I can't decide if I am Catholic or Protestant!

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Guys do you know what the best evidence is for the early Church venerating Mary so mightily and praying to dead Saints?

Again thank you all so much. God bless you.
 
slh…Yes…preacher men put such a fear in their followers that their are so afraid to even look at Catholic materials.

I was staying at a friend’s house, a devout Baptist. We knew each other since childhood and roomed together in college. Anyway, afterwards…went to visit her and stayed at her home a few days. She admitted Catholic liturgies were very beautiful.

I was developing a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. But when I would put the booklet down…and may be I was wrong to read Jesus prayers in her living room, but when I would come back, she would turn the booklet over so you couldn’t see the face of Our Lord…this particular painting done by an unknown artist. I even saw Africans having it in their little chapel in SE Africa when I did missionary work there.

It hurt me but didn’t say anything. But it shows to me…they understand Christ as True God but do not relate to His humanity. It is through Christ, the Living Word of God, that the carnate world was made…and He is the crown of salvation, His humanity given Him through the Holy Spirit and Mary’s yes.

Such a high position for a human creature…in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to bring forth the Messiah into the world. They are so against Mary … just another nice woman. Shows profound lack of understanding of the effect of sin and limited understanding of the virtues, which further more cause them not to reflect on their positions so they could be more open otherwise.

I see such fundamentalist groups as being in spiritual bondage and we pray for our separated brethren.
 
Guys, many of you have mentioned lots of books and that’s awesome. If I could only read ONE book on Catholic apologetics…which is the best? Because I am going to buy one this weekend. I want the BEST of The BEST!
 
Guys do you know what the best evidence is for the early Church venerating Mary so mightily and praying to dead Saints?

Again thank you all so much. God bless you.
Guys, many of you have mentioned lots of books and that’s awesome. If I could only read ONE book on Catholic apologetics…which is the best? Because I am going to buy one this weekend. I want the BEST of The BEST!
I know you asked for one book but this really needs two because there are two excellent sources that will best handle what you are asking about.

shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/h/the-protestants-dilemma.jpg
The Protestant’s Dilemma

shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/e/refutingattackmary.jpg
Refuting The Attack on Mary

A third recently discovered choice…

shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/a/radio-replies_1.jpg
Radio Replies: Classic Answers to Timeless Questions About the Catholic Faith
 
St redemption, i have Protestant’s Dilemma, i can say it’s a good one 🙂
 
Guys do you know what the best evidence is for the early Church venerating Mary so mightily and praying to dead Saints?

Again thank you all so much. God bless you.
From conception when God gives us our soul, we are immortal. The soul doesn’t die. It doesn’t sleep. Life after death, is eternal and starts immediately after the death of the body. And life after death goes on FOREVER. for the good AND the bad. So the question is, where is Life everlasting going to be for the individual…heaven or hell?
  • Luke 16:19-31 In the next life, memory intellect and will is fully functional forever, whether in heaven, or hell. (purgatory being temporary, and souls will go to heaven after that process). Since the DEAD can’t communicate, obviously in the next life the dead aren’t** DEAD NOR ASLEEP. **And notice Jesus is telling the story
  • Matthew 17:1-9 Again, if **DEAD **people are DEAD then one is either denying the afterlife, or they don’t know when it begins. This episode on top of Mt Tabor shows Moses and Elijah aren’t DEAD in the next life. They’re not asleep in the next life. When my protestant friends bring up Catholics praying to DEAD saints, I ask them, are these passages showing life of Saints speaking in the next life, and conversing, somehow absent from YOUR bibles? Moses and Elijah at this point haven’t been seen for thousands of years. Yet there they are in the next life, visible, and able to converse with them, and Peter is ready to make 3 tents ( σκηνάς tabernacles) for Jesus Moses and Elijah. This would be a GREAT PLACE for Jesus to say to His apostles, and particularly Peter, don’t even think about talking to these guys, and Peter absolutely do NOT make tents for Moses and Elijah. They’re DEAD. Obviously Jesus didn’t say that to His apostles, and protestants have this whole after life completely wrong.
Re: Mary

