I can't obey

[ALoveDivine]

It is possible to continue to receive communion in the Catholic Church even if you don’t understand a particular Church teaching; just as long as you live your life according to it.

And if I don’t live my life according to it? Putting the sin issue aside (since I reject the Latin concept of “mortal sin” anyway), would I still be considered a Catholic? I also would be ok with not partaking of any sacraments until I’m no longer involved in contraception (aka when I’m old), which of course its kind of heart-breaking, but I won’t partake unworthily either.

Look at the end of the day, a bunch of kids and a sex-less marriage are both out of the question. We may give NFP a shot. If it doesn’t work, other means will be employed. It is what is is. So if you can, I’d like you to answer those questions I just asked in light of this fact.

 

[TK421]

If you dissent on a non-negotiable Church teaching (which contraception always has been and always will be) you can’t receive communion, and you wouldn’t be able to celebrate Reconciliation either. You’re still welcome to attend a Catholic Church, along with everybody and anybody else in the world. The only part that would be hypocritical would be if you received, since the act of communion is an oath from you that says, “I believe everything that Christ teaches through the Church”. It isn’t hypocritical to attend a Catholic Mass, since that in itself is not a public affirmation that you submit to everything that it teaches. I do imagine attending Mass your entire life, where both yourself and your spouse shouldn’t be receiving communion, would be painful and strange. That last part is my own opinion. Obviously I want you to stay with all my heart, including the fact that submitting to this teaching will provide you greater happiness than what the world or other religious groups will offer you.

 

[ALoveDivine]

I do imagine attending Mass your entire life, where both yourself and your spouse shouldn’t be receiving communion, would be painful and strange.

It already is. If its not contraception its premarital sex, and if its not premarital sex its masturbation or something else. No matter what I’m literally ALWAYS in some kind of “mortal sin”. Sometimes I wish I could just up and leave when it comes time for the Eucharist. That said, I do love the liturgy and find immense value in it even apart from the sacraments. I just hold out hope that God will grant me to live long enough to where this stumbling block will no longer be an issue, and I can come back to the sacraments.

Above all, I entrust myself to the tender mercies of God, and pray that he looks upon my faith and not upon my sins. I pray that his grace may lead me to holiness, even if, like the rich man, I can’t yet leave it all behind…

I came from a life of rampant promiscuity, drug abuse, and serious criminality, so even with all my sins now I’m literally way way beyond the darkness I came from. Yet it seems the “rules” for receiving the Eucharist are so incredibly strict, it boggles my mind that anyone at all is ever worthy to receive communion. Makes me wonder why it is I’m always the only one not receiving at mass. You all must be pretty much perfect, cause that seems to be what’s demanded. Only having “venial” sins in my life would be nearly perfection as far as I’m concerned.

 

[TK421]

God’s moral commandments aren’t strict. They’re humanely impossible (and at the same time: the yoke is easy and the burden is light). They are like commanding a man that is paralyzed from the waist down to stand up and walk. Divine Aid is indispensably necessary in order to obey. When a person sees their own inability to satisfy God’s laws of charity, they can turn to his graces to receive that power.

“Do not say that it appears unjust to command a lame man to walk erect: no, says St Augustine, such a command is very useful to him”

God bless you on your journey. Pray every night to receive grace.

 

[ALoveDivine]

God’s moral commandments aren’t strict. They’re humanely impossible. Divine Aid is indispensably necessary.

Well he needs to work a miracle then, or something. Because I’m to the point now of being almost totally burt out and ready to jump ship. Why strive for holiness if I’m always gonna fall short and just end up damned anyway?

 

[TK421]

You need to tell your fiance that you aren’t going to have sex with her anymore, and if she leaves you over it, then you have to allow her to leave. If this causes severe ripples within your circle of friends and relatives, you need to accept those consequences as well.

You are at a very pivotal moment in your life. Once you’re married, you’re going to lose a lot of your freedom, and have more commitments, and change will be more difficult at that point.

I know.

 

[ALoveDivine]

I can’t do it. But thank you for your words of wisdom and caring advice. Grace and peace to you, in Jesus name.

 

[fred_conty]

I can’t do it. But thank you for your words of wisdom and caring advice. Grace and peace to you, in Jesus name.

Please get a green scapular of Mary’s, have it blessed, and carry it with you. Each day say the prayer on scapular. Also ask Mary to figure a way out for you and have trust in her.

It is thru these little things that great things come. She is your mother and always cares.

 

[davidv]

Please get a green scapular of Mary’s, have it blessed, and carry it with you. Each day say the prayer on scapular. Also ask Mary to figure a way out for you and have trust in her.

