I can't help it...have to ask again!

[Paris_Blues]

I’m trying to read more, etc. about the Faith, etc. to know more on my own so I wont have to keep asking but now I got a bunch of e-mails from the non-Catholics and I’ve been bombarded with a bunch of garbage! I know you guys have told me to don’t worry about it and do more research, etc. but now I can’t help but ask again (I find that if I ask, I feel a little better!) and below are the EXACT quotes that they’ve said:

“Neither is she [Mary]a help to us, she is dead and in heaven and no longer accessible to us. Hebrews tells us that Christ is our intercessor and He ALONE.”

“When Yeshua told Peter His church would be built “on this rock”, what “rock” was He referring to?* Remember the question He asked Peter first?* He asked Peter, “Who do you say I am?”* He wanted Peter (becauseYeshua knew what Peter would saybefore Peter ever answered) to truly understand the foundation of His teachings.* Peter answered, “You are the Son of G-d.”* It was then that Yeshua said, “On this rock…” (the rock being the saving knowledge and faith that Yeshua is the Son of G-d) “…I will build my church.”* The rock Yeshua was talking about was not, as many have been taught, Peter, himself, but Peter’s unwavering faith.* Perhaps you would be willing to think and pray about what I have said and see if your spirit might not testify to what I have said?”

“Nicole Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit when he left and told us that the Holy Spirit would lead us to truth, to worship, the Holy Spirit is the embodiment of Christ, they together are GOD.
So it is not accurate to say that God uses or needs man to lead his church, remember when he told the Pharisees that he could raise stones to worship him? That thing about building the church on peter is heresy and goes against God in the most foul manner possible! The church is built on Christ and when Christ said this to Peter he was referring to the faith Peter expressed in the verses before that, faith that Christ himself gave him and nothing of Peter’s. Why Peter wasn’t even the beloved apostle but perhaps the most volatile and*impulsive among the lot, if God were to choose a single member of his Apostles it would not have been Peter. Please go back and read that verse in its context and stop following CC one liners, danger lies there.”

“Do you really think you’ll go to someplace called Purgatory when you die? Please so me something to support that.There is only one thing that can cleanse us of our sins. That is the Blood of Jesus.”

"I was taken back by one comment of yours and I think that perhaps you didn’t mean it but were in a moment of high emotion. You said: You also said that "Catholics say that Protestants aren’t getting the “fullness”, [and this is what Catholics have told me so that’s why I told the people!] to which I ask you has any of these counselors ever explained what they mean by that? I find it confusing and therefore of interest. In various forms of protestants there are those of the full gospel who certainly would disagree with the thought that THEY don’t have the fullness.
But all forms of protestant worship have .
*
And for your information Catholics were NOT the first church nor the first body. You would do well to investigate the Eastern Orthodox church,**they may dare tosuggest that they were the first body, truth is they and the Catholics were one but there were those in the western parts that began to stir up the idea of the Papacy with the notion that the Pope was infallible.
*
But not even that was the beginning Nicole. What your Catholic friends are not telling you and what you are not researching for yourself in this matter of eternal consequence is that there NEVER really was a single body of Christians. From the very beginning there were factions and people with various interpretations. Have a look at this material I have collected on your behalf.

(CONT)

 

[Paris_Blues]

(cont):

So we see it is a dangerous and inaccurate concept to make a sweeping statement that the Catholics were the first church, FACT is that there were not. They have no claim to Peter, none. They did not even follow his lineage. It is just plain wrong to say that there was EVER a single church, way or assembly because from the very beginning we see people - even the Apostles - in disagreement on what was the proper view of Christ and the church of Christ.No amount of wishing it were different will change the facts of history, we can only try to cover up the facts or rewrite them and hope we fool everyone around us. From the beginning there were various factions, groups of people who believed in Christ and yet differed on the details. Constantine, after his conversion DECLARED Christianity to be THE religion of the Roman Empire (that is quite a story in itself, from killing Christians to proclaiming that Christianity was the OFFICIAL religion) of that groupor sect the RCC and Eastern Orthodox broke apart over the western portion (RCC) saying that one human was to be the head of the church (Pope) and was somehow at coronation by humans suddenly made to be infallible. So Nicole, you see, there NEVER was a single church that was RCC, sorry dear but that is a lie that some would say is from the pits of Hell itself although I would not go that far. So, no single church, no breaking off of the ONE TRUE Church, there never*was a single RCC, it just ain’t so … sorry but the truth is what it is and not what we WANT it to be. I encourage you to do your own research/homework and stop listening to those who would tell you that it all began with ONE church … history shows otherwise, YOUR BIBLE shows otherwise."

