I can’t find evidence of anti-communism in the Bible?

[spiderweb]

Yes, but how am I supposed to know the Church’s opposition to communism isn’t motivated more by fear of losing its property than theological convictions?

Communism places the good of the whole over the good of the individual. Theologically, every individual is of equal value because they are loved infinitely by God. That is the value of the individual. Society depends upon that and derives its strength from that, and not the other way around. Communism reverses the order and places the good of society above the individual.

 

[Vouthon]

But one should note that early church “communalism” wasn’t state-based. There is no injunction anywhere for the state to do what the early church community did, anymore than we expect the state to function like the episcopate.

 

[spiderweb]

I completely get what your saying but the point that I’m making is that, while one makes a voluntary decision to join a monastic community, the abolition of individual ownership is not voluntary within the context of the community.

That’s true, but it is still done by choice. It would be wrong to have a family to support and then sell all your possessions requiring them to beg just to survive, depending on whoever to provide for them. In choosing Bishops, one of the Biblical requirements is that they must have their house and affairs in good order (paraphrasing).

I understand what you are saying and don’t disagree. It’s another classic example of the Catholic both/and rather than either/or.

 

[Curious11]

That’s too vague. Why do you think we put the good of the individual above society in our system? Don’t the rich pay higher taxes for the sake of the poor? Don’t we put criminals in prison to protect society? What is “putting society above the individual”, exactly?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

They’re vague and not to the point, in my honest opinion.

Hardly! Each paragraph is a systematic take down of misreading of particular scriptures often used to support liberation theology.

I can only assume that you have not read it, are intentionally misreading it, or you misunderstand liberation theory altogether and did not actually mean to offer it up as an example of non-atheist communism.

 

[Curious11]

I have read it. It basically says that it is wrong to interpret the freedom and liberation the Bible offers as a political goal of liberating the poor from greedy capitalism, that’s it’s a much deeper and spiritual message.

But I don’t see how that proves communism is incompatible with Christianity

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I have read it. It basically says that it is wrong to interpret the freedom and liberation the Bible offers as a political goal of liberating the poor from greedy capitalism, that’s it’s a much deeper and spiritual message.

But I don’t see how that proves communism is incompatible with Christianity

So that is one piece of the puzzle. Liberation Theology is a combination of biblical social teaching and Marxist ideology. It follows that you’d also need to read the section on Marx in order to get a fuller understanding of the Catholic position on Liberation Theology.

 

[Vouthon]

Marxist communism is more than mere abolition of private ownership (which the church has practised and even encouraged at times within itself).

It is a collectivist ideology with a dialectic of violence, class struggle and a materialist analysis of human history, which aggrandizes the reach of the state into the lives of people living under it to a level that violates subsidiarity and freedom of conscience (rooted as it in our agency as autonomous beings created in the image of God). Both extreme libertarian individualism, on the one hand, and collectivist statism on the other are heresies.

Servant of God Dorothy Day is a famous Catholic who lived as an anarchist socialist, without her political beliefs making her in any way heretical. But statist communism is heretical.

It is Marxism, in all its forms, that the church proscribed.

 

[Curious11]

Read it. I see opposition to Marxism based on atheism and because it can lead to totalitarianism. But it doesn’t show Christianity is incompartible with all forms of communism

 

[Curious11]

You do realize Marx’s goal was the eventual withering away of the state right? The Soviet Union was not what he had in mind when he wrote the communist manifesto or Das Kapital. Marx would have been repelled by the statist totalitarian communism of the Soviet Union

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Read it. I see opposition to Marxism based in atheism and because it can lead to totalitarianism. But it doesn’t show Christianity is incompartible with all forms of communism

You just did it again! No True Scotsman fallacy at its finest!

I ask you for an example of non-atheistic communism. You offered Liberation Theology. I offer you a document denouncing Liberation Theology and you dismiss it because it doesn’t take into account ALL forms of communism. Really?

 

[Vouthon]

Yes, I most certainly do, but the means of dictatorship of the proletariat and class struggle were illegitimate, so the end is irrelevant.

As too were the belief in the necessity of violent politics and the materialist, deterministic understanding of history.

The end doesn’t justify the means in Catholic theology. Plus - in practice - Communism has never advanced to the post-state, money-free utopia. In East Germany, they told kids during the 1950s that currency would be abolished by the year 2000. In 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell, they had had no plans to viably set this in motion. It had been moved to mid-21st century.

 

[Monica83]

Unless you would use government force to convert people to Christianity that doesn’t work. Society in general has mixed beliefs. And in communism, the government has ALL the power-the workers are just part of a machine. No individual rights/liberties. Its “for the greater good” of society-and thats something the oligarchy decides, not the individual. No free will.

 

[Curious11]

No! That document which you claim denounced liberation theology somehow managed to appeal to Marxist atheism as a cause of its opposition, and also because it leads to totalitarianism. Don’t blame me if the source is bad.

It did not mention specific bible passages. Rather it interpreted that liberation theology misinterpreted the Bible. It’s not good enough

But I also say that it does not prove communism is always incompatible with Christianity.

 

[deMontfort]

I would also point out that the Church’s historic condemnation of Marxism is not simply because It’s atheistic: The Church condemns it’s denial of both private property and human liberty among a number of things.

 

[Curious11]

The end doesn’t justify the means in Catholic theology.

The crusades and the inquisition seem to be proof that that isn’t true.

Why is Catholicism opposed to dialectical materialism? Doesn’t the church say people can rebel if they are living in conditions of near slavery?

 

[Curious11]

I know, my question is that where in the Bible is abolition of private property condemned? Other than atheism, I see no theological cause to oppose communism, and not all communists are even atheists

 

[gregoryphealy]

Maybe I’m dead wrong, but that’s what it seems to me.

Why does this matter? Because if the Bible doesn’t say it, Catholics have to rely on the word of the church, which makes it harder to convince non-believes that it’s a question of faith purely, with no politics or worldly interests involved.

Any thoughts on this?

I think you’d be hard-pressed to find condemnation of an 18th century political system within the pages of a first century historical book. The closest the Bible and its adherents come to endorsing communism is through the apostles (as recorded in Acts) and religious communities of today like ascetic and monastic orders. The distinction is that it’s entirely voluntary, and the goal of such communities is not to promote social reform or equitable redistribution of wealth like modern, economic communists, but spiritual improvement and fulfillment of missions of charity. So the new communism of today that the Church condemns is vastly different from the communism that can be practiced faithfully under Catholicism. They, unfortunately, just share the same name.

I think a lot on this forum are conflating the word “communism” solely with that of atheistic communist regimes. And I can’t blame them. The word has been fully coopted by the Marxist-Leninist economic redistributionist type. But I think the Church has only declared that communism to be anathema. So when I say, “The Catholic Church opposes communism” I’m talking about that involuntary, socio-political economic system. And I’m talking about that one because, nominally, that’s the only one that has had broad influence in the past five centuries (and it’s been overwhelmingly negative).

 

[Curious11]

Since when does the Catholic Church oppose oligarchy? For the vast majority of its history it coexisted with oligarchies, and at no time did it issue a protest against the political system, of which it was a large part.

 

[Curious11]

Fine. Then we agree. There are forms of communism that are fully compatible with Christianity