Here’s an 11 minute catechism lesson on Mary. It’s well worth the 11 minutes. Hit pause as many times as necessary to make notes. youtube.com/watch?v=xg2OQ_iPTv8
 
From conception when God gives us our soul, we are immortal. The soul doesn’t die. It doesn’t sleep. Life after death, is eternal and starts immediately after the death of the body. And life after death goes on FOREVER. for the good AND the bad. So the question is, where is Life everlasting going to be for the individual…heaven or hell?
  • Luke 16:19-31 In the next life, memory intellect and will is fully functional forever, whether in heaven, or hell. (purgatory being temporary, and souls will go to heaven after that process). Since the DEAD can’t communicate, obviously in the next life the dead aren’t** DEAD NOR ASLEEP. **And notice Jesus is telling the story
  • Matthew 17:1-9 Again, if **DEAD **people are DEAD then one is either denying the afterlife, or they don’t know when it begins. This episode on top of Mt Tabor shows Moses and Elijah aren’t DEAD in the next life. They’re not asleep in the next life. When my protestant friends bring up Catholics praying to DEAD saints, I ask them, are these passages showing life of Saints speaking in the next life, and conversing, somehow absent from YOUR bibles? Moses and Elijah at this point haven’t been seen for thousands of years. Yet there they are in the next life, visible, and able to converse with them, and Peter is ready to make 3 tents ( σκηνάς tabernacles) for Jesus Moses and Elijah. This would be a GREAT PLACE for Jesus to say to His apostles, and particularly Peter, don’t even think about talking to these guys, and Peter absolutely do NOT make tents for Moses and Elijah. They’re DEAD. Obviously Jesus didn’t say that to His apostles, and protestants have this whole after life completely wrong.
Re: Mary

Here’s an 11 minute catechism lesson on Mary. It’s well worth the 11 minutes. Hit pause as many times as necessary to make notes. youtube.com/watch?v=xg2OQ_iPTv8
Well, I don’t know about that. I think most Protestants believe conscious life continues immediately after death and forever. *Some *believe that the “life of the soul” is somehow suspended until the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. Which ones believe thus and in what numbers I do not know. IMO, Protestants don’t object to praying to the saints so much because they’re “dead”, even the ones who believe that the saints are now with God rapt in the Beatific Vision, but because they think that we should only pray to God alone. Why they think the Good Lord would take offense at the members of the Church on earth asking for the prayers from the members of “the great cloud of witnesses”, his intimate friends who behold Him face-to-face, is beyond me.

After all, that is what John actually saw taking place in the eternal heavenly liturgy:

“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

So we see the prayers of the saints offered like incense before the Throne of God through the hands of the “twenty-four elders” and the angels.

The idea of prayer being like rising incense is found in Psalm 141 (and probably other places in the OT):

Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
 
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

So we see the prayers of the saints offered like incense before the Throne of God through the hands of the “twenty-four elders” and the angels.

The idea of prayer being like rising incense is found in Psalm 141 (and probably other places in the OT):

Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
Those passages refute the protestant assumption (except some anglicans if I’m not wrong) that is only God who directly receives our prayers. Why should God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, need intermediaries to receive our prayers? The reason is a mystery and at the same time easy to understand: Because He wants. That’s certainly, omnipotence. The Bible and the Apostolic Tradition teach God has wanted (and is pleased) there is a Communion of saints, living and the dead. When some protestant fundamentalists claim that the intercession of dead members of this Communion is not only unnecesary but that practice contradicts 1 Tim 2:5 they’re falling in the usual and defective protestant theology of either/or. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” is a soteriologic verse, in the sense that Jesus is the mediator between God and men** for the salvation** of each one of us. Is not about Jesus mediates betwen us and God when we pray There is not a single verse in the Bible to support this but there are verses where God receives our prayers by mediation of members of His Communion of saints.

Those verses also point that there is a kind of omniscience (a divine attribute) that those members enjoy besides God. Because if they bring our prayers to God they must be able to hear our thoughts , separate and discerning our prayers from our wordly thinkings just before to give our prayers to God. That’s not illogical. There is no limit for God’s omnipotence, and if He has wanted to make the members of the Communion of saints that are in His presence partakers of His divine nature He can also make those same members partakers of His divine attributes. Those aren’t attributes they ‘per se’ possess, rather attributes and roles that God shares with them because previously they have been perfectly sanctified by God and because God wants they interact with us in His Communion of saints.
 
