I can't get over the gay thing

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The APA does NOT say that homosexuality is innate. The APA says that it is not a disorder.

But the Church says that it is a disorder…

As a matter of fact, much of the recent psychological research points to possibilities that homosexuality is at least sometimes not innate – but no respectable psychological researcher I’m familiar with says that homosexuality attraction is chosen (and certainly not that it is *always *chosen).

Ask your psychological researcher if it is not chosen, where does it come from?
Remember, “The APA does NOT say that homosexuality is innate.”

Accept that one has it, sure. But not accept the activities. Some people are born predisposed to alcoholism – this does not mean they should accept that they are bound to be alcoholics!

Yes there is a genetic component to alcoholism, and people who grow up in alcoholic homes are far more likely to become alcoholics themselves. Children born to alcoholic parents, but raised in homes without alcohol abuse or addiction are also predisposed to alcoholism, so we do know that genetics plays an important role. But all people genetically predisposed to alcoholism do not develop dependencies, and some people with no genetic history of alcoholism end up battling the disease for years.

It is now accepted that although a genetic predisposition plays an important influence in the development of the disease, that social and environmental factors are in fact the lager influences towards alcohol abuse or alcoholism.

As of today…research has not discovered a “gay gene”. When that happens alcoholism and homosexuality can be properly compared.

Logical fallacy. You cannot derive “homosexuality is not innate” from “homosexuality has not been proven to be innate”, no more than ancients could derive “the earth is not round” from “the earth has not been proven to be round.”

Yes, you are right. Allow me to just stick with: “homosexuality has not been proven to be innate”.

Actually my claim is VERY often very true

. I wasn’t claiming my experience was healthy. I don’t believe my experience was healthy. But in one single respect, our experiences were the same: neither of us consciously chose to feel the attraction we felt.

So do you claim that I consciously chose to feel that attraction? Or was it unconscious? And if it was unconscious, how could you call it a “choice”?

Prod, old pal…I cannot claim to know what caused your attraction. I only know what you told me and I will take you word for it.

You were, however, born with a reproductive system that is heterosexual by nature. We are either male or female. We have sexual feelings only because of chemical and other processes that are rooted in our procreative heterosexual design. You are not supposed to be attracted to men. BUT…I don’t know what goes on in your head and I respect you too much to call you a liar. Just be advised…it ain’t right.

I agree with all of this. Indeed, the bolded portion is precisely what you seem to have repeatedly been denying.

So I’m quite confused. If you really believe this last paragraph, then you agree with me and kozlosap about the most salient points in this conversation. But then why argue with us?

You are right…I have been arguing up the wrong tree.

My problem is, as you put it, “attraction and action”.

You, kozlosap and others on the forum SEEM to focus on a perceived distinction between same gender sexual conduct (action) and inclination (attraction). I assume this is because the Church grants inclination the status of “objectively” disordered rather than “intrinsically” and therefore not a sin. With this in mind…I see a danger here.

There SEEMS to be many posts on the forum using the “inclination is not a sin” excuse as a justification for the conduct (action) or as a smoke screen to advance the acceptance of unnatural behavior.

I want to emphasize a part of my statement that you agree with…: “… **the mere existence of desire does not justify the act.” **

Also

All sexual conduct has serious public health consequences. Society has both a right and an obligation to regulate it. **Society also has the right to require people to suppress harmful desires, even if it is difficult for them to do so. **

I hope I don’t come off as argumentative here. I value your comments in many threads, and I want us to be on the same page. But sometimes the way you talk about homosexuality just doesn’t resonate with those of us who experience it.

Prod, I never considered our discussions to be arguments and I am genuinely pleased to know you value my comments.

I know, I know……I tend to be blunt and I admit that my attitude towards homosexuality doesn’t resonate with those who experience it. I’m sorry. I am passionate about subjects and lack the talent to express myself as well as you and others do. Please understand I am being honest and mean no harm or offense.

