I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[SyroMalankara]

It could certainly be said that from the Catholic perspective, protestants err and commit sins of ommission by ignoring Mary and the Saints, and especially the dead.

 

[Millie123]

Then we have to get into definitions… What does worship mean? I’ve read Catholics ‘do’ worship Mary by Catholics themselves because it simply means giving one their worth. However they then say they only give ‘adoration’ to God. But then that word has different meaning too. People say they ‘adore’ their cats.

So we know worship by ones thoughts, actions, and reverence. At least the kind that’s due to God alone.

This is a very good point. The Catholics that are describing worship in this sense are trying to differentiate the honor that they give to saints vs the honor that is given to God alone…the Church differentiates this using the terms Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Catholics who describe the worship of Saints are not wrong because they are describing the honor that is due to the Saints in heaven, using the former old English understanding of the word “worship.” Here is an article for you to read about the term worship and how Catholics understand it:

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

To further clarify the meaning of the word “worship” and to help differentiate worship in the sense of honor (worship) that is given to people vs the honor (worship) that is given to God alone I would like to draw your attention to Exodus 18:6-8.

Exodus 18:6-8:

6 And he sent word to Moses, saying: I Jethro thy kinsman come to thee, and thy wife, and thy two sons with her.

7 And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,

8 Moses told his kinsman all that the Lord had done to Pharao, and the Egyptians, in favour of Israel: and all the labour which had befallen them in the journey, and that the Lord had delivered them.

Jethro was Moses’ father-in-law…and yet it says that Mose worshipped Jethro…Does that mean that Moses committed an act of idolatry, because he worshipped Jethro, and gave him honor? Did Moses give to Jethro…Latria which is worship and honor that is due to God alone? Or did Moses give Dulia…the worship an honor that is given to human beings? Did Moses cross the line?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, it is. That is a sin of omission - those that we know about are sins of comission.

I don’t think so. Sins of omission are sins that we fail to do something which we ought to have done.

So like stepping over an injured man in the street instead of helping him up because we didn’t want to get our pants dirty.

Not doing a sin that we do that we don’t know is a sin.

 

[PRmerger]

Placing too much faith in money and living for money is worshiping money. The same veneration is given to musicians, actors, comedians, etc. Placing faith in these people and holding them in too high of regard is often worship; but not always.

Gluttony is a sin as you know. The worship of food.

I don’t disagree.

But I think everyone with a well formed conscience knows they’re worshipping something else instead of worshipping God.

No one can worship something without knowing he’s worshipping it.

As for your question; I remember a friend would steal candy bars from Wal Mart and justify it that they really wouldn’t care, and they make millions regardless. To me it was wrong, to him it wasn’t so he didn’t know it was. But objectively in God’s eyes, the thief was wrong.

That’s not an example of worshipping something without knowing you’re worshipping it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

This is a play on words - a technicality. St. Paul condemns the “love of money”, as the “root of all kinds of evil”. Can this be equated - in an allegorical way, to ‘worshipping’ money? Sure. However, this allegorical explanation should not be confused with actual worship - since no one worships the paper that money is printed on, just the value that is ascribed to it and the value that is placed. In other words - not giving God, other people, etc their rightful worth but placing that worth in an inanimate item. The statues and icons of Saints, however valuable, are certainly not given undue worth - especially not in opposition to God or other persons.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sure.

Muslims are very careful not to give Jesus too much credit as to not worship Him.

Then we have to get into definitions… What does worship mean? I’ve read Catholics ‘do’ worship Mary by Catholics themselves because it simply means giving one their worth. However they then say they only give ‘adoration’ to God. But then that word has different meaning too. People say they ‘adore’ their cats.

So we know worship by ones thoughts, actions, and reverence. At least the kind that’s due to God alone.

I am not sure how many Protestants out there who really do not know what is worship and what is not; how many of them mistake adoring things or persons they like as the same as worshipping God. AFAIK Catholics do not have any problem with this - they know exactly what they are doing, they know that respecting, honoring and loving another person is not the same as worshipping God.

Semantic aside, why? Because God is the Creator. We worship Him because He is the One who gives life and judges us at the end of days whether we will be damned or live eternally. We love Him because He loves us first. Humans, saints and statues do not have these attributes and therefore honoring them for what they are can never be the same what we give to God in worship.

Now if some Catholics who go overboard in treating humans, saints and statues as worship as how they worship God, then of course they sin. Probably it is the same as some Protestants (and Catholics too) who worship money as their God.

