I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

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With all due respect, that’s just an opinion. In the five years I’ve been at the parish where I am employed, I’ve never seen anyone kiss anything but a crucifix during the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday.

I’m hoping that net year for Lent, everyone will give up the whole Mary and Statues argument.
It’s fairly tiresome. Catholics get it, others don’t.
Restating everything every single week seems pointless.
People choose sides. that’s about it. 🤷
Claire, I understand what you are saying but there are all the crazy new people like me who come here to try to understand. I don’t like to ask a question that gets people all up into arms but by asking it in the forum I get the chance for hearing it from a variety of people. It gives me a chance to process it and someone usually will come up with a way of saying it so that I have an “aha!” moment. 🤷
 
Jesus said:

Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

ESV

Often, particularly with veneration of saints, kneeling before statues, relics, etc., I believe non-Catholics are judging by the appearance of things. May the Lord bless all those who seek to look more deeply into the matter.
 
Part of the Good Friday Liturgy (not a Mass, btw) is to go up to a Crucifix and kiss the feet of Our Lord represented there. It don’t while the choir sings (generally) the Reproaches (Psalm 135).
I’ve participated in a Catholic veneration of the cross - and indeed, from what I could see and felt is was if we were spritually back at Calvary with the opportunity to show gratitude to our Lord for His sacrifice and steadfast love.
 
Claire, I understand what you are saying but there are all the crazy new people like me who come here to try to understand. I don’t like to ask a question that gets people all up into arms but by asking it in the forum I get the chance for hearing it from a variety of people. It gives me a chance to process it and someone usually will come up with a way of saying it so that I have an “aha!” moment. 🤷
it’s all good. No worries. 😉
Clare
 
Jamal, thanks! I have a lot of homework ahead of me!

:coffeeread:

Look what I started in here… :bigyikes:
Good thread, Rita. Thanks for the question. It is totally understandable why you asked. Hopefully some of the responses help you in getting a somewhat clearer picture of Catholics’ disposition towards relics and sacramental objects.

There are non-Catholics who understand Catholics practice in venerating relics and statues but nevertheless feel that ‘it is a fine line’. Frankly, as been stated here, it is not. Perhaps, I think the best way to define this is, one cannot know what is in the heart of a person. Worship does not always been defined by the outward physical postures or gestures but more from the heart. If my heart says it is not worship meant for God, then it is not. In the Bible, people bowed and knelt, but it might not necessarily worship.

Decorating statues or even burying them do not contradict veneration. If one considers the object has high sentimental or spiritual value, one would put it in a special place or dispose of it in a way that it may not be abused by whoever finds it. None of these actions constitute idolatry since no worship is intended. They are just practical ways of doing things.

God bless.
 
There are non-Catholics who understand Catholics practice in venerating relics and statues but nevertheless feel that ‘it is a fine line’. Frankly, as been stated here, it is not. Perhaps, I think the best way to define this is, one cannot know what is in the heart of a person. Worship does not always been defined by the outward physical postures or gestures but more from the heart. If my heart says it is not worship meant for God, then it is not. In the Bible, people bowed and knelt, but it might not necessarily worship.
Yes I understand it. I do not believe the statues are worshiped as a God. It is not that same as in ancient Sumeria where that statue was believed to be the God. However, I do stand by my statement of a very fine line.
Decorating statues or even burying them do not contradict veneration. If one considers the object has high sentimental or spiritual value, one would put it in a special place or dispose of it in a way that it may not be abused by whoever finds it. None of these actions constitute idolatry since no worship is intended. They are just practical ways of doing things.
God bless.
Burying a statue of Joseph in hope that you can sell your house is not the least bit superstitious?
 
Yes I understand it. I do not believe the statues are worshiped as a God. It is not that same as in ancient Sumeria where that statue was believed to be the God. However, I do stand by my statement of a very fine line.

Burying a statue of Joseph in hope that you can sell your house is not the least bit superstitious?
Yes it is. And I suspect many of the people suggesting it are non-Catholic realtors and many doing it are also non-Catholics. Personally, I find it as disrespectful as flying a flag upside down or that is full of holes.

Btw, most of us feel that putting a statue or crucifix in a place of honor is similar to putting a flag in a place of honor.
 
Yes it is. And I suspect many of the people suggesting it are non-Catholic realtors and many doing it are also non-Catholics. Personally, I find it as disrespectful as flying a flag upside down or that is full of holes.

Btw, most of us feel that putting a statue or crucifix in a place of honor is similar to putting a flag in a place of honor.
It was a Catholic friend that is the brother of a priest that suggested it.

I have a crucifixion in every room of my house. I agree with the last part.
 
Yes it is. And I suspect many of the people suggesting it are non-Catholic realtors and many doing it are also non-Catholics. Personally, I find it as disrespectful as flying a flag upside down or that is full of holes.

Btw, most of us feel that putting a statue or crucifix in a place of honor is similar to putting a flag in a place of honor.
I know many protestants who do or have done this. It kind of goes along with “witching wells” (using a forked tree branch to find water) and is more like an old wives tale.
 
It was a Catholic friend that is the brother of a priest that suggested it.
I don’t doubt you that he is a bona fide Catholic. Being a brother to a Catholic priest perhaps gives more support to him being a Catholic. We meet all kinds of people and and as it is, even being a clergy or his relative will not stop him being part of that ‘all kinds’. A safer answer about Catholics regarding relics and sacramental objects would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church by someone perhaps who can explain it correctly.
 
