I cannot understand the acts of war by the Israelites in light of Catholic teachings

[Luke_K]

I know there have been many threads about the violent nature of the OT, and how we are supposed to understand the “genocide” committed by the Israelites. I have read this article by Glenn Miller, and while it does help provide some much needed context, I think he was claiming a bit too much in his conclusions. He eventually calls it a “firm, yet just–and even a little merciful to the masses–removal of a people from a tract of land, mostly through migration”…this coming from the original text describing a complete dooming of entire cities, putting all alive in them to the sword and sometimes burning the cities.

Anyways, take a look at what is said in the “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes,” which is from Vatican II. The following quotes are from 79 and 80 in the document, dealing with warfare in the modern world. (The bold emphases are mine.)

Contemplating this melancholy state of humanity, the council wishes, above all things else, to recall the permanent binding force of universal natural law and its all-embracing principles. Man’s conscience itself gives ever more emphatic voice to these principles. Therefore, actions which deliberately conflict with these same principles, as well as orders commanding such actions are criminal, and blind obedience cannot excuse those who yield to them. The most infamous among these are actions designed for the methodical extermination of an entire people, nation or ethnic minority. Such actions must be vehemently condemned as horrendous crimes. The courage of those who fearlessly and openly resist those who issue such commands merits supreme commendation.

A little further in the document, in the context of discussing the consequences of weapons of mass destruction:

With these truths in mind, this most holy synod makes its own the condemnations of total war already pronounced by recent popes,(2) and issues the following declaration.

Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities or extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.

I mean, how can we reconcile the Old Testament with these teachings? The council emphasizes the “permanent binding force of universal natural law and its all-embracing principles”, and this means that it would apply to the Israelites as well, right? And how about the “unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation” of destruction of entire cities?

 

[Windfish]

Have you considered that you have a faulty understanding of what actually went down and how? I am still studying this, but there seems to be huge misunderstandings. Dr. John Bergsma is working on a book on this very subject, and it will be the first book that I am aware of that will be from a Catholic perspective, so keep an eye out for that. In the mean time:

amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305349082&sr=8-1

Again, I am still studying this, so I cannot comment with too much depth, but there seems to be a lot of Hebrew hyperbole used in the text. It is typical of a lot of the deprecatory language used in the ANE. There is also so much that is unsaid (again, typical of Scripture).

 

[StrawberryJam]

I know there have been many threads about the violent nature of the OT, and how we are supposed to understand the “genocide” committed by the Israelites. I have read this article by Glenn Miller, and while it does help provide some much needed context, I think he was claiming a bit too much in his conclusions. He eventually calls it a “firm, yet just–and even a little merciful to the masses–removal of a people from a tract of land, mostly through migration”…this coming from the original text describing a complete dooming of entire cities, putting all alive in them to the sword and sometimes burning the cities.

Anyways, take a look at what is said in the “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes,” which is from Vatican II. The following quotes are from 79 and 80 in the document, dealing with warfare in the modern world. (The bold emphases are mine.)

Strawberry asks: I’m not entirely sure why you put scare quotes around the word genocide. Unless, you are one who believes that the mass killings by the Israelites mentioned in the OT were not literal events.

Without reading the entire document, I can’t be sure if you have taken the document out of context.

I’ll agree that it’s quite a trick to reconcile much if not most the OT with reason.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The genocide committed by the Israelites in conquering the Promised Land was an exception to the rule because it was truly authorized by God. In this case, instead of using the waters of a flood to destroy the wicked of the land as in the case of Noah, God used the armies of Israel as his means to destroy the wicked of the Promised Land.

 

[gentle_atheist]

Here’s a disturbing thought. Imagine what it must be like to believe that the Old Testament is the word of God but not the New Testament. Without the countervailing influence of the New Testament (love your enemies, turn the other cheek) the message of God comes through loud, clear, and unfettered: annihilate your enemies; show them no mercy; wipe them off the face of the earth.

 

[Luke_K]

Strawberry asks: I’m not entirely sure why you put scare quotes around the word genocide. Unless, you are one who believes that the mass killings by the Israelites mentioned in the OT were not literal events.

I put it in quotes because the Palestinian nations were not completely wiped out. The book of Judges says,

The following are the nations which the Lord allowed to remain, so that through them he might try all those Israelites who had no experience of the battles with Canaan: the five lords of the Philistines; and all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwell in the mountain region of Lebanon…These served to put Israel to the test, to determine whether they would obey the commandments the Lord had enjoined on their fathers through Moses. Besides, the Israelites were living among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. In fact, [they intermarried with them] and served their gods. (Judges 3:1-6)

This passage raises more questions, however. In other biblical passages the reason for the killing of these peoples was to prevent the temptation of the Israelites away from God:

“They must not abide in your land, lest they make you sin against me by ensnaring you into worshiping their gods.” (Exodus 23:33)

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. (Deut 7.1-5)

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them – the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites – as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. (Deut 20.16ff)

Things like this make me think that these troubling passages in the Bible are just the result of a later author trying to interpret the history of Israel in the light of their religion.

