay till the end at a different parish.

Absolutely amazing. The ad orientem posture is so essential to the character of the Mass. I watched some videos online of Qorbono and liturgies of other traditions - so meaningful. They all reminded me of the one EF Mass I’ve been too.

I’m very Latin. I’m scholastic, dogmatic, legalistic (sadly), and I love kneeling. I want to keep the things distinctly Latin, but I do like a combination vernacular/Latin Mass. I personally would prefer a semi-vernacular EF. In fact, the Ruthenians mixed Greek and Slavonic into their Liturgy, and the Greek Orthodox mixed Greek in. I don’t see why we cannot keep our ancient Western Liturgy, but preserve the Latin use, and have the vernacular.

So I love the Divine Liturgy, and I’m glad you like it. If we see more of a restoration of the EF of the Latin Rite and possibly a vernacular form, then I think that you will be more satisfied with the Western Liturgies.

The Eastern Churches can really show us what we’ve lost in the West. They’ve held very steadfastly to their traditions and the apostles’ teachings.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Was it Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?

if it was EO, I recommend visiting an Eastern Catholic liturgy, cause it’s the same liturgy AND you get to receive the Blessed Sacrament as a Catholic

God bless

It was a Ruthenian Catholic Church, and I did receive the Eucharist. It was very humbling to be ‘fed’ the Eucharist in such a way.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Divine Liturgy is indeed beautiful. I have been to several myself. There is definitely no room in it for the kind of idiocy we have seen in the Latin Rite.

Speaking personally, however, I would remain in the Latin Rite, with all its warts. There are devotions in the Latin Rite that I love and that I understand are not prevalent in the Byzantine Rite, such as Eucharistic adoration. Besides which, I have gotten hooked on the Latin Mass of 1962, and hope that in the near future, I will be able to attend it more than once a month.

While I agree with you about Adoration, I do understand their reason for not having it, and I kind of agree. However, its not like I could transfer Rites anyway because there isn’t a Eastern Catholic parish close enough for me to attend regularly. Maybe when I’m older though (I’m 16 now) I will move closer to one and be able to attend regularly and think about changing Rites.

 

[jbm0117]

You should check out an EO Liturgy to see Eastern Christianity of our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

 

[Mariamkutty]

The greatest advantage of being a Catholic is that every Catholic is allowed to attend any Divine Liturgy of all churches belonging to the Catholic communion of churches, the 23 sui iuris churches, without changing canonical enrollment. The best of several worlds really. In a country like the US which has immigrants from several traditions having their own churches, it means there is a huge choice of Divine Liturgies for every Catholic.

The Roman Catholic Church is Graeco-Roman, West European in culture and in much of its dogmatic theology. Because it was founded and spread as part of the Roman Empire first and all the West European countries were under the bishop of Rome until the Reformation starting in 1520, nearly fifteen centuries after Apostle Paul first went to Rome!, it is both universal in nature and Graeco-Roman European in culture.

Other Catholic churches on the other hand has a local history and culture that is not automatically universal because none of those churches had any political or even religious power outside their own regions.

In India, the church from the time of Portuguese in 1500 is very much a part of the West European tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, even if it first came as part of Portuguese Padroado. The tradition of Christianity in India since 1500 has been very much a part of colonialism, just like Christianity in Brazil. That 78% of Christians in India are Roman Catholic proves the influence of the Catholic church and its missionaries since the arrival of Portuguese in 1500. The Jesuits were the earliest Christian missionaries who worked outside the areas not directly under control of the Portuguese trade and colonial bases. The Indian subcontinent consisted of probably hundreds of independent kingdoms and principalities until the Moghuls conquered and united many areas in the north starting at the same time as Portuguese, who were based only in coastal areas, followed by Dutch takeover of Portuguese areas except Goa, and later the British united them all to create British Raj spanning the whole Indian subcontinent, which included several semi-independent princely states which paid taxes to the British in return for protection from its neighbours.