 

[Per_Crucem]

It could certainly be said that from the Catholic perspective, protestants err and commit sins of ommission by ignoring Mary and the Saints, and especially the dead.

Ditto. If it is part of the substance of the faith once delivered to the saints, it would be heterodox at best.

 

[SteveVH]

Sure.

Really? One can worship Christ without intending to worship him? This is truly an absurd notion. Please demonstrate how this would work, exactly. I am trying to imagine Jesus saying to this person: “I know you didn’t intend to, but you accidentally worshipped me and now you are in heaven”.

Muslims are very careful not to give Jesus too much credit as to not worship Him.

Exactly, because they have no intention of worshipping him. Nor do we have any intention of worshipping anyone but God alone. We are aware of our intentions and this is all that matters. God reads our hearts, he does not penalize us nor reward us for something of which we are not aware.

Then we have to get into definitions… What does worship mean? I’ve read Catholics ‘do’ worship Mary by Catholics themselves because it simply means giving one their worth. However they then say they only give ‘adoration’ to God. But then that word has different meaning too. People say they ‘adore’ their cats.

Yeah, and I love pizza. So what?

So we know worship by ones thoughts, actions, and reverence. At least the kind that’s due to God alone.

And unless you can read one’s thoughts and peer into their interior life, you have no idea what one is doing. If you get on your knees to propose marriage, looking adoringly into her eyes, are you worshipping her as you would worship God? The physical posture is the same; the reverence appears to be the same. No. It is the intention behind the action that matters.

 

[SteveVH]

Now if some Catholics who go overboard in treating humans, saints and statues as worship as how they worship God, then of course they sin. Probably it is the same as some Protestants (and Catholics too) who worship money as their God.

Or their Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Or their Bible.

 

[Reuben_J]

Or their Bible.

It is too to close to home but since it is pointed out, exactly, and maybe Protestants who find it’s difficult to see the difference, perhaps ponder on this. Do you worship the Bible? Maybe it is not too difficult after all when the example is something you are doing as well.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Really? One can worship Christ without intending to worship him? This is truly an absurd notion. Please demonstrate how this would work, exactly. I am trying to imagine Jesus saying to this person: “I know you didn’t intend to, but you accidentally worshipped me and now you are in heaven”.

You need to post a warning before you make coffee come out my nose.

 

[Mousey]

What you leave out is that Jesus does demonstrate how is Mother influences Him.

He tell her

What do you think Jesus meant and why do you think after saying this He did as His mother asked?
Did Jesus intend for His first miracle to be something else or was this what Jesus intended to demonstrate the importance and influence His mother has?
As Mary has always done, her emphasis is on her Son with the last words we hear from her.

This is another example of extravagant beliefs being pulled from another very short scene with Mary.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine. "

4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. "

5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you. "

Really not that compelling.

A classic ad hominem. You do not answer a very difficult question it seems.
We have Jesus telling Mary it isn’t any of their business and it wasn’t time to reveal Himself BUT He does it anyway. And you declare it is not that compelling I think that was a very dishonest reply. I have contemplated why would God have this scenario. Why would Jesus first miracle be at His mother’s request? Why would Jesus protest? Jesus knew He would do it. So why? I believe to show just how much His mother was important. You made statement about what you thought Jesus could have said and ignore what He did.

 

[schaeffer]

We pray to the saints for their intercession. Just like you ask your church brethren to pray for you.

Well, maybe not QUITE the same. It’s uncommon for people to give flowers to people whom they ask to pray for them. Or leave a lit candle on their doorstep or in front of a photo of them. But that’s probably just a cultural thing.

 

[schaeffer]

Is it possible for someone to unintentionally worship Christ?

I am also curious about this, because I have heard people (of various Christian traditions) say that some people worship demons unaware that that is what they are doing. Others have said that some people of other faiths are actually worshiping the same God (which of course would include Christ and the Holy Spirit) as Christians, unaware that that is who they are truly worshiping.

Is there an official Church teaching on this or are these ideas and understandings of the faithful. I’ve always wondered.

I don’t understand how someone could worship something and not be aware of it.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Absurd. One is called to be devoted ‘religiously’ to one’s spouse, children and parents. There is no separate facet of ‘personal life’ and ‘religious life’ for those in Christ, our lives are infused with our lived faith.You stated earlier that any form of doulios is pagan and idolatrous, however, Paul states that one must be doulios to one another.