Windfish:

Again, I am still studying this, so I cannot comment with too much depth, but there seems to be a lot of Hebrew hyperbole used in the text. It is typical of a lot of the deprecatory language used in the ANE. There is also so much that is unsaid (again, typical of Scripture).

Yes, that’s probably part of it. I’m sure it’s important to understand who the authors were of these books. Then we also get into the issue of infallibility of Scripture, and trying to determine what the sacred authors were asserting as true.

 

[manualman]

Here’s a disturbing thought. Imagine what it must be like to believe that the Old Testament is the word of God but not the New Testament. Without the countervailing influence of the New Testament (love your enemies, turn the other cheek) the message of God comes through loud, clear, and unfettered: annihilate your enemies; show them no mercy; wipe them off the face of the earth.

And yet, good luck finding a religious Jew with that worldview! Weird, huh?

Here’s my take: If God parts the sea, has me walk through on dry land, appears as a pillar of fire to drive off my enemies and THEN clearly and undeniably orders me to kill someone He has determined to be irretrievably evil, then and only then does the passage apply to me. Apart from that, only God knows the real difference between the righteous and the Philistines. We’d best leave the smiting to Him, OK?

 

[Bookcat]

Jimmy Akin…senior apologist at Catholic Answers notes a few thoughts here…

jimmyakin.org/2005/08/blunt_commands_.html

 

[Bookcat]

There are actually various approaches that some have taken…but here:

The new Apostolic Exhortation from Pope Benedict XVI can be helpful

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html#The_Interpretation_Of_Sacred_Scripture__In_The_Church

The whole section is important…

but there is a particular section there regarding “dark passages” (as noted in the heading)

 

[Luke_K]

There are actually various approaches that some have taken…but here:

The new Apostolic Exhortation from Pope Benedict XVI can be helpful

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html#The_Interpretation_Of_Sacred_Scripture__In_The_Church

The whole section is important…

but there is a particular section there regarding “dark passages” (as noted in the heading)

Thanks for the link, Bookcat.

 

[StrawberryJam]

And yet, good luck finding a religious Jew with that worldview! Weird, huh?

Here’s my take: If God parts the sea, has me walk through on dry land, appears as a pillar of fire to drive off my enemies and THEN clearly and undeniably orders me to kill someone He has determined to be irretrievably evil, then and only then does the passage apply to me. Apart from that, only God knows the real difference between the righteous and the Philistines. We’d best leave the smiting to Him, OK?

This argument does not logically follow.

 

[manualman]

This argument does not logically follow.

It’s not a single argument. The paragraphs are entirely separate subjects. Sorry for the confusion. Jews are generally not known for megalomania, are they? Curious, given the tenor and note of the OT. Quite a contrast with the influence the Koran has on its followers. I genuinely wonder why?

Separate topic entirely for the second para. The OT Exodus accounts simply don’t apply to us since we aren’t there. They are totally specific to that time and place. If God who knows all ordered the execution of a whole civilization, there must have been utterly nothing good in it or that could come from it. Yikes. But hardly applicable today.

 

[razredge]

Simple, the Jews wrote the scriptures to make it appear as if their acts of genocide were divinely instructed.

Then there is no contradiction between the Old and New Testaments.

 

[chosen_people]

The first question should not be concerning the Israelites but concerning God. Can you understand the concept of the Flood or of Sodom and Gomorrah? Can you understand the bargaining of Abraham with God to save the people if ten righteous men could be found? What we have underlying here is the concept that there can come a time when a person’s acts (or group of peoples acts) are so reprehensible, that a person has been given so many chances of repentance to no avail, that God is no longer willing to forgive. This is one of the concepts discussed by Jewish philosophers in the passage concerning the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. According to this discussion, after the first five plagues God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and was not willing to give Pharaoh any more chances for repentance for the horrendous crimes and sufferings that had been inflicted on the Jewish people. In each and every case of these acts of war it is either clearly stated or clearly implied that this is the case. There are no random acts either by God or by the Israelites. On the contrary, it is Torah that will teach mankind the Divine commandment to not hold a grudge or to seek vengeance and to love your neighbor as yourself. It is Judaism and Torah that will introduce the concepts of moral and ethical behavior to ones enemies (as opposed to the misquotation of Torah in the Christian scripture that it is written “to hate your enemy”). The problem for the Christian is the underlying belief that no matter what has been done and no matter how many times a person has rejected God’s chance of repentance, the way is always open for repentance and salvation up until the moment of death. On a thread on this forum many Catholics argued that if Hitler had been repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart the moment before he shot himself then he is in heaven. Now that is something that I, as a Jew, can neither understand or accept.

