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dronald
Guest
I agree. Both are wrong.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Wow, you’ve just condemned the intent of 114.4 million viewers and 20X that many affiliated in some way, especially fellow Christians, as excess to the point of idolatry. Do you think this a tad bit presumptuous and even a little (excess) judgemental?
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jlhargus
Guest
I find that hard to believe. So you have never asked anyone to pray for you because you only pray directly to God? Do you also tell those who ask for your prayers to pray directly to God themselves?Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
Christ bridged the gap for us. If you feel asking Mary’s intercession will help you then that is ok with me. I will not damn you to hell.
I have just always gone directly to God with prayer through Jesus’ name.
Scripture clearly shows all prayers Do Not go directly to God. Scripture also clearly show prayers of saints on earth going through saints and angels in heaven.
[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 … 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and **the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.]
[Rv 8:3 And **another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand.]
Again scripture tells us saints in heaven rejoice in the presents of the angles when a sinner repents.
[Lk15:7 I say unto you, that likewise **joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 … 9 … 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.] The saints in heaven, in the presence of angels rejoice every time a sinner repents.
[Mt18:10 **Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. ]
Jesus says their angels behold the face of his Father. The angels stand in the presence of God. They have continual access to the Father. The angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God, otherwise what’s the point?
[HB 12:1 Wherefore seeing, **we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]
If they see surely they will pray for us, wouldn’t you? Knowing this we can lay aside every weight as we have many in heaven praying for us. The Church is universal in time on earth and eternity. That one body of Christ, that vine, is united in the Holy Spirit and is one with Christ, in heaven, who is the Head of the body the Church.
[Eph3:1414 **For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.]
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dronald
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I didn’t condemn them. I just don’t believe that having big parades over a statue is a good idea in either situation.
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PRmerger
Guest
Oh, brother.
That’s a fanatical legalism Christ never intended.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this:
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/sl..._in_/150067554.jpg.CROP.article250-medium.jpg
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PRmerger
Guest
This is going to go the way of every single discussion on praying to saints has ever gone in the history of apologetics…
It will be admitted that, yes, they do ask others to pray for them. Nothing wrong with that.
…And that will always segue to: but the dead folks in heaven can’t hear your prayers.
Every time.
They always get that there’s nothing wrong with using mediators, once it’s pointed out to them that they, well, use mediators.
But then the objection becomes the “dead people can’t hear you objection.”
I like to ask for the verse that states that doctrine they’re espousing.
And another objection is that this will make them omniscient. The saints aren’t in the same room with us, so how can they know our prayer intentions? But they forget that they are responding to prayer intentions on this very forum with folks who aren’t in the next room…without it making them omniscient. So why couldn’t the saints in heaven be able to know our intention without making them omniscient?
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jlhargus
Guest
How about, in the wilderness, parading a gold box with images of angels on top of it?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Your stated they were acting excessively. To the point of it being idolatry. That seems to be a condemnation of sorts.
Oh - how about a flag:
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Speaking of images - in your opinion - does the ‘Magen David’ imprinted on the Israeli flag violate the prohibition against representing images and likeness, in your opinion?
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z_0101
Guest
Revelation 8
3And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. 5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it on the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings, and a great earthquake
Would that when the prayers of the Saints are brought to the alter of our Lord, that their prayers include mine.
3And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. 5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it on the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings, and a great earthquake
Would that when the prayers of the Saints are brought to the alter of our Lord, that their prayers include mine.
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dronald
Guest
Being overly excessive is far different than a simple kiss. That’s your issue is that you’re confusing something simple with something over the top.
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dronald
Guest
Render unto Caesar and whatnot.
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dronald
Guest
I think this went from me mentioning that Jesus placed way less emphasis on Mary as Catholics do now; to being about statues.
Here, check this out:
Link
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MartinJordan
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Mousey
Guest
What you leave out is that Jesus does demonstrate how is Mother influences Him.
He tell her
What do you think Jesus meant and why do you think after saying this He did as His mother asked?
Did Jesus intend for His first miracle to be something else or was this what Jesus intended to demonstrate the importance and influence His mother has?
As Mary has always done, her emphasis is on her Son with the last words we hear from her.
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dronald
Guest
This is another example of extravagant beliefs being pulled from another very short scene with Mary.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine. "
4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. "
5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you. "
Really not that compelling.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Correct.
He was honoring his mother like the commandment states. That shows the human side of Jesus. That is a wonderful example of where we see the fully human and fully God at work. If he was disobedient he would have sin. We all know that he was sinless so he complied.
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Denise1957
Guest
In and of itself, it may not seem compelling. But taken along with what is written elsewhere in scripture, as well as tradition, we have a better picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary. For instance, it isn’t written in scripture as to how the Blessed Virgin Mary spent her last days. Well, according to tradition, she spent her last days being cared for by St. John, and after her death (I think it was in Ephesus) her body disappeared and lillies were suddenly found growing outside of her little home. How could her body have disappeared unless she was assumed into Heaven? The early Christians venerated her. They didn’t base their views of the BVM based only on scripture.
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spedteacherita
Guest
Is this verse speaking to actual saints in heaven or are the prayers a compilation of all those on earth? Just clarifying…
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spedteacherita
Guest
Hi, Denise,
I ask this in all sincerity and not in any way meant to be negative or disrespectful. My question is, when it comes to “tradition” how do you know that “man” did not get in the way with what has been taught? How do you know that someone hasn’t put their idea about Mary in somewhere in the growth and understanding of Tradition over the years? So much infallibility involved with man.
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Per_Crucem
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It’s both. Certainly it includes the prayers of those on earth, but it doesn’t exclude those in heaven. The verse is clarified in other places of Revelation where the martyrs who have given their lives for Christ enter the throne room and pray for justice (for example).
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