So I should’ve never said anything to them in the first place and I was stupid enough to not know the Faith well enough or I was misinformed by “fake” Catholics or whatever! But see what I mean? They make it sound like the CC is a pile of horse **** (excuse my French but I’m making a very serious point here and am to the point where I had to say that). Boy, I’ll make sure I know the Faith!

 

[turboEDvo]

Where in the world is all this coming from? I have to know, why is it that you are getting all these e-mails? Is it friends or other web members or something?

Eamon

 

[Della]

I can’t help but ask, in all love and helpfulness, why the heck you would even read such nonsense if you know it is nonsense?

No Catholic is obliged to answer every asinine objection made by people who are ignorant of what the Church truly teaches or who will simply not accept what the Church teaches no matter how many proves you could lay before them.

Don’t waste your time and energy on this. Instead, pick up a copy of the writings of one of the Saints to meditate upon. I’m sure you’ll start to see your Catholic faith come together when you read the lives of people who practiced it with heroic virtue.

Don’t waste your time on doubters and agitators. Jesus didn’t, you know. If people wouldn’t accept his word, he let them go their own way. So, you should too.

 

[mommy]

Paris Blues:

“Neither is she [Mary]a help to us, she is dead and in heaven and no longer accessible to us. Hebrews tells us that Christ is our intercessor and He ALONE.”

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8 source: catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

"When Yeshua told Peter His church would be built “on this rock”, what “rock” was He referring to?* Remember the question He asked Peter first?*

The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter “rock”: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).

Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else.
source: catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

"Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit when he left and told us that the Holy Spirit would lead us to truth, to worship, the Holy Spirit is the embodiment of Christ, they together are GOD.
So it is not accurate to say that God uses or needs man to lead his church,

There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as “Peter and those who were with him” (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48). source catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Do you really think you’ll go to someplace called Purgatory when you die?

purgatory catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

"I was taken back by one comment of yours…You said: You also said that "Catholics say that Protestants aren’t getting the “fullness”

source: catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

And for your information Catholics were NOT the first church nor the first body. You would do well to investigate the Eastern Orthodox church,…stir up the idea of the Papacy with the notion that the Pope was infallible.

The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other “Bible Christians” often confuse the charism of papal “infallibility” with “impeccability.” They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

on Eastern Orthodox catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

 

[clmowry]

You might want to consider just adding the senders to your junk mail filter protection list.

Chuck

 

[Paris_Blues]

turboEDvo:

Where in the world is all this coming from? I have to know, why is it that you are getting all these e-mails? Is it friends or other web members or something?

Eamon

From a Christian group that I joined long before I pursued Catholicism. I asked them if I should attend a CC (because that’s when I was starting to pursue Catholicism) and thought maybe some of them were Catholic (but found that out much later!) and would give me good advice but no, they told me don’t, it’s a bunch of lies, etc. so I went ahead anyway and came back and told them, there’s nothing so wrong with the CC!!!
After I said that, that’s when they started bombarding me with all these opinions, etc. I didn’t want to and had NO intention to debate them but since I am convinced the CC IS THE CHURCH, I had to because of the weird things they’ve said!!

Maybe I need to drop from the group, eh?

 

[mercygate]

Paris,

You have enough experience at this point to recognize these hackneyed anti-Catholic diatribes.

I suggest that you simply go to the CCC scborromeo.org/ccc.htm and link your challengers to the appropriate sections. You may want to link them to articles on the Catholic Answers home page – the tracts section.

In your response, you might then say:

"One of the reasons that I am exploring Catholicism is that I have learned that accusations like this either totally misrepresent Catholic teaching, that they make some silly statement like “Catholics think Mary saves us,” or that they completely ignore historical facts which could easily be looked up in any library.

I am still learning the Catholic faith; you seem to know all the anti-Catholic attacks which are now becoming familiar to me – but I’m not in a position to give you well-crafted answers – yet. I suggest that you go to Catholic Answers Forums if you want Catholic answers about these issues. forums.catholic-questions.org/

I will not be responding further to your e-mails about this – not because there is no answer to your assaults but because others are more able than I to give you accurate answers."

