I cant become a Catholic because of this, am I right?

[ConstantineTG]

No one is forcing anyone onto anyone. Where you are getting this?

Who knows what the grounds for annulment is? That’s none of our business and we can’t determine that here anyway, that’s the job of the advocate/priest/tribunal.

It’s Jesus’ rule. Marriage lasts until death. Civil divorce does not undo marriage.

Well, it’s seems now it’s divorce and enter the Church as a celibate moving forward, or not enter the Church. Why do we have to force an annulment then as the only recourse of this person? So if she can’t annul the first and is not willing to divorce the second then she will never become Catholic?

What will you do if your first marriage is not annulled? Would you be willing to get a separation from him so that you can join the Church?

This is my question as well. That is a steep price to pay for most of us.

There may or may not be grounds for annulment, but abominableangel won’t know until she tries. She wants an annulment because she is in love with her current (legal, at least in the eyes of the state) husband. If her spouse is not legitamately her husband in the eyes of God and the Church than she cannot legitamately particpate in the sacraments of the Church, as she would then be living in serious sin.

But given that there isn’t anything seriously wrong with the first marriage, it just went bad, how can you annul it? Or are we divorcing under the pretense of annulment?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hi Constantine, you were very kind to me in the Eastern Catholic forum

You seem to be advocating “Ecclesiastical Divorce”, which the Orthodox have, correct?

If so, I heavily sympathize and am not so sure it’s a bad idea. But I will give you the official Catholic responses anyhow, which I do at least find coherent.

Well, it’s seems now it’s divorce and enter the Church as a celibate moving forward, or not enter the Church. Why do we have to force an annulment then as the only recourse of this person? So if she can’t annul the first and is not willing to divorce the second then she will never become Catholic?

It’s unfortunate, I know, but people sometimes have extremely heavy crosses to bear. It is a great fear of mine when I get married, but it is a risk I have to take. Marriage is serious business and has serious consequences.

This is my question as well. That is a steep price to pay for most of us.

Yes, it is.

But given that there isn’t anything seriously wrong with the first marriage, it just went bad, how can you annul it? Or are we divorcing under the pretense of annulment?

But we don’t know what specifically was wrong with the first marriage. That’s what the tribunal is for. If you get married at 18 a lot of things could theoretically be clouding your judgment and making the marriage invalid. We don’t know, so applying for an annulment seems like a good option to figure out if you’re really sinning or not anyway.

With all of this said, I don’t think the Orthodox concept of Ecclesiastical divorce is necessarily a bad one anyway.

 

[djmigs213]

I agree with joanofarc said, those steps are really helpful. Dont think that your parents are anti catholic just follow your heart what is supposed to be nice to you…

לימודי קבלה

 

[abominableangel]

I wasnt specific when i spoke of my first marriage so i will clarify about it… well just because I can really.

my ex and I met when we were 15 and 17 respectivly in 1995
we started having a sexual relationship virtually after that, he was my first, we remained as boyfriend and girlfriend for 4 years marrying in July 1999

We had been going through ups and downs, but I have to say mostly downs, I in my stupidity thought that if I became his wife things would change and improve, so on a whim I asked him as he was driving me home if he would marry me. We then went right through my front door and told my parents we wanted to plan our wedding.

me and my mother planned the whole thing, he didnt want to know, which was upsetting and not going according to plan, the day of the wedding arrived and I was told to wait as he and his grooms men were still in the pub… this infuriated me.

when I got to the alter his breath stunk of whisky, he was by no means drunk but I’d rather not have had to kiss him like that.

then the moment we went on honeymoon that was it … all i was to do was to cook, clean and entertain myself… i was bored stiff, he didnt want to know me in any sence least of all biblically.

then we continued to stay at my parents house, a non eventful year, i was left at home, he went fishing or down the pub… i was getting lonelier and lonelier…

click round to valantines day … i knew i was going to be left high and dry, I planned it all meal, flowers, hotel … sure enough i was right, he hadnt even remembered no big deal ok
our wedding anniversary came round, i spent all week telling him when it was so he wouldnt forget, i got nice clothes to wear i bought him a card and a rose, i had hoped he take me out to dinner as his gift ( he never liked sharing his money or recources it was my money his money all the time) instead what i got was oops i forgot and he went across the road and got a card filled it out next to me and handed it to me, I knew then that things would always be this way i was so lonely I took a job as a photographer and traveled the country, he never called was never bothered where i was i didnt exist…

my parents had tried to warn me, my mum tried to talk me out of it when i got to the church i wish i had listened.