 

[Weejee]

I’ve got a trivia question for everyone, especially the OP. Answer without google.

What percentage of the US population is gay?

10 percent, I’ve read in many sources.

 

[mommy_k]

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You remind me of the teachers I used to teach with in high school, who used to say that they didn’t care what the goth and self-destructive students did on their own time, so long of these students didn’t wear clothing that represented their drug/suicide culture to school. It just seems like there is much too much focus on one’s own personal purity, and too little focus on loving other people where they are at.

Yes we should love all, and we should look beyond labels. We can love a goth person, but not love the significance of their clothes.

 

[kozlosap]

Since the “gay thing” isn’t going away, those who are afraid of gays or hate an entire group will learn to live and work side by side with those of different orientations.

 

[on_the_hill]

But the Church says that it is a disorder…

2357: “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”

Acts.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Since the “gay thing” isn’t going away, those who are afraid of gays or hate an entire group will learn to live and work side by side with those of different orientations.

I cannot speak for those who fear or hate an entire group. I can only speak as one who accepts gays with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. (It’s a Catholic thing)

But let’s talk about orientation.

An “orientation” describes the perspective of a subject toward an object. A sexual orientation therefore describes a person (subject) by the object toward which they are sexually attracted: a homosexual is someone oriented toward someone of the same sex, a bisexual toward both sexes, a pedophile toward children, a sado-masochist toward giving or receiving pain, etc.

By definition, there are an unlimited number of potential sexual orientations. I think we should be very careful to differentiate between sexual orientation and sexual conduct and keep them separate. The right to claim a sexual orientation should not automatically grant a license for sexual conduct.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim73 View Post
I’ve got a trivia question for everyone, especially the OP. Answer without google.

What percentage of the US population is gay?

10 percent, I’ve read in many sources.

Less than 3%

The National Health Interview Survey, which is the government’s premier tool for annually assessing Americans’ health and behaviors, found that 1.6 percent of adults self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7 percent consider themselves bisexual.

The overwhelming majority of adults, 96.6 percent, labeled themselves as straight in the 2013 survey. An additional 1.1 percent declined to answer, responded “I don’t know the answer” or said they were “something else.”

cdc.gov/nchs/nhis.htm

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Sorry Zoltan C. that doesn’t wash with me. You can try to intellectualize it as much as you want and it still won’t wash!

I’m sorry too WilT.

The gay community is making the claim that homosexuality is not chosen and people are born “that way”. All they have to do is prove it.

 

[jimmy]

Since the “gay thing” isn’t going away, those who are afraid of gays or hate an entire group will learn to live and work side by side with those of different orientations.

This is one of the problems with these discussions; one side of the discussion can’t help accusing the other of hating entire groups. They can’t help but resort to accusations of homophobia, racism and every other phobia or ism.

 

[jimmy]

The APA does NOT say that homosexuality is innate. The APA says that it is not a disorder. As a matter of fact, much of the recent psychological research points to possibilities that homosexuality is at least sometimes not innate – but no respectable psychological researcher I’m familiar with says that homosexuality attraction is chosen (and certainly not that it is *always *chosen).

I agree completely with this. The dichotomy of either genetic or choice is too narrow. Often things are neither.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This is one of the problems with these discussions; one side of the discussion can’t help accusing the other of hating entire groups. They can’t help but resort to accusations of homophobia, racism and every other phobia or ism.

I don’t think kozlosap accused anyone of hating gay people except those people that hate gay people. Reread kozlosap’s post carefully.

 

[Weejee]

Since the “gay thing” isn’t going away, those who are afraid of gays or hate an entire group will learn to live and work side by side with those of different orientations.

Nope, it’s not going away, and it never has been away. Even if Gay Ladies and Gentlemen are just a teensy weensy minority, we are not going away.[SIGN]We’re Here We’re Queer, Get Used To It![/SIGN]

 

[Captain_America]

OP: If you’re still listening or checking in. . .