Those passages refute the protestant assumption (except some anglicans if I’m not wrong) that is only God who directly receives our prayers. Why should God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, need intermediaries to receive our prayers? The reason is a mystery and at the same time easy to understand: Because He wants. That’s certainly, omnipotence. The Bible and the Apostolic Tradition teach God has wanted (and is pleased) there is a Communion of saints, living and the dead. When some protestant fundamentalists claim that the intercession of dead members of this Communion is not only unnecesary but that practice contradicts 1 Tim 2:5 they’re falling in the usual and defective protestant theology of either/or. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” is a soteriologic verse, in the sense that Jesus is the mediator between God and men** for the salvation** of each one of us. Is not about Jesus mediates betwen us and God when we pray There is not a single verse in the Bible to support this but there are verses where God receives our prayers by mediation of members of His Communion of saints.

Those verses also point that there is a kind of omniscience (a divine attribute) that those members enjoy besides God. Because if they bring our prayers to God they must be able to hear our thoughts , separate and discerning our prayers from our wordly thinkings just before to give our prayers to God. That’s not illogical. There is no limit for God’s omnipotence, and if He has wanted to make the members of the Communion of saints that are in His presence partakers of His divine nature He can also make those same members partakers of His divine attributes. Those aren’t attributes they ‘per se’ possess, rather attributes and roles that God shares with them because previously they have been perfectly sanctified by God and because God wants they interact with us in His Communion of saints.
Having been Protestant, I can say say with certainty the following:

a) Most Protestants believe that “prayers to saints” are superstitious.

b) Most Protestants do not believe that we, on this side of physical death, can or should try to contact those on the other side. However, I’ve still yet to understand the many who say when someone dies, “Well, they’ll be watching over us in Heaven” or “They got their angel wings today”, etc.

c) Many Protestants believe the word “saints” in Revelation refers to the Christians still on earth; not necessarily those in heaven (for whatever reason 🤷)

d) As you mentioned above, most Protestants have a problem with “praying” to saints because they believe that our prayers should go directly to God. Their problem lies in their faulty understanding of and our cultural use of the word “pray”. Since, typically, we use the word “pray” in conjunction with God instead of its real meaning which is “to ask”, a huge misunderstanding of a Catholic’s intent gets created. Honestly, I prefer to use the phrases “pray through the saints” or “ask the saints to pray for me”.

e) Most have never thought through their objection; it’s an automatic rejection because of their rejection of the Catholic Church. I know I was this way until a friend pointed out that I would have no problem asking another Christian to pray for me if I were in need so what is the difference in asking a saint (WHO IS IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD) to also pray for me. As the Bible says, they are more alive than we are and surely their prayers availeth much 🙂

Also, I would add that there is much confusion in Protestantism about exactly what happens to our souls upon physical death. I know that that I grew up with never a clear picture of that. Two of the “theories” I heard were that our souls went immediately to heaven or hell or we went into soul sleep until the resurrection.
 
Having been Protestant, I can say say with certainty the following:

a) Most Protestants believe that “prayers to saints” are superstitious.

b) Most Protestants do not believe that we, on this side of physical death, can or should try to contact those on the other side. However, I’ve still yet to understand the many who say when someone dies, “Well, they’ll be watching over us in Heaven” or “They got their angel wings today”, etc.

c) Many Protestants believe the word “saints” in Revelation refers to the Christians still on earth; not necessarily those in heaven (for whatever reason 🤷)

d) As you mentioned above, most Protestants have a problem with “praying” to saints because they believe that our prayers should go directly to God. Their problem lies in their faulty understanding of and our cultural use of the word “pray”. Since, typically, we use the word “pray” in conjunction with God instead of its real meaning which is “to ask”, a huge misunderstanding of a Catholic’s intent gets created. Honestly, I prefer to use the phrases “pray through the saints” or “ask the saints to pray for me”.

e) Most have never thought through their objection; it’s an automatic rejection because of their rejection of the Catholic Church. I know I was this way until a friend pointed out that I would have no problem asking another Christian to pray for me if I were in need so what is the difference in asking a saint (WHO IS IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD) to also pray for me. As the Bible says, they are more alive than we are and surely their prayers availeth much 🙂

Also, I would add that there is much confusion in Protestantism about exactly what happens to our souls upon physical death. I know that that I grew up with never a clear picture of that. Two of the “theories” I heard were that our souls went immediately to heaven or hell or we went into soul sleep until the resurrection.
You explain some of the reasons why protestantism is material heresy.
 
