I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[Rohzek]

Okay, so there is another person who posted this and I stole the link to post in here.

I’m suspecting this has to veneration of saints but this, seriously, is something that I can’t make sense of. My protestant self wants to immediately go to “idol worship” but I’m sure my Catholic friends can maybe help me make sense of this?

To help you along - I totally understand where you come from with praying to saints and Mary - not there with you yet, though. But the adoration of relics is something I haven’t come across in here in any of the posts that I’ve read, anyways.

Okay, let me post the link I’ll let you all “discuss” this…

see catholicsentinel.org/main…rticleID=28489

People have already given you some basic answers. However, if you are more interested in the issue and are willing to put in some good amount of reading, I suggest the following book: Images, Iconoclasm, and the Carolingians by Thomas Noble. It’s in paperback, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to get a hold of. The book gives an extensive summary of Iconoclasm in the East, but its main focus is the controversy over icons and relics in the Latin West during the same time period.

While the book’s main focus is icons and the controversy surrounding them during the eighth and ninth centuries, it also discusses relics at some length too. Contrary to popular thought, there was an image controversy in the Latin West too during this period, and it also encompassed the veneration of relics. The author does a good job presenting everyone’s arguments and counter-arguments from all sides of the issue. I think it is worth reading, as you will see that a lot of the same arguments from 1200 years ago still rage on to this day.

 

[Stilldreamn]

In 2013 I traveled in Germany and had the opportunity to visit the Cologne Cathedral, and the Shrine of the Three Kings. I went in with an open mind and a willing attitude.

I spent some time praying near the shrine and was much surprised that my mind didn’t wander into speculating about the magi themselves, but was focused entirely on Christ - His miraculous birth, the obedience of the magi in seeking Him out, and their adoration of the Infant King. The absolute reality of the Nativity had never been clearer for me.

This was what I received by attending the relics - I was drawn closer to my Saviour.

 

[spedteacherita]

Exactly. Why would anyone believe that we worship “things”?

I think from an outsider’s perspective it gets confusing when you see people kneeling and praying in front of one of the apparitions.

I also believe that there is a difference on semantics. Catholics don’t use the word pray to mean worship whereas Protestants equate prayer with worship.

Blessings!

Rita

 

[sallybutler]

It’s easier to relate to if you’re a sports fan or film buff & have been, say, to a Hall of Fame or film studio where they display historic items. These might inspire a feeling of natural awe akin to the veneration for a relic, but of a lesser kind. In many of the Church’s practices we find these kinds of similarities between the natural and the transcendent order. And in most cases, the puzzling practice becomes clearer when we think of it under the aspect.of the Incarnation - because the saint was so near Christ, his physical effects retain Jesus’ glory in miniature.

I was going to use the 9/11 memorial or The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Even wedding dresses passed down generation to generation, or wedding rings.

These are all things that remind us of previous events and lives. Relics remind us of, not necessarily of events, but of people who were able to live a life closer to Jesus and perhaps encourage us to do the same.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I was going to use the 9/11 memorial or The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Even wedding dresses passed down generation to generation, or wedding rings.

These are all things that remind us of previous events and lives. Relics remind us of, not necessarily of events, but of people who were able to live a life closer to Jesus and perhaps encourage us to do the same.

You do not see Protestants cutting up a suit jacket of Billy Graham and selling them in a bookstore or gift shop. He has done amazing things for the Christian faith, yet he is a sinner just like you and I.

 

[Stilldreamn]

You do not see Protestants cutting up a suit jacket of Billy Graham and selling them in a bookstore or gift shop. He has done amazing things for the Christian faith, yet he is a sinner just like you and I.

Maybe someday they will - as you say, Rev Graham is still here in the flesh and only God knows his status as a saint. But people pay extravagant sums for items owned by famous people - autographed baseballs and the like. Owning a sports “relic” doesn’t make them a better ball player, but may be an inspiration nonetheless.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Maybe someday they will - as you say, Rev Graham is still here in the flesh and only God knows his status as a saint. But people pay extravagant sums for items owned by famous people - autographed baseballs and the like. Owning a sports “relic” doesn’t make them a better ball player, but may be an inspiration nonetheless.

Very true. My father has a pen of Rev. Graham. He does not venerate the pen. It is a nice conversation piece. Sure it reminds him of when he attended a Crusade, but that is where it stops. He even has a piece of the green carpet of the Jungle room at Graceland when I took him.