It is thru these little things that great things come. She is your mother and always cares.

Please be honest with yourself and stop saying you can’t. Own up to the fact that you have made a choice not to be chaste.

 

[Abigail_Phantom]

We can strive for holiness all we want but it is only through God’s Grace that we can achieve it.

You should do research into NFP there are different models like the Creighton Model and sometimes some women need more specialized tracking based on their biology. I have also heard talk about blood tests for the female that help pin point when the fertile time has fully past. (That is a super over simplification but I don’t remember everything from the radio show I was listening to).

I think that (if you are in the USA a least) it has been ingrained in us that children are expressive and we have lowered them almost to a level of things or possessions. I only want 1-2 children. People say that in almost the same tone as: I want a pair of brown and black dress shoes. I find it so strange that people now view children like this. They truly aren’t even seem or depicted as people in most conversations. I think that has a lot to do with the sex ed movements in schools and trying to scare young adults and children about the “dangers of sex”. I just think it is sad that children are held up as road blocks and problems instead of blessing.

That being said two things.

One, on a personal level I struggled with both porn and masturbation. Before coming back to the Church I had entrenched myself in the sexual movement that is still very much going on. Freedom of sexual expression and sexual experimentation in all forms. A celebration of our sexuality and a freedom and willingness to use it as we wanted. When I came back to the Church I knew that things like that weren’t allowed. I did them anyways because I thought where was the harm in it. Then I started to learn about the dignity of the human person, and about my own dignity as a child of God.

For a while I had to go to confession every Saturday evening. I swore I was sorry and prayed for the grace to abstain from these actions. I hated going back the next Saturday feeling like I failed God. Then I got a brown scapular and had it blessed. I don’t know why that is what God choose to use to extend his grace through but it was such a blessing to have those desires lifted from my soul. Sometimes it creeps back in but in no way like it was before. I struggled for years before returning to the Church with this in my personal life. In the end though God gave me the grace to help see me through.

Two. Know your dignity and recognize your partner’s dignity. Some people say “Oh, but we love each other” as a reason for it being alright to have premarital sex. As a Catholic if you know that it is a mortal sin then by engaging in the activity you are not only risking your eternal soul but that of the woman you are claiming to love. By using contraception you are withholding a key part of yourself during the martial act when you pledge to give everything to each other.

Side note; I didn’t read through all of the posts after but you mentioned a vasectomy, just know that sterilizing yourself is also considered a mortal sin and one that can keep you from communion as well until you have it addressed. I don’t know if anyone had brought that up.

Also don’t feel you have to go this alone. You are not the only one who struggles with these things. There are resources and people out there who can help.

As you struggle make use of the sacraments, pray, and fasting. We can fall 100 times but if we return each time sorry for our failing and seeking God’s grace to overcome our sins and make honest attempts to overcome them; we can receive God’s forgiveness. It isn’t easy to overcome our sins because of our disordered nature but that is why we have Christ.

I’ll be praying for you, God Bless.

 

[ALoveDivine]

You should do research into NFP

I have, quite extensively actually. The one method of NFP I am considering is fertility computers, specifically the lady-comp. I will recommend this to my girl. Assuming it works as well as most reviewers have claimed, we may be alright with NFP afterall.

it has been ingrained in us that children are expressive

They are. I make $12.50 an hour and work 35-40 hours a week. How many children could one conceivably provide for on that kind of income? College, healthcare, Catholic schooling, and recreation would all be basically out of the question. It would come down to needing welfare for basics. And that’s only presupposing ONE child, let alone more.

In a perfect world we could all have litters of kids and everything would be merry. In capitalist America, where healthcare and education are luxuries out of reach of vast layers of the working class, this ideal is simply out of reach.

I only want 1-2 children. People say that in almost the same tone as: I want a pair of brown and black dress shoes. I find it so strange that people now view children like this.

As I’ve made clear, I have serious reasons for this stance. Capitalist economics my friend, eviscerating families for 200+ years…

As a Catholic if you know that it is a mortal sin then by engaging in the activity you are not only risking your eternal soul but that of the woman you are claiming to love.

And taking Saint Paul’s advice, we’re seriously considering marriage. Beyond that, I don’t hold to a hard and fast “mortal venial” distinction when it comes to sin. I’m more within the sphere of the Byzantine tradition on this issue. All sin is sin, and all sin is grievous. Only God can judge me, and luckily for us he is merciful. How God will judge ANY person is beyond the knowledge of anyone but God alone. Yet rest assured, I do not presume upon his mercy as an excuse to sin. I know very well that I may not make it…

Side note; I didn’t read through all of the posts after but you mentioned a vasectomy, just know that sterilizing yourself is also considered a mortal sin and one that can keep you from communion as well until you have it addressed.