I should point out some HIGHLY interesting facts:

(a) it’s been conclusively shown that the history of this issue has involved extremist political pressures, especially in the method used to change the psychiatric definition of homosexuality, from being scientifically understood a behavioral disorder to being viewed as a normal activity.

This delegitimizes much of the pro-gay stuff.

Of course, the history of the issue includes the notorious nonsense of ACT-UP, the mythical valorization of pedophile Harvey Milk (hey, now the liberals running the government can sell you a Harvey Milk stamp! nice.) and Matthew Shepherd. It just goes on.

(b) where would this issue be, without a sympathetic media bloc? And, of course, gay Hollywood’s promoted this for more than a generation now.

(c) where woult this issue be, without millions of dollars being pumped into it? I see the pro-sodomy people as a lot like the NRA. Tyrannical and despotic.

Take out the constant propaganda, and the whole thing collapses.

(d) reading about the pro-sodomy efforts, you learn that even gay scientists cannot find a gay gene, despite millions and years of effort. You learn that pro-sodomy leaders are essentially power nihilists: we grab the power and shove this down your throat. Hitleresque and Stalinistic in this approach.

The use of reason and analysis is set aside.

(e) you also learn that efforts to seriously study this get shut down. Instead, the sick and unscientific nonsense of Kinsey gets repeated verbatim as some kind of established science, poor little twisted guy that he was.

 

[SuperLuigi]

You are basically asking if your friend who is a practicing homosexual is going to hell.

Short of some kind of great Divine revelation, no mortal human can say that with any certainty.

 

[kozlosap]

OP: If you’re still listening or checking in. . .

I should point out some HIGHLY interesting facts:

(a) it’s been conclusively shown that the history of this issue has involved extremist political pressures, especially in the method used to change the psychiatric definition of homosexuality, from being scientifically understood a behavioral disorder to being viewed as a normal activity.

This delegitimizes much of the pro-gay stuff.

Of course, the history of the issue includes the notorious nonsense of ACT-UP, the mythical valorization of pedophile Harvey Milk (hey, now the liberals running the government can sell you a Harvey Milk stamp! nice.) and Matthew Shepherd. It just goes on.

(b) where would this issue be, without a sympathetic media bloc? And, of course, gay Hollywood’s promoted this for more than a generation now.

(c) where woult this issue be, without millions of dollars being pumped into it? I see the pro-sodomy people as a lot like the NRA. Tyrannical and despotic.

Take out the constant propaganda, and the whole thing collapses.

(d) reading about the pro-sodomy efforts, you learn that even gay scientists cannot find a gay gene, despite millions and years of effort. You learn that pro-sodomy leaders are essentially power nihilists: we grab the power and shove this down your throat. Hitleresque and Stalinistic in this approach.

The use of reason and analysis is set aside.

(e) you also learn that efforts to seriously study this get shut down. Instead, the sick and unscientific nonsense of Kinsey gets repeated verbatim as some kind of established science, poor little twisted guy that he was.

“Pro Sodomy”??? You do understand that there are many gay people who don’t participate in anal sex, such as lesbians, right? From all of my research and reading it appears that even gay men do not all have anal sex as their primary sexual acts. Sexual orientation creeps into how we interact with each other and how we view society.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Nope, it’s not going away, and it never has been away. Even if Gay Ladies and Gentlemen are just a teensy weensy minority, we are not going away.[SIGN]We’re Here We’re Queer, Get Used To It![/SIGN]

This kind of “IN-YOUR-FACE-STUFF” makes me appreciate the “good old days”. When people who chose an odd sexual behavior remained “in-the-closet”.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

“Pro Sodomy”??? You do understand that there are many gay people who don’t participate in anal sex, such as lesbians, right?
From all of my research and reading it appears that even gay men do not all have anal sex as their primary sexual acts.

MOST DO…right!

Sexual orientation creeps into how we interact with each other and how we view society.

Sexual orientation doesn’t “creep”. It defines a person. Like a pedophile or a homosexual.