Serious question:

How does one know if they are venerating or worshiping something/someone?

At what point do your expressions of love take a leap from veneration to adoration?
I’m not saying relics/people are worshiped by Catholics ‘as God’ but what I’m asking is what action would make said relic/person “worshiped” by definition of the word? And what different actions would make said action be considered “veneration”?
This is an excellent question. In the tradition of Socrates before we can have a discussion we must first define our terms. There is no point in having a discussion if we aren’t talking about the same thing.

Many a Protestant accuses Catholics of worshiping various objects or men. But has the Protestant who so accuses defined worship before doing this? Is worshiping simply showing reverence? If so Protestants do that to things other than God. Is worship singing songs of praise? If so Protestants do that to things other than God. Is worship showing physical signs of respect such as knelling or standing? Protestants might do that when they ask a woman to marry or when a judge comes into his court.

In my experience Protestants who accuse Catholics of improper worship have not first defined what worship is. I would ask any who does what exactly worship is. I think most who so accuse would struggle to define what it is they are accusing others of being wrong about. Again in my experience these charges are worthless because worship has not been defined. Therefore they are no more than statements that the accuser is uncomfortable with the action.
 
I don’t doubt you that he is a bona fide Catholic. Being a brother to a Catholic priest perhaps gives more support to him being a Catholic. We meet all kinds of people and and as it is, even being a clergy or his relative will not stop him being part of that ‘all kinds’. A safer answer about Catholics regarding relics and sacramental objects would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church by someone perhaps who can explain it correctly.
Thanks Reuben. We are all prone to a superstitious act now and then. 🙂

I know the Catechism pretty well. I taught RCIA for a couple of years!

Have a great day friend.
 
Thanks Reuben. We are all prone to a superstitious act now and then. 🙂

I know the Catechism pretty well. I taught RCIA for a couple of years!

Have a great day friend.
We may be superstitious, maybe it happened at one time or other in our lives, but we should not. It is not allowed.

I am pleasantly surprised that you are familiar with the CCC and even had taught RCIA. Forgive me for not knowing this fact about you which caused me to came with my statement about the CCC.

You too, have a blessed day. 🙂

God bless.
 
I was just wondering if one wants to sell their house, would it be a bad idea to buy it on Friday the 13th? 😃

P.S.

Seriously though, If one really is asking for St. Joseph’s intercession in regard to selling their house, that is a different matter.
 
Yes I understand it. I do not believe the statues are worshiped as a God. It is not that same as in ancient Sumeria where that statue was believed to be the God. However, I do stand by my statement of a very fine line.
I must disagree with the fine line here, either you believe that God is in the Statue or you do not believe that God is in that statue, or Image, or tree, or whatever word/item you wish to use:
Idolitry (Sumeria where that statue was believed to be the God… or many other religions thru history) is so vastly different than what Catholics do in veneration. In no way, shape, form, or intent do Catholics believe that any Saint inhabits that object nor do we give any saint, even the Holy Mother, the same love and adoration as we do God. These holy images and Items are there to help us to focus on God and how God wants us to conduct our lives.

Perhaps the words of Saint John Damascene - Doctor of Christian Art
(The bold is by my hand, not in the original text)
It is disastrous to suppose that the Church does not know God as He is, that she degenerates into idolatry, for if she declines from perfection in a single iota, it is as an enduring mark on a comely face, destroying by its unsightliness the beauty of the whole. A small thing is not small when it leads to something great, nor indeed is it a thing of no matter to give up the ancient tradition of the Church held by our forefathers, whose conduct we should observe and whose faith we should imitate.
(…)
we have passed the stage of infancy and reached the perfection of manhood. We receive our habit of mind from God and know what may be imaged and what may not. Especially since the invisible God took on flesh, we may make images of Christ who was visible and picture him in all his activities, His birth, baptism, transfiguration, His suffering and resurrection.
(…)
We proclaim Him [GOD] also by our senses on all sides and we sanctify the noblest sense, which is that of sight. **The image is a memorial, just what words are to the listening ear. **What a book is to those who can read, that an image is to those who cannot read. The image speaks to the sight as words to the ear; it brings us understanding. Hence, God ordered the Ark to be made of imperishable wood, and to be gilded outside and in, and the tablets to be put into it, and the staff and the golden urn containing the manna, for a remembrance of the past and a type of the future. Who can say these were not images and far sounding heralds?
(…)
You see that the law and everything it ordained and all our own worship consist in the consecration of what is made by hands, leading us through matter to the invisible God.

Once again, Saint John Damascene use the word “image” to apply to any art in an form, and by inference, to the holy relics, one should not get caught up in semantics.
Burying a statue of Joseph in hope that you can sell your house is not the least bit superstitious?
Depends on the intent of the person who used the statue:
  • If one is simply asking for St. Joseph to pray to the Lord our God to help us with the sale of the property per God’s will then, no, it is not superstitious. In this case it is no different than any other prayer or even the earthly act of asking a Realtor to market your home and your friends to spread the word to anyone interested in purchasing the property.
  • On the other hand, if you are doing this with the expectation of some magical influence, then yes, it would fall under the definition of superstition… the same way as carrying a “Lucky Rabbit’s Foot,” lucky dollar, lucky pair of socks, etc…
(edited… silly spell check… and I missed a point in logic… think I would learn to how to proof read 😃 )
 
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