Only in present Kerala state, known as Malabar Coast, is there a Christian past before the arrival of Portuguese. The ancient Christians of Malabar Coast, being a part of the Babylonian/Mesopotamian Chaldean Church of the East, had a bishop from Babylon based in Kodungallur (Cranganore) of present Thrissur District, until the death of Mar Abraham in 1597. At Synod of Diamper in 1599, See of Cranganore was created which became Vicariate of Thrissur from 1886, and was named the Syro Malabar Catholic Church in 1923. Ancient Christians of Apostle Thomas are lucky to have retained its connection to its old Liturgical roots. The ancient Christians of Apostle Thomas need to be applauded for insisting on retaining their Syriac Divine Liturgy even while they had West European Latin Rite bishop from 1599 - 1886 (and a European Vicar Apostolate in the continuation of See of Cranganore as Vicariate of Thrissur from 1887 - 1896, and the newly created Vicariate of Kottayam in 1887 also had a European Latin Rite bishop from 1887 - 1896) , no matter if it was purged of “heresies” as per Roman Catholic beliefs at the time and allegiance was changed from Patriarch of Babylon to Pope in Rome.

The study of Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East from the nineteenth century on Malabar Coast after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 has nothing to do with ancient Malabar Coast traditions. Study of other religions and traditions was introduced in British India not just in Malabar Coast among Christians who did not belong to the ancient community, but also among other religious groups. It was started as an academic exercise, which later led to the creation of new churches in communion with Middle Eastern churches and Church of England. Among the non-Christians academic study of religions led to creation of new philosophically based Hindu Reform movements.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Nowhere Man

My post was somewhat off topic in certain parts, but I thought a historical background of two Eastern Churches in present state of Kerala, in India, would be interesting. Malabar Coast, known as Kerala State since 1956, has a Christian population of six million. Four million of them are Syro Malabar Catholics. Not all of them are ancient Christians of St Thomas (just as not all members of the Russian Orthodox church are Russians), but it can be safely assumed that all ancient Christians of St Thomas are in the church.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Nowhere Man

My post was somewhat off topic in certain parts, but I thought a historical background of two Eastern Churches in present state of Kerala, in India, would be interesting. Malabar Coast, known as Kerala State since 1956, has a Christian population of six million. Four million of them are Syro Malabar Catholics. Not all of them are ancient Christians of St Thomas (just as not all members of the Russian Orthodox church are Russians), but it can be safely assumed that all ancient Christians of St Thomas are in the church.

No problem
I love Church history and such so I enjoyed reading it

 

[Mariamkutty]

Nowhere Man

Malabar Coast, known as Kerala State since 1956, has a Christian population of six million. Four million of them are Syro Malabar Catholics. Not all of them are ancient Christians of St Thomas (just as not all members of the Russian Orthodox church are Russians), but it can be safely assumed that all ancient Christians of St Thomas are in the church.

Nowhere Man

I am relieved to know you enjoy reading history of churches.

Btw, I need to clarify the above post. Of the four million Syro Malabar Catholics, only three million are resident in Kerala. One million Syro Malabar Catholics live outside Kerala, within India or outside the country. So of the six million Christians in the state of Kerala, only three million are Syro Malabar Catholics.

Of the six million Christians in Kerala 1.7 million are Latin Rite Catholics. The Roman Catholics in Kerala are commonly known as Latin Rite Catholics because of the presence of the ancient Christians of Apostle Thomas who came to be known as Syrian Rite Catholics after they came in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church in 1599 at Synod of Diamper and were allocated a separate See under Archdiocese of Goa, known as See of Cranganore. Jesuit priests were put in charge (Archbishop of Goa, Aleixo de Menezes put Fr Francisco Roz SJ as the first bishop in charge in 1599) until the Jesuit Order was suppressed due to political reasons in the eighteenth century. Until the creation of a separate church in 1887, Catholics in Kerala belonged to two different Rites, with their own churches and priests, but was under the Pope in Rome and a European Roman Catholic bishop.

The Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin set up by Portuguese Padroado in 1505, first as a mission station under Diocese of Lisbon, is the oldest Roman Catholic diocese in India. Even Diocese of Goa was started as a mission station only in 1510. Vasco da Gama, the Portuguese explorer, came to Calicut (Kozhikode) first in 1498 where they could not set up colonial trade base, and then a second Portuguese expedition came to Cochin a couple years later in 1500 and set up the main base for Malabar Coast for the next 163 years when they were ousted by the Dutch ! Cochin was the central base for Portuguese and Dutch.