Well, I don’t know about that. I think most Protestants believe conscious life continues immediately after death and forever. *Some *believe that the “life of the soul” is somehow suspended until the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. Which ones believe thus and in what numbers I do not know.
To use a good Catholic term…BINGO! 😃

They’re all over the map. Soul sleep, waiting til the 2nd coming, etc etc
d:
IMO, Protestants don’t object to praying to the saints so much because they’re “dead”, even the ones who believe that the saints are now with God rapt in the Beatific Vision, but because they think that we should only pray to God alone.
Yes, THEY think pray = worship. It can in the right context, but that’s not the be all to end all definition of pray. Pray = Ask.
  • Do protestants ask friends to pray for them or for some intention of theirs? Yes.
What would they say if one returns this answer to them,

Why are you worshiping me? Don’t pray to me, and I won’t pray for you. You can ask God yourself for your own intentions. Don’t ask ME to interceed for you.

Holy Cow :rolleyes: they didn’t think their arguments through on that one

Catholics just have a vast uncountable number in our family that we ask to pray for us and we make no excuses for that, we celebrate it
d:
Why they think the Good Lord would take offense at the members of the Church on earth asking for the prayers from the members of “the great cloud of witnesses”, his intimate friends who behold Him face-to-face, is beyond me.
Bingo!
d:
After all, that is what John actually saw taking place in the eternal heavenly liturgy:

“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

So we see the prayers of the saints offered like incense before the Throne of God through the hands of the “twenty-four elders” and the angels.

The idea of prayer being like rising incense is found in Psalm 141 (and probably other places in the OT):

Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
Bingo!
 
You explain some of the reasons why protestantism is material heresy.
Yes, the more I have studied Church history, I can see the various heresies that the early Church dealt with live and well in Protestantism. Sad thing is, though, that Protestants are so ignorant on Church history that they don’t see any problem with those beliefs. For most, just as with Cradle Catholics who have never researched their faith on their own, it’s all they know 🤷
 
Yes, the more I have studied Church history, I can see the various heresies that the early Church dealt with live and well in Protestantism. Sad thing is, though, that Protestants are so ignorant on Church history that they don’t see any problem with those beliefs. For most, just as with Cradle Catholics who have never researched their faith on their own, it’s all they know 🤷
Thus the call for the new evangelization. 🙂 What is the “New Evangelization?”

Catholics evangelized the world to begin with. It’s time we get busy doing it again… one by one
 
Thanks for the response. My responses will be in red;

I have many charges against Protestantism. I only answered some Catholic charges that I have here because you are Catholic 🙂 I have a long way to go. And you guys are helping me get there. Lets keep dialogue open. Thanks for all of your time 🙂
i would recomend – viewing the u tube – early church fathers-- by ken johnson-- and getting his book-- he is the author of 21 books-- and he is not demoninational – trying to prove a point-

youtu.be/YnrJAiVK8RQ

prolific writer Dr. Ken Johnson to discuss a handful of his books. They discuss the ancient church father’s and their teachings, history of the world, messianic festivals and much more.

i would also recomend – find a church assembly – where the prophetic Holy Spirit is present–so you can see the appliction of what sain paul talks about i 1 cor chapters 12 and 14 ----it is similar to having an internet service–
 
Radio Replies answers just about every question anyone could think to ask. I have the original 3 volume but I find the new one volume has condensed them beautifully. One can open it any page and find it very interesting and learning. God Bless, Memaw
 
Radio Replies answers just about every question anyone could think to ask. I have the original 3 volume but I find the new one volume has condensed them beautifully. One can open it any page and find it very interesting and learning. God Bless, Memaw
That’s what I have found as well. 👍
 
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