No, I didn’t. What I did say is that doulos in the context of offering to men and angels what is due to God (faith, trust, spiritual devotion) is pagan and idolatrous. Imagine if a Hebrew in Moses’ camp erected a statue of his deceased uncle and prayed to him with it and lit candles. He could protest that he was only offering doulia, but he still would’ve been stoned for idolatry.

This contradicts your earlier claim. Statutes are an aid to prayer - the ‘bond-service’ rendered by the person who is remembered and the ‘bond-service’ we render are all the essence of what it means to be in the Body of Christ, the borders of the Church don’t cut off at death.

No, it doesn’t cut off at death. However, in the same way that I wouldn’t erect a statue of my wife and offer it spiritual devotion after she is deceased, I wouldn’t do that to her now.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, maybe not QUITE the same. It’s uncommon for people to give flowers to people whom they ask to pray for them. Or leave a lit candle on their doorstep or in front of a photo of them. But that’s probably just a cultural thing.

Really? I just did a cursory search on google, and look what I found:



http://www.om.org/images/stories/cards/thankyou9a.jpg

And please don’t go with, “Well, a thank you card isn’t quite the same as giving flowers to someone to thank them.”

 

[wmscott]

It is too to close to home but since it is pointed out, exactly, and maybe Protestants who find it’s difficult to see the difference, perhaps ponder on this. Do you worship the Bible? Maybe it is not too difficult after all when the example is something you are doing as well.

I am going to say this and it is just my perception and opinion based on my experience. Back in my Southern Baptist days in the Deep South many, many years ago, if you were any kind a good SB, you had a bible glued to your hip. It was like your ID card saying look at me I’m a good Christian because I have my bible with me. However I get it, they are so into and love the Word of God (As are Catholics) that this is the only way for many of them to have some “tangible” means to reach out and connect with God.

That said, with all this misperceptions by a lot of Protestants that accuse Catholics of worshiping statues, Saints, and the Blessed Mother, is like pointing a finger at Catholics and admonishing them for the tangible means in which we connect with God. There is one finger pointed one way but three more pointing back.

They are blending the way a Catholic focuses on the love of God, and confuse it with idolatry, because a Catholic uses the Crucifix, or a statue of Mary, or picture of a particular Saint, or whatever else bothers some Protestants. There is nothing different from those Protestants when they are clutching and waving their Bible (a book) around or kneeling in prayer with their Bible during their services or at home while focusing on God, as when Catholics worship God and God alone while using the image of the Blessed Mother to focus on Jesus, while venerating the Cross because of Christ’s sacrifice and focusing on our salvation, or kneeling to God with a particular Saint before them helping the prayerful to focus on God and worship Him alone.

 

[SyroMalankara]

No, I didn’t. What I did say is that doulos in the context of offering to men and angels what is due to God (faith, trust, spiritual devotion) is pagan and idolatrous. Imagine if a Hebrew in Moses’ camp erected a statue of his deceased uncle and prayed to him with it and lit candles. He could protest that he was only offering doulia, but he still would’ve been stoned for idolatry.

you seem to be unaware of the historical Jewish practice of venerating deceased relatives:

Raymond Brown notes:
“There was in this period an increasing Jewish veneration of the tombs of the martyrs and prophets.”

William Lane Craig adds:
“During Jesus’s time there was an extraordinary interest in the graves of Jewish martyrs and holy men and these were scrupulously cared for and honored.”

Nicholas de Lange agrees:
Of the many Jewish shrines of the Middle East, some of which are undoubtedly of very great antiquity, the most famous were traditionally the supposed tombs of the prophet Ezekiel at el-Kifl and of Ezra the Scribe at Kurna, both in Babylonia (modern Iraq).

Matthew 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

No, it doesn’t cut off at death. However, in the same way that I wouldn’t erect a statue of my wife and offer it spiritual devotion after she is deceased, I wouldn’t do that to her now.

I don’t know about you but in Catholicism and Orthodoxy marriage is a sacrament, a holy convenant that requires both spouses venerating the other. Our salvation is even tied together, family is the domestic Church where, thru baptism, I am prophet, priest and king of my household. What does a prophet and priest offer to God from the household and from God to our household but spiritual devotion? A king without these other two, is a tyrant

 

[schaeffer]

Really? I just did a cursory search on google, and look what I found:

Ah, so it is a cultural thing. Thanks for the info!