The history of Syro Malankara Catholic Church formed in 1932 is extremely complicated. They were part of the non-Catholic group; three priests from the non-Catholic group left in 1930 to join the Roman Catholic Church and many non-Catholics joined them. They share their history with non-Catholics on Malabar Coast, joint training with British CMS missionaries 1816- 1836, Basel Lutheran Mission which operated as part of CMS in British Raj north Kerala Malabar District since 1839. It was also the efforts of Carmelite missionaries who had came to Cochin in 1657 just before the Portuguese were ousted which contributed greatly to the formation of Syro Malankara Catholic Church, 175 years later (in 1932).

When Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited Malabar Coast in 1806, there was only one non-Catholic group. The Dutch had been in control of several small kingdoms and principalities on Malabar Coast from 1663 until they were outsted in stages from 1741 and the ousting was complete by 1795 when the British took control. The non-Catholic group could only have been whatever religious affiliation the Dutch on Malabar Coast followed. Catholics on Malabar Coast belonged to two rites, Latin Rite in Diocese of Cochin and Syrian Rite in See of Cranganore under Archdiocese of Goa.

 

[Aramis]

Divine Liturgy is indeed beautiful. I have been to several myself. There is definitely no room in it for the kind of idiocy we have seen in the Latin Rite.

Go look up photos of what the SSJK do to the DL of St John (which is the extreme latinizationist end of UGCC & Old World Ruthenian praxis. Or what the worst of the Elko-ist clergy did in the New World… Removal of iconostasi, latin fiddleback vestments (sometimes including the maniple!), deletion of chant, placement of the lamb in the monstrance, statuary in front of icons (or in place of), elimination of the canonical hours for the faithful (replaced with the Dominican Rosary), suppression of the Akathists and Panachidas (again, replaced by the Dominican Rosary)…

And that’s not counting the licit alterations… elimination of some of the ektenia, redaction of verses in the surviving ones, the option to take them once or more than once in some uses. And the various ways the overlapping feasts combine movable with immovable for which propers are used, and whether to add the festal propers for the lesser coextant feasts. And then the options for vernacular and traditional language in diasporan eparchies (All traditional language, all modern form of traditional language, all local vernacular, all traditional with some items 2nd of 3+ repeats in the vernacular, all vernacular but with second repeats in traditional). Incensation Hymn or not. Post-Dismissal hymn or not. Hymn during Communion - Psalmody, Proper Communion Hymn(s), both, or a song, or a the proper hymn and a song, or a psalmody and a song, or all three (normally proper, psalmody, then song). Full prostrations or bow at the words of institution and at the epiclesis. Matins - None, as a separate service with a clear break, or as the introit to the DL; if used, 1 homily or two?

 

[GunslingerSaint]

Go look up photos of what the SSJK do to the DL of St John (which is the extreme latinizationist end of UGCC & Old World Ruthenian praxis. Or what the worst of the Elko-ist clergy did in the New World… Removal of iconostasi, latin fiddleback vestments (sometimes including the maniple!), deletion of chant, placement of the lamb in the monstrance, statuary in front of icons (or in place of), elimination of the canonical hours for the faithful (replaced with the Dominican Rosary), suppression of the Akathists and Panachidas (again, replaced by the Dominican Rosary)…

And that’s not counting the licit alterations… elimination of some of the ektenia, redaction of verses in the surviving ones, the option to take them once or more than once in some uses. And the various ways the overlapping feasts combine movable with immovable for which propers are used, and whether to add the festal propers for the lesser coextant feasts. And then the options for vernacular and traditional language in diasporan eparchies (All traditional language, all modern form of traditional language, all local vernacular, all traditional with some items 2nd of 3+ repeats in the vernacular, all vernacular but with second repeats in traditional). Incensation Hymn or not. Post-Dismissal hymn or not. Hymn during Communion - Psalmody, Proper Communion Hymn(s), both, or a song, or a the proper hymn and a song, or a psalmody and a song, or all three (normally proper, psalmody, then song). Full prostrations or bow at the words of institution and at the epiclesis. Matins - None, as a separate service with a clear break, or as the introit to the DL; if used, 1 homily or two?

Are you serious? This is horrible! I thought the SSJK were Byzantine traditionalists and not latinizers! This is outrageous! His beautitude Lubomyr was right to trample them down!

 

[Aramis]

Are you serious? This is horrible! I thought the SSJK were Byzantine traditionalists and not latinizers! This is outrageous! His beautitude Lubomyr was right to trample them down!