Yes I know. BUT the church has made it clear that a reversal is not required for a valid confession and absolution. Kind of a loop-hole I know. Yet I’ve already decided that I will not go down this route, unless my wife’s life is in imminent danger should another pregnancy occur.

I’m sorry, but I will not chance it with NFP in such a situation. I will get that vasectomy, confess it, and do penance for the sin. Such a case would be a tragic instance where a wrong may need to be done to avert an even greater catastrophe. If only the hard issues of life were consistently black and white huh?

I do thank you all for your help and kind words. I am increasingly warming to the idea of using NFP, and I do find some wisdom in the Church’s teaching. Assuming there are no life threatening issues involved, I think NFP may be the route I choose to take. Though ultimately that would be in the hands of my spouse, and as the woman she will ultimately be the one to make the final decision about what kind of birth control is employed, whether “natural” or otherwise. All I can do is advise, ultimately that choice is going to fall to her. For my part I will advise NFP via fertility computer.

Hmmm, maybe sacraments are somewhere in my future afterall

 

[Evania]

Of course in such instance I would be more than happy to lovingly abstain…

How, when according to your posts you aren’t even able to abstain now? You will lovingly abstain when it can affect her physical life, but not lovingly abstain when it can affect her spiritual life, thus risking her soul?

It’s hard. I get it. Multiple saints including St. Augustine, St. Francis and St. Thomas Aquinas got it too. That’s just the saints off the top of my head because the actual number of saints that have struggled with this are too numerous to count. The difference is that they owned it. Have you ever read St. Augustine’s Confessions? He cried and prayed over this as well. Guess what? By the grace of God he persevered. The work wasn’t all God’s. He COOPERATED with God’s grace. He stopped placing himself in tempting situations. He sent his lover away. You don’t have to break up with your girlfriend, but you can say, “NO!”

God can remove your sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. However, He is not going to mess with your WILL to sin. That’s your turf. Where your heart is, there will your treasure be. Is it the Eucharist? Then stop fornicating so you can receive. Is it your girlfriend? Then stop endangering her soul.

You are able to abstain. The saints knew this, and so should you. The question is will you? If you do, then reconcile with God. If not, then you are saying, “I will not serve.” If you feel that you are in “bondage”, get help from a priest or find a spiritual director. By indulging in this sin and telling yourself that you are powerless, it only tightens your chains. Either way, hopefully you will choose to lovingly abstain from your girlfriend, as you said you would happily do if she was your sick wife, and have this be the start of a new chapter in your lives.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

In parallel, don’t forget to look at the other things in life. What can you each do in the few minutes left over? Were you both put down earlier in life? Are there relationships you can beneficially develop?

“It’s not (altogether) about what it’s about.”

And don’t get too Byzantine.

 

[Rau]

…It [NFP]is self-evidently a form of contraception.

NFP is a means to limit the number of children, which is an entirely acceptable end. NFP is identified as an acceptable means to that end, whereas contraception is an unacceptable means. So, while the ends are the same (and acceptable), the two alternative means are plainly different, and that is the issue - the Church takes objection to the particular “means” called contraception. If you can grasp that point, then you can move on to understanding why this particular means is unacceptable to the Church - of course, you may reject the Church’s rationale for this, but then at least you will arguing the correct point, and not an erroneous one.

I do earnestly hope and the pray the church will wise up and change its perspective on non-abortive contraceptive practices.

The Church regards the teaching as unchangeable. BTW, if pregnancy presented a risk of death to your wife, would you trust a barrier method, or adopt some other method?

By the way, I know many Catholics will say, in response to those serious reasons I elucidated, that we must be abstinent. I simply can’t live that out, i’m sorry. If, in my very marriage, its Hell or abstinence, I guess I’m going to Hell.

You make it sound as though temporary abstinence would constitute an unbearable agony. I wonder why you fear it so much? Where does your fiancé sit on this question?

 

[Rau]

…Above all, I entrust myself to the tender mercies of God, and pray that he looks upon my faith and not upon my sins. I pray that his grace may lead me to holiness, even if, like the rich man, I can’t yet leave it all behind…

Have you spoken with a priest on these issues, be that in the confessional or elsewhere?

 

[Rau]

You need to tell your fiance that you aren’t going to have sex with her anymore, and if she leaves you over it, then you have to allow her to leave. If this causes severe ripples within your circle of friends and relatives, you need to accept those consequences as well.

She loves him, and wants a life with him. I cannot see her leaving him over the matter of pre-marital sex. Though I guess the OP should respond.