Godspeed, Paris. Get outta this mess! Unsubscribe from those lists! We get plenty of that stuff here on CA – and you can get QUITE an education in responding to these things.

 

[MariaG]

Paris,

Never feel bad about seeking our help!!! But maybe you might wish to just delete these emails for awhile. Make no mistake, Satan is trying to pull you away from the truth that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.

“Neither is she [Mary]a help to us, she is dead and in heaven and no longer accessible to us. Hebrews tells us that Christ is our intercessor and He ALONE.”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

That was from here catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

The saints in heaven as per the Bible, offer our prayers to God. Your friend is just wrong. Christ is our only way to God. But the Bible also tells us to pray for one another. Your friend probably prays for you. That is a form of intercessory prayer. A word I actually learned while still in the Protestant circles. The word intecessor is the same word, but used with different meanings when it comes to what Christ alone does for us, and what it means when we pray for one another.

I have to go otherwise I would go one by one on these.

Truly, consider not reading these for awhile. Not because there is not an answer, but because they shake you faith so severely when you read them.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[alyssa]

Maybe I need to drop from the group, eh?

If you can’t be friends with them without their bombarding you about what THEY think catholicism is, then you may want to take some time away from them. If you guys can agree to not discuss religion for x time (6 mo, whatever), that is another idea.

If I were you, I would start reading everything I could get my hands on, but NOT debating for awhile. It took me a good 2 years to get semi-proficient in explaining the faith well to non-catholics. that may sound like a long time, but in addition to knowing our faith, we also have to know all these attacks that will be used against us and whatnot.

 

[JimG]

Before you get into any more ad hoc religious discussions, I’d recommend you get a copy of Karl Keating’s book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” and read it through.

Rather than trying to reply to all the objections, why not just refer them to Catholic.com and let them do their own research?

 

[dumspirospero]

Dejavu…it seems the OP knows every Fundamentalist and Evangelical in the United States and they have started a coalition to attack him/her on matters of the Catholic Church.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

“Neither is she [Mary]a help to us, she is dead and in heaven and no longer accessible to us. Hebrews tells us that Christ is our intercessor and He ALONE.”

I like the absurdity of this one, because the Epistle of Hebrews states that we as Christians have come not to Jesus alone, but have also come to the MANY angels and saints within the Holy Heavenly City…

you have come* to [past tense] …the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, AND* to the assembly of the first-born* who are enrolled in heaven, AND to a judge who is God of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. *(RSV Hebrews 12:272-24)

Notice the frequent use of the word “AND” in the passage above. Catholics agree with the author of Hebrews that it is not God OR angels OR saints, but GOD AND ANGELS AND SAINTS. It’s as it they were all ONE BODY in union with one another. Weird, huh?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Paris,

Invite them here to this forum to discuss why you disagree with them. So long as they promise to be respectful in accord with the forum rules, I’m sure they will learn from the experience. If they are serious, they’ll take you up on it. If not … well, brush the dust from your feet and move on.

 

[Genesis315]

Remember, Jesus doesn’t give people new names just because He gets a kick out of it. It’s very significant that throughout the OT and NT the rock or cornerstone refers to Jesus or God. That’s why it is A HUGE DEAL that Jesus renames Simon as Peter (Rock). Peter will be representing Jesus. He will be the Vicar of Christ on earth.

 

[DianJo]

Dear Paris,
I am very happy that you are coming home and your willingness to learn but…

IMHO, you are far too young in the faith to be effectively debating people who have been brainwashed all their lives into believing these old lies. They have learned these things since they were old enough to talk and it’s been taught to them since they were babies! I have been a Catholic all my life (mostly) and I have significant difficulty with defending against these lies.

Catholics are not brought up to memorize scripture to spew at people. We are brought up to believe all the revelation - Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium. That’s way too much to memorize! We take revelation in all it’s fullness and in reference to the big picture. We go way further than the surface of bible verses! Your email “friends” look at Christianity in a vacuum - absent of history, church father’s writings and in the absense of the whole of what the people believed at that time. It’s as if nothing existed before the 1500’s! It’s absolutely amazing! Nothing they believed was taught before the 1500’s and they act as though the Catholic beliefs are made up!

Get out of that group! Explain to them politely that THEY do not know what the Church teaches, they are not Catholic. That at this time, you really don’t see the need to answer their questions for them. If they want to know the answers to the questions they have posed to you, then reference some good websites, such as CA and New Advent, among others. They can do their own research! For now, you will pray and learn the Catholic faith for yourself withour any interruption from them.