after that i started divorce proceedings and in less than 6 months my “marriage” was over …

i got remarried in 2004 to my husband now and though life has thrown many a thing our way we are still stuck together like glue, he has stood by me when I went crazy (yes true) I’ve been institutionalised and diagnosed Bipolar 1 (manic depression) with psychotic features sounds like fun doesnt it:whacky: he could have blasted himself out of there, but he didnt he said hes not leaving me that he loves me and he’ll face this demon head on with me (WHAT A GUY!!!) my ex wouldnt have done this i’d have been put on blast as soon as I got put in the hospital left to rot in my hospital gown.

my impetuousness has cost me so dearly over my life time i rush in and make very huge mistakes like getting married at the age of 18 to a guy who doesnt acknowledge your existance…
i often end up doing stunts like this, it usually manifests now in me remodeling my house and hubby coming home to carnage, or I’ve spent loads of cash on stuff we dont want nor need… the worst times are when I get angry, bipolar rage isnt fun not for me and least of all for anyone else…

I had carried on for years like this and people just thought i was eccentric, i was in fact deeply unwell and needed help, if id had that help sooner rather than later i doubt i would have married him as i would have been thinking clearly.

 

[maltmom]

All of that is what the tribunal needs to hear. I will pray for you.

 

[agapewolf]

Well, it’s seems now it’s divorce and enter the Church as a celibate moving forward, or not enter the Church. Why do we have to force an annulment then as the only recourse of this person? So if she can’t annul the first and is not willing to divorce the second then she will never become Catholic?

What? why do we force an annulment? What are you talking about?

no one “forces” anything.

Again, Jesus said marriage lasts until death. Why are YOU trying to change his rules?

 

[mamaslo]

Hey, I can completely understand your frustration. I was an agnostic when I got married and didn’t care whatsoever that my husband was previously married. Now here we are, we have been attending mass for 8 years now and are raising our kids Catholic, yet we are unable to receive the Sacraments. It’s just something you have to speak to your priest about and find out what you need to do in order to start the annulment process. I would encourage you to live out the Catholic faith as best you can despite being out of the Church. My husband and I threw out all artificial birth control 5 years ago, and we attend Mass with our kids. I confess my sins in the best Protestant way possible. God knows our situations and I believe He will be understanding and forgiving when we meet Him face to face someday.

But yes, it does depress me at times to think that I am being punished for something I did while I was agnostic. I was raised a Protestant and knew nothing about the Catholic Church at the time.

I do not understand why you consider this a punishment. The Church is gracious and has a way to examen your first marriage to find out if you may have all these things you want. Have you begun the process for yourself?

peace.

 

[mamaslo]

I wasnt specific when i spoke of my first marriage so i will clarify about it… well just because I can really…my impetuousness has cost me so dearly over my life time i rush in and make very huge mistakes like getting married at the age of 18 to a guy who doesnt acknowledge your existance…
i often end up doing stunts like this, it usually manifests now in me remodeling my house and hubby coming home to carnage, or I’ve spent loads of cash on stuff we dont want nor need… the worst times are when I get angry, bipolar rage isnt fun not for me and least of all for anyone else…

I had carried on for years like this and people just thought i was eccentric, i was in fact deeply unwell and needed help, if id had that help sooner rather than later i doubt i would have married him as i would have been thinking clearly.

I really wanted to include all of this but it is so long…and I didn’t want anyone to think I was responding to anything else.

I agree with MaltMom…the tribunal needs to hear this. It sounds like you have in your head what you would write down…but they do want to know leading up to the wedding, maybe other things that happened, things your parents and other friends and family mentioned. You can ask them to be witnesses and tell their side of the story about why they were leary of this man. It gives everyone a chance to be heard. It would bring healing to all those who love you, and to yourself.

I am sorry you also got the cross of bipolar to bear but I bet when treated you are better and you hopefully can see your strengths and talents that no one else has but you.

Another thing is that there is a group here for support of those going through divorce and annulments. I have found them to be very supportive and there is also a canon lawyer who might be able to answer some questions.

I am really sorry you have been through a lot, but you can clear up the marriage issue. You just have to get started. I hope it works out in such a way that brings you much peace.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hi Constantine, you were very kind to me in the Eastern Catholic forum

You seem to be advocating “Ecclesiastical Divorce”, which the Orthodox have, correct?

If so, I heavily sympathize and am not so sure it’s a bad idea. But I will give you the official Catholic responses anyhow, which I do at least find coherent.