 

[Rau]

…the church has made it clear that a reversal [of vasectomy] is not required for a valid confession and absolution. Kind of a loop-hole I know. Yet I’ve already decided that I will not go down this route, unless my wife’s life is in imminent danger should another pregnancy occur.

I’m sorry, but I will not chance it with NFP in such a situation. I will get that vasectomy, confess it, and do penance for the sin.

Reversal is not required, but sincere contrition is. I don’t understand how, with this thinking, you can achieve that.

Such a case would be a tragic instance where a wrong may need to be done to avert an even greater catastrophe.

No…what you mean is that “I would choose a wrong”, despite other “right” alternatives…

 

[ALoveDivine]

The Church regards the teaching as unchangeable.

That is widely debated. I fail to see how it falls under the category of infallible teaching. Also, historically the church has forbidden any form of birth control at all, including NFP. A vast majority of the church fathers plainly condemned it, including Augstine. As far as I know, the Church only approved it in the 20th century. If the teaching is unchangeable, how is it that the church, well…changed its mind on this issue? Is NFP licit or not? Church Fathers and pre-1900’s Catholic Church says no, modern Catholic Church says yes. Hmmmm.

BTW, if pregnancy presented a risk of death to your wife, would you trust a barrier method, or adopt some other method?

I hate to say this…but I would go for sterilization. A lesser-evil approach. I know it is sin, I don’t justify it, I would confess it and receive absolution and do penance for it. It would grieve me and I would only ever do it if it was a life and death issue. I pray I never have to face that circumstance.

You make it sound as though temporary abstinence would constitute an unbearable agony. I wonder why you fear it so much? Where does your fiancé sit on this question?

I was not referring to temporary abstinence in the statement you quoted, the context regarded a sexless marriage. Like, if another pregnancy would be fatal, it would have to come down to sterilization, because neither of us could bear the burden of perpetual abstinence. If that was a burden I could bear, I wouldn’t be called to marriage, I’d be called to the preisthood.

Temporary abstinence, such as is called for by NFP, I think we could handle. Our biggest concern right now is whether the “natural” methods will work reliably enough. There are grave reasons for us to definitely not have more than one child, and likely for the indefinite future. We don’t make enough money and kids are sadly way too expensive.

Have you spoken with a priest on these issues, be that in the confessional or elsewhere?

Yes, in confession. I am basically told to keep trying, and if I fall, to know that God is merciful and to come back to confession.

She loves him, and wants a life with him. I cannot see her leaving him over the matter of pre-marital sex. Though I guess the OP should respond.

I honestly don’t believe she’d leave me for any reason at all. Which makes me consider marrying her all the more

I don’t understand how, with this thinking, you can achieve that.

Say you had to go to war to prevent a great evil, like Hitler exterminating millions innocent lives in pursuit of world domination. Take it further, you had to bomb Germany. Many, many lives would be ended by your actions. You would in fact be taking life, and not only enemy combatants, innocent lives as well. Yet these actions would avert a much greater evil. So you take those actions. Would this render you unable to be contrite over having killed so many people?

Now consider this. Another pregnancy will kill your wife. You could try to abstain, but if you two lose self-control and slip up and she gets pregnant, it will result in her death. The failure rate for NFP is high, so again, if that fails and she gets pregnant, it will result in her death. Accepting the above premises, sterilization may be the only way to protect the life of your wife from the death that would almost certainly follow from a pregnancy. So I would take the action, but you do see how I would still be contrite over it right? It would HURT me to have to do that, but I would for the life of my wife. The two scenarios, though vastly different, are nevertheless parallel. BTW this is the ONLY circumstance in which I would go for sterilization, NOT for selfish reasons.

 

[Rau]

That is widely debated. I fail to see how it [sinfulness of contraception] falls under the category of infallible teaching.

How many papal statements have been explicit on the immorality of contraception? Do you imagine there might be another one day that contradicts the teaching - one that says - “actually, barrier methods are fine”? How do you regard the sinfulness of pre-marital sex? Is this one possibly changeable too?

Also, historically the church has forbidden any form of birth control at all, including NFP. A vast majority of the church fathers plainly condemned it, including Augstine. As far as I know, the Church only approved it in the 20th century. If the teaching is unchangeable, how is it that the church, well…changed its mind on this issue? Is NFP licit or not? Church Fathers and pre-1900’s Catholic Church says no, modern Catholic Church says yes. Hmmmm.

That’s news to me. If you can point to any Church teaching that says to choose (mutually) not to have sex on some occasion -for any reason at all- is wrong, I’d be interested to read it. And please note the words of a saint do not rise to the level of a Church teaching