Pray and don’t let them discourage you! THEY don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches! Why would you go to a math teacher to learn English? Stick with your Catechism and the bible and CA forums for your own learning!

 

[John_Henry]

“Neither is she [Mary]
a help to us, she is dead and in heaven and no longer accessible to us. Hebrews tells us that Christ is our intercessor and He ALONE.”

1 Tim 2:1

Perhaps you would be willing to think and pray about what I have said and see if your spirit might not testify to what I have said?"

2 Pet. 1:20

"Nicole Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit when he left and told us that the Holy Spirit would lead us to truth, to worship, the Holy Spirit is the embodiment of Christ, they together are GOD.

John 16:13. Who is he talking to?

if God were to choose a single member of his Apostles it would not have been Peter.

John 21:15-17

"Do you really think you’ll go to someplace called Purgatory when you die? Please so me something to support that.

1 Cor. 3:15; Rev 21:27

There is only one thing that can cleanse us of our sins. That is the Blood of Jesus."

Who says otherwise?

there NEVER really was a single body of Christians. From the very beginning there were factions and people with various interpretations.

The “history” that is then quoted is basically BS. I have said it before (not to you), I’ll say it again…Kenneth Whitehead’s book, “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic” will walk anyone through the early papacy, and address the non-sense that it was a strictly “western” concept.

 

[Scalia]

Paris Re: Matt 16:18; why they’re wrong

(1.) The passage is all about Peter

(2.) Jesus Changes his Name. Nobody was ever named Peter/Rock until this passage. When God changes someones name it is HUGE. Think Abraham etc.

(3.) Jesus gives Peter the Keys!!! That is REAL, TANGIBLE authority. This is corroborated by Isaiah 22, where Eliakim is given the keys to the Kingdom of David. and Revelations. In the Isaiah example it wasn’t some symbolic thing but REAL, EARTHLY authority. For heavens sake, can we all stipulate and agree Christ our Lord knew what he was doing here?

(4.) Jesus says I am changing your name to rock (Peter) and the VERY NEXT SENTENCE - Jesus states he is building HIS Church upon that rock. In order to interpret that in your “friends” manner, you would have to go back to the preceding paragraph and make the connection. Take the scripture, go into a quite room, and give it a plain reading. Trust yourself, it means what it says as it is written.

 

[LSK]

Paris, Please remember that when people ‘hate’ they cannot be convinced.

There are actually two Eastern Churches - and the Byzantine Catholics are a part of the Catholic Church because they acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as the representative of Christ on earth.

Mary, and all the saints, are not “dead” - only their bodies are dead. Of course they are alive! And the living can always help the living.

I think you may want to opt out of the group until they can calm down and not find it necessary to attack another Christian for their faith.

Do so with love, and be at peace with the knowledge that you have come home.

 

[Scalia]

I would like to deal with a very specific verse in Scripture that seems to be the basis behind a major dispute between Catholics and non Catholics. Almost every Protestant whom I have ever discussed the meaning of Matthew 16:18 has given me basically the same interpretation; that Peter’s confession of faith is the rock that Jesus builds his church on, not Peter himself. I have also seen many Catholics on this forum seeking the answer to this erroneous interpretation of Matt 16:18. I am not interested in debating the Papacy, authority or anything else except for a grammatical evaluation of the passage that actually begins with verse 15. Here is the entire passage:

Matt 16:15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. **

I would like for any non Catholic who believes that Peter’s confession of faith is “the rock” to answer this specific line of reasoning:

Peter’s confession of faith is in verse 16, Jesus’ reference to “this rock” is in verse 18.

In verse 18 Jesus says, “and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church”. **Peter **is the object of that sentence; so when Jesus says in the second part of the sentence, “…and on this rock I will build my church” he is simply referring back to the object which is Peter. “This rock” must relate back to the closest noun, not to a noun two sentences back. That my friends is elementary grammar!

Here is an example sentence: “I have a car and a truck, and it is blue.” Which is blue? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun “it.” You simply cannot skip over a noun and attach it to some earlier mentioned noun, especially one that is not even in the same sentence.

A 2nd grader would get an F if they tried using this kind of faulty grammar; how is it that educated adults cannot see the obvious. I want to hear from anyone that claims Peter’s profession of faith is the “rock” in verse 18.

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