Well, if the Church wants to allow only annulments, then the Church should only allow annulment. I just find it sad that there are a lot of divorces happening that the Church allows under the pretense of annulments. The defect in canonical form is just becoming a toy for canon lawyers the same way secular laws are toys for secular lawyers. I am troubled that people who have had happy marriages for years suddenly find reasons to annul their marriage just because it went south one day. Suddenly their marriage was invalid all along?

It’s unfortunate, I know, but people sometimes have extremely heavy crosses to bear. It is a great fear of mine when I get married, but it is a risk I have to take. Marriage is serious business and has serious consequences.

Definitely! I think it is what lacks in society today, that people take marriage so lightly. The reason marriages fail today is people doesn’t take it as serious as it should be. There is a lack of that “total giving of oneself to the marriage”.

Yes, it is.

But we don’t know what specifically was wrong with the first marriage. That’s what the tribunal is for. If you get married at 18 a lot of things could theoretically be clouding your judgment and making the marriage invalid. We don’t know, so applying for an annulment seems like a good option to figure out if you’re really sinning or not anyway.

I don’t mean to sound offensive here and I’m not directing this at you, but I think the excuse itself which I know is something you just picked up from somewhere, is pathetic. If it was a shotgun marriage or if they were drunk and got married and Vegas, then it is an invalid marriage. Otherwise, I don’t know what else can cloud one’s judgement into marriage.

With all of this said, I don’t think the Orthodox concept of Ecclesiastical divorce is necessarily a bad one anyway.

I think the best thing out of that is that it is clearly something out of ekonomia (economy) and any divorce is a penitentiary act. If you divorce you are to be sorry for your sin. You dissolved the undissolvable, it is a sin. Annulment is not a sin because it is said that the marriage never took place even though the person lived with the other for years and have beget a number of children, etc. (among other scenarios). I think that is what the Catholic way is missing, is that we’re handing “get out of jail free” cards (and some will say that their marriage is indeed like a prison) and we treat the second marriage (and let us not fool ourselves here, it IS a second marriage) is equal to the first. And the worst part really for me is how some people whom I cannot imagine why their marriage was null and void do get their marriages null and void.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What? why do we force an annulment? What are you talking about?

no one “forces” anything.

So if there is no annulment and no divorce, the OP doesn’t get to enter the Church. Sure, no one is forcing anything there.

Again, Jesus said marriage lasts until death. Why are YOU trying to change his rules?

I’m not the one handing out annulments left and right.

 

[abominableangel]

does anyone have an example copy of the questionaire i would have to fill out, ive looked online but not had any luck

 

[mamaslo]

I know you would like to have a list to mull it over. It has been a while since I have seen the file. It would be better to make the pastoral connection with the priest. They may have something on your diocesan website. I don’t think our parish website has it.

our dio website has this…
ptdiocese.org/page.asp?pageID=281
so yours might also. I am not sure if the questions are universal but maybe they are.

 

[agapewolf]

So if there is no annulment and no divorce, the OP doesn’t get to enter the Church. Sure, no one is forcing anything there.

I’m not the one handing out annulments left and right.

No, no one is forcing anything here. The op made a choice, and even though she may not be culpable till now, she is living in a public state of adultery. Marriage lasts until death. If she continues to stay with her current husband, she continues to commit adultery, because marriage lasts until death. “Coming into the church” won’t do anyone any good, when living in a persistent state of sin.

The church is NOT handing out annulments left and right, but I really don’t see what that has to do with anything.

First you think she should be able to come into the church without an annulment, and then you have a problem with annulments being given at all.

You aren’t making sense here. Take it up with Jesus if you don’t like the rule.

 

[GaryTaylor]

does anyone have an example copy of the questionaire i would have to fill out, ive looked online but not had any luck

Do you believe the Lord led you to His church? Then go to His Church and explain this to the Father. Have Faith and pray!

Peace

 

[jmcrae]

the most distressing thing is, if my annulment isnt granted I can never become Catholic or even if I could without being able to have the Eucharist it would be fruitless in the literal sence.

I failed the entry exam before I even applied and all because of shoddy theology, gutted doesnt even come close.

Put your trust in God, and go through the process. Be happily surprised if your Declaration of Nullity is granted, and see what God has in store for you instead, if not. Remember, God has brought you this far, and He is faithful to keep His promises. One way or another, He will win - but not if you give up before you even start.

There are no guarantees in this life, but you can’t win if you don’t play.