The SSJK are anything but true Traditionalists. Unless, of course, “Tradition is what was done the day I was chrismated”…

Their affiliation with the SSPX does neither any favors. It’s bad press for both, since it means highly latinized SSJK ordinations via the TLM (the SSJK has no hierarchs), and the SSPX are actively assisting an excommunicated group by ordaining their priests and deacons as well as actively supporting Latinizations in the Catholic East.

 

[Formosus]

The greatest advantage of being a Catholic is that every Catholic is allowed to attend any Divine Liturgy of all churches belonging to the Catholic communion of churches, the 23 sui iuris churches, without changing canonical enrollment. The best of several worlds really. In a country like the US which has immigrants from several traditions having their own churches, it means there is a huge choice of Divine Liturgies for every Catholic.

The Roman Catholic Church is Graeco-Roman, West European in culture and in much of its dogmatic theology. Because it was founded and spread as part of the Roman Empire first and all the West European countries were under the bishop of Rome until the Reformation starting in 1520, nearly fifteen centuries after Apostle Paul first went to Rome!, **it is both universal in nature and Graeco-Roman European in culture. **

Other Catholic churches on the other hand has a local history and culture that is not automatically universal because none of those churches had any political or even religious power outside their own regions.

Really? How is “Western European” Frankish culture anymore universal then any Eastern Church’s culture? Further, while the western Church had a very western Roman, Mediterranean, culture initially, once the Germanic peoples rose to power the church took on a very franko-germanic culture in the west. The language was still latin, but it was no longer purely Roman in culture. It wasn’t until the Renaissance that the western Church recovered the ancient Latin and Greek learning, so at that point I think you could classify it as being Graeco-Roman in culture. That of course, still doesn’t show how the Western Church’s culture is anymore universal then any eastern Church’s. For instance, the Byzantine tradition draws from a variety of earlier ecclesiastical traditions, had stable political power over a larger stretch of land then most western European states (and definitely more then the Papacy had), as well as being a highly literate society preserving the ancient Greek learning and Roman law.

During the middle ages, the Assyrian Christians had a huge world wide cultural influence. There have been fragments of East-Syriac writing found as far away as Mongolia and the Assyrian Church was the first to have missions in China, India, and much of central Asia. A swath of territory much larger then western Europe covering a much wider variety of cultures.

Holding the view that the Roman Church is universal automatically, while Eastern Churches are not goes completely against the current understanding of the Church, and even the past understanding to some extent. The Church as a whole is universal, no particular ritual tradition is universal though, which include the Latin tradition.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

“Holding the view that the Roman Church is universal automatically, while Eastern Churches are not goes completely against the current understanding of the Church, and even the past understanding to some extent.”:I agree with the former poster. The Church Universal is exactly that, Universal. I am canonically Latin Rite, but practice as a Maronite. This is the type of universality that the Catholic Church is supposed to embody. That is, for one to be able to attend another cultural tradition without having to worry if that church is canonical, in communion with so and so etc. The gift of the Universal nature of our Caholic faith is beautiful, and must be understood. That is, ALL the churches comprise ONE BODY of Christ even though we are many. I feel so priviliged to be able to attend a Traitional Latin Mass, Byzantine Divine Liturgy, and a Maronite Qurbana all in the city I live in, which is Cleveland. Let us treasure the various traditions of the church and marvel at the majesty each of them have.

 

[Mariamkutty]

I realize I might have not expressed adequately what I meant by universal.

The Roman Catholic Church has 1.3 BILLION members spread out over all the continents. The 23 sui iuris churches in communion with RCC have very small numbers, and each church has its comparatively small regional area of influence. Consider the extent not only of the Roman Empire but also the Portuguese, Spanish and French colonies which spread Catholicism too. The total number of Orthodox, consisting of many different churches which are marked by their regions, on the other hand has only 350 MILLION members.

 

[GunslingerSaint]

I realize I might have not expressed adequately what I meant by universal.

The Roman Catholic Church has 1.3 BILLION members spread out over all the continents. The 23 sui iuris churches in communion with RCC have very small numbers, and each church has its comparatively small regional area of influence. Consider the extent not only of the Roman Empire but also the Portuguese, Spanish and French colonies which spread Catholicism too. The total number of Orthodox, consisting of many different churches which are marked by their regions, on the other hand has only 350 MILLION members.

The day where those 350 Million People are going to be Eastern Catholic I am going to incense my home

З’нами Богь!

 

[Nowhere_Man]

The day where those 350 Million People are going to be Eastern Catholic I am going to incense my home

’ !