I just see it as a very fine line to walk is all.

 

[SteveVH]

I think from an outsider’s perspective it gets confusing when you see people kneeling and praying in front of one of the apparitions.

I also believe that there is a difference on semantics. Catholics don’t use the word pray to mean worship whereas Protestants equate prayer with worship.

Blessings!

Rita

You make a good point, Rita. One correction, relics are not apparitions. But yes, when most people see someone kneeling before a statue or a relic with head bent, in many peoples eyes that would be seen as “worship” or “adoration”. Nevertheless, in spite of the appearance, it is neither. It would be quite proper to kneel before the relic of a saint and ask for that saint’s intercession before God on one’s behalf. Anyway, my point is that your perceptions are very understandable. I think many Catholics do not understand what is really behind the practice either. That doesn’t make it a bad or idolatrous practice, it just means, as with many other things about our faith, proper catechesis is very important. We don’t want anyone to worship or adore anything but God.

God bless.

Steve

 

[MarcoPolo]

Okay, maybe I’m being too particular but this is talking about images…I guess what I’m trying to understand is a vial containing blood of a person.

Admittedly, I have not read the information provided for in the links. I will do that in the morning…I just popped on here before I went to bed.

Thanks for sharing!

Rita

You mean relics. Others have provided some answers. The sentiment is the same, where we recognize the grace of God at work here manifested in the world. Here are my 2 cents on relics from a blog post on images and icons a while back:*RELICS
Worthy of mention in all this are the biblical examples of relics, which themselves are created objects belonging to various saints. For example:

And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet. (2 King 13:21)

Acts 19:12 So that even there were brought from his (Paul’s) body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.
Although relics differ from icons in that they are possessions of or physical parts of a saint, these resemble icons in that a material object involved in the exercise of religion certainly is not blanketly forbidden.​

*

 

[wmscott]

Very true. My father has a pen of Rev. Graham. He does not venerate the pen. It is a nice conversation piece. Sure it reminds him of when he attended a Crusade, but that is where it stops. He even has a piece of the green carpet of the Jungle room at Graceland when I took him.

I just see it as a very fine line to walk is all.

It is not so fine a line as you may think. Catholics who know their faith and what the church teaches are no more worshiping a statue of (insert whatever icon here) than a Protestant kneeling at his bedside with the bible in front of him while praying.

Now are there “Catholics” who are misguided and apply superstition and incorrect importance to an icon, I would say there are some who do. But as any Catholic will tell you they are wrong and agree with you that what they are doing is wrong. There are imperfect Christians in all faiths. It’s up to us to correct and educate them in what is righteous and moral.

 

[aidanbradypop]

It is not so fine a line as you may think. Catholics who know their faith and what the church teaches are no more worshiping a statue of (insert whatever icon here) than a Protestant kneeling at his bedside with the bible in front of him while praying.

Now are there “Catholics” who are misguided and apply superstition and incorrect importance to an icon, I would say there are some who do. But as any Catholic will tell you they are wrong and agree with you that what they are doing is wrong. There are imperfect Christians in all faiths. It’s up to us to correct and educate them in what is righteous and moral.

I am not praying with my bible sitting in front of me, but I understand what you are saying.

I still believe there is very fine line. I mentioned the suit jacket of Rev Graham earlier. Someone mentioned sports memorabilia as well. There comes a point in time that one will start to idolize the individual. We see it in our culture today with stars in Hollywood.

A great example would be burying a statue of Joseph when trying to sell your house. A friend actually suggested that to me. He is the brother of a priest.

Very fine line

 

[Tonaw]

This is the Link. I had to find what was in the middle and post the last numbers of the link they posted.

catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=4&SubSectionID=44&ArticleID=28489

Is it because it’s on a stretcher? lol, I think that’s more so people see it as it processes and to prevent it from getting damaged. Related to the reason we have reliquaries.

I expected to see something crazy from that video like straight up prostrating themselves and claiming the relic as God or something. lol. Video seems pretty normal to me. We appreciate artifacts, our traditions and history. We honor the saints and regard their remains with respect. May all things lead us to a more intimate communion with God.

 

[Techno2000]

Okay, so there is another person who posted this and I stole the link to post in here.