 

[Windfish]

Simple, the Jews wrote the scriptures to make it appear as if their acts of genocide were divinely instructed.

Then there is no contradiction between the Old and New Testaments.

Dangit, razredge, you are an awful poster. Just awful.

 

[Luke_K]

The first question should not be concerning the Israelites but concerning God. Can you understand the concept of the Flood or of Sodom and Gomorrah? Can you understand the bargaining of Abraham with God to save the people if ten righteous men could be found? What we have underlying here is the concept that there can come a time when a person’s acts (or group of peoples acts) are so reprehensible, that a person has been given so many chances of repentance to no avail, that God is no longer willing to forgive. This is one of the concepts discussed by Jewish philosophers in the passage concerning the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. According to this discussion, after the first five plagues God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and was not willing to give Pharaoh any more chances for repentance for the horrendous crimes and sufferings that had been inflicted on the Jewish people. In each and every case of these acts of war it is either clearly stated or clearly implied that this is the case. There are no random acts either by God or by the Israelites. On the contrary, it is Torah that will teach mankind the Divine commandment to not hold a grudge or to seek vengeance and to love your neighbor as yourself. It is Judaism and Torah that will introduce the concepts of moral and ethical behavior to ones enemies (as opposed to the misquotation of Torah in the Christian scripture that it is written “to hate your enemy”). The problem for the Christian is the underlying belief that no matter what has been done and no matter how many times a person has rejected God’s chance of repentance, the way is always open for repentance and salvation up until the moment of death. On a thread on this forum many Catholics argued that if Hitler had been repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart the moment before he shot himself then he is in heaven. Now that is something that I, as a Jew, can neither understand or accept.

I believe that God has the right to kill people himself if he wants. My difficulty is that he commanded humans to do it.

This site gives the best explanation I’ve read so far.

 

[razredge]

Dangit, razredge, you are an awful poster. Just awful.

How so?, it’s by far the simplest and most plausible explanation - if you want to try and reconcile the loving God of the New Testament with the tyrant of the Old Testament then go ahead - though I’ve never seen anyone manage to do this successfully.

 

[StrawberryJam]

How so?, it’s by far the simplest and most plausible explanation - if you want to try and reconcile the loving God of the New Testament with the tyrant of the Old Testament then go ahead - though I’ve never seen anyone manage to do this successfully.

There was no defense of belief in that reply. It’s very easy to discredit your person, even though that is a rule violation. It is far more difficult to rise to the challenge and actually address this uncomfortable situation.

But, it’s been done by many for many years so, it’s merits are…

 

[TimothyH]

Gaudium et Spes rightfully condemns “the methodical extermination of an entire people, nation or ethnic minority.” but qualifies this with the word “Indisciminantly” a little further on.

God did not wipe out people and nations indescriminantly.

Sodom was an amazingly wicked city and the people were brutal to the point of men raping men to death. Many of the other nations worshpped the god Molech, whereby the God was an idol with large arms full of burning coals on which they would burn their children. Their worship often consisted of temple prostitutes, orgies and rape. These were not innocent people whom God commanded Israel to destroy and they had all seen and heard of the amazing things God had done for Israel like parting the sea, stopping the flow of the Jordan River. destroying the walls of Jericho with a trumpet blast and defeating a mighty nation with only 300 soldiers. God wrned them and waited patiently but they didn’t listen.

Many times the nations repented as well, and God relented. Ninevah is one such case.

And who is to say that we are not the same? What were the 620,000 dead during the US Civil War all about? Perhaps it was about 450 years of slavery? Do we not see God’s hand there? And when will God get fed up with us over abortion and contraception?

God does not command the killing the destruction of nations indescriminantly. He descriminates very much.

-Tim-

 

[StrawberryJam]

Gaudium et Spes rightfully condemns “the methodical extermination of an entire people, nation or ethnic minority.” but qualifies this with the word “Indisciminantly” a little further on.

God did not wipe out people and nations indescriminantly.

Sodom was an amazingly wicked city and the people were brutal to the point of men raping men to death. Many of the other nations worshpped the god Molech, whereby the God was an idol with large arms full of burning coals on which they would burn their children. Their worship often consisted of temple prostitutes, orgies and rape. These were not innocent people whom God commanded Israel to destroy and they had all seen and heard of the amazing things God had done for Israel like parting the sea, stopping the flow of the Jordan River. destroying the walls of Jericho with a trumpet blast and defeating a mighty nation with only 300 soldiers. God wrned them and waited patiently but they didn’t listen.

Many times the nations repented as well, and God relented. Ninevah is one such case.

And who is to say that we are not the same? What were the 620,000 dead during the US Civil War all about? Perhaps it was about 450 years of slavery? Do we not see God’s hand there? And when will God get fed up with us over abortion and contraception?

God does not command the killing the destruction of nations indescriminantly. He descriminates very much.

-Tim-

450 years of slavery? I want to be smoking what you are smoking. Share.