They don’t put the questions on-line because it’s nobody else’s business. You will get your questions; other people get their questions.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well, if the Church wants to allow only annulments, then the Church should only allow annulment. I just find it sad that there are a lot of divorces happening that the Church allows under the pretense of annulments. The defect in canonical form is just becoming a toy for canon lawyers the same way secular laws are toys for secular lawyers. I am troubled that people who have had happy marriages for years suddenly find reasons to annul their marriage just because it went south one day. Suddenly their marriage was invalid all along?

Yeah, I agree. On the other hand, we don’t know how many of the marriages were actually worthy of annulment, so I don’t think we should judge in individual cases.

Definitely! I think it is what lacks in society today, that people take marriage so lightly. The reason marriages fail today is people doesn’t take it as serious as it should be. There is a lack of that “total giving of oneself to the marriage”.

I absolutely agree.

I don’t mean to sound offensive here and I’m not directing this at you, but I think the excuse itself which I know is something you just picked up from somewhere, is pathetic. If it was a shotgun marriage or if they were drunk and got married and Vegas, then it is an invalid marriage. Otherwise, I don’t know what else can cloud one’s judgement into marriage.

Who knows? That’s for the tribunal to decide. Might the tribunal get it wrong? Absolutely. But it’s their job to try and figure it out, not ours.

I think the best thing out of that is that it is clearly something out of ekonomia (economy) and any divorce is a penitentiary act. If you divorce you are to be sorry for your sin. You dissolved the undissolvable, it is a sin. Annulment is not a sin because it is said that the marriage never took place even though the person lived with the other for years and have beget a number of children, etc. (among other scenarios). I think that is what the Catholic way is missing, is that we’re handing “get out of jail free” cards (and some will say that their marriage is indeed like a prison) and we treat the second marriage (and let us not fool ourselves here, it IS a second marriage) is equal to the first. And the worst part really for me is how some people whom I cannot imagine why their marriage was null and void do get their marriages null and void.

I think that ecclesiastical divorce is a concept that the Church should really explore more, and I think it’s unfortunate that we’re not considering it.

 

[abominableangel]

WOW!.. I’ve sparked some heavy debate here eek!

I can’t speak for the tone some of the responses were written in, I dont know whether they are jugmental or kind but I have to admit it seems like some posters on this threat think I’m being dismissive or flippant about wanting an annulment, thats a tad cruel.

it seems that people think im being oh so casual, like “oh yeah I’ll get an annulment through ok … piece of cake!” or " I want what I want now because I want it and I’ve already gotten remarried so there stick that in your pipe and smoke it" I’m not that dence! I know full well I could be told no.

I asked the question here to straighten out my thoughts, to see if my assumptions were indeed correct, I wasnt asking anyone if they could “diagnose” my previous marriage to see if i had a case, I know I have to go to the tribunal i only posted it here because at the moment I dont have access to a priest whom I could start the proceedings with, I’m moving to a totally different county, there would be no point starting it where i am now as in a month im leaving the area, its something for me to bring up with the priest down there.

there was a question written “would I leave my current husband if I was denied an annulment”… I wish I had a good answer for you, I don’t know if i could even though I know I should. I wonder how many here including the person who asked me this, if in my situation could leave their spouse? I’m thinking few to none.

needless to say I am far than peachy over this situation, I’m not mad at God or the church thinking this is just rings of fire they want me to jump through for their amusment, I’m angry that I’d never heard of this, that due to being mislead or the witholding of this information has caused me to land neck deep in cow dung and I have Henry the VIII to thank.

I made a terrible mistake in the past, its tied me all up in knots now I have to start unravaling the mess

 

[jmcrae]

there was a question written “would I leave my current husband if I was denied an annulment”… I wish I had a good answer for you, I don’t know if i could even though I know I should. I wonder how many here including the person who asked me this, if in my situation could leave their spouse? I’m thinking few to none.

Nor do I think you should. The welfare of your family comes first. I have no doubt that God will see you through this mess, if you are patient and prompt and obedient throughout the process.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Nor do I think you should. The welfare of your family comes first. I have no doubt that God will see you through this mess, if you are patient and prompt and obedient throughout the process.

Well, God will see her through. But we have no idea if she’ll be granted the annulment.

 

[Irishgal49]

What will you do if your first marriage is not annulled? Would you be willing to get a separation from him so that you can join the Church?

That is totally not necessary. Why are you saying that? Go to a priest and see about an annulment. He can review your situation and get the ball rolling. That way, you may be able to have it done around the time your RCIA would be done. You can sometimes have your convalidation done when you become Catholic. Talk to a priest and don’t freak out…it’s very possible.