I’m suspecting this has to veneration of saints but this, seriously, is something that I can’t make sense of. My protestant self wants to immediately go to “idol worship” but I’m sure my Catholic friends can maybe help me make sense of this?

To help you along - I totally understand where you come from with praying to saints and Mary - not there with you yet, though. But the adoration of relics is something I haven’t come across in here in any of the posts that I’ve read, anyways.

Okay, let me post the link I’ll let you all “discuss” this…

Demons Know what relics are, just read some exorcism stories.
fatherjoe.wordpress.com/stories/an-exorcism-story/

 

[dronald]

Serious question:

How does one know if they are venerating or worshiping something/someone?

At what point do your expressions of love take a leap from veneration to adoration?

 

[SteveVH]

Serious question:

How does one know if they are venerating or worshiping something/someone?

At what point do your expressions of love take a leap from veneration to adoration?

The same way you do. We know that there is one God who is to be worshipped and adored and no one or nothing else. Pretty simple, really. How do you separate your love for your country from your love from God when you stand, place your hand over your heart and recite the pledge of allegiance? Have you ever been confused about this? Neither have we.

Peace.

Steve

 

[dronald]

The same way you do. We know that there is one God who is to be worshipped and adored and no one or nothing else. Pretty simple, really. How do you separate your love for your country from your love from God when you stand, place your hand over your heart and recite the pledge of allegiance? Have you ever been confused about this? Neither have we.

Peace.

Steve

Well worship isn’t really a thought, or just a word. Just because you say “I only worship God” doesn’t qualify one as only worshiping God. We also worship through our actions.

I’m not saying relics/people are worshiped by Catholics ‘as God’ but what I’m asking is what action would make said relic/person “worshiped” by definition of the word? And what different actions would make said action be considered “veneration”?

 

[spedteacherita]

I appreciate the respectful responses that you provided for me. Now I’ll take them and read and study them .

For me, this is the hardest part of overcoming my perceptions and understand the information I received.

Thanks again, Friends!

Rita

 

[schaeffer]

I think some of us are more susceptible or vulnerable towards falling into superstition, and what draws another person closer to Christ becomes a stumbling block to another.

Those who have struggled with a particular issue maybe are more apt to fear the same is occuring for others. I know I have a tendency to do that, be rather hyper vigilant about things that have caused me trouble in the past. There are some behaviors I have had to stop entirely because I couldn’t do them in moderation or appropriately. And it’s hard to understand how other people can.

I have been told by Catholics that the Mass is their act of Worship, and therefore, since the Mass is only about God, and it is never offered to anyone or thing, then all other behaviors by definition are not worship. They are veneration, honor etc, but the Mass is THE act of Worship and it never has been and never will be offered to anyone but God himself.

someone else here mentioned that sometimes it’s a case of using different meanings of words. Catholics say they pray to saints, and use the term as in “pray, will you help me with this and pray for me to God” while other faiths have a different definition of pray.

I think worship is the same. If one has a different understanding of what constitutes worship it gets confusing. What is considered worshipful posture or behavior in one faith may not be so in another.

In some faiths, bowing/kneeling/lowering of heads is worshipful posture, in others standing and raising faces and putting hand in the air is worshipful posture.

Were I to participate in venerating relics I think I would have a hard time not falling into superstition. But that’s me.

 

[SteveVH]

Well worship isn’t really a thought, or just a word. Just because you say “I only worship God” doesn’t qualify one as only worshiping God. We also worship through our actions.

I’m not saying relics/people are worshiped by Catholics ‘as God’ but what I’m asking is what action would make said relic/person “worshiped” by definition of the word? And what different actions would make said action be considered “veneration”?

Well, I simply don’t agree with your premise. Worship comes from the heart, not from our physical posture (even though our physical posture may help our inner attitude). To demonstrate what I mean, do you believe that there is the possibility of some people who just go through the motions, doing all of the proper physical postures (on their knees, head bent, hands together) who are thinking only of where they are going to go to breakfast after the service? Are they “worshipping” God?

God sees our most inner being and knows who we “worship” and who we don’t, regardless of any outside appearance.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I appreciate the respectful responses that you provided for me. Now I’ll take them and read and study them .

For me, this is the hardest part of overcoming my perceptions and understand the information I received.

Thanks again, Friends!

Rita

Many Catholics find it hard and don’t understand it much either.

The best approach, I believe, is to start with references in scripture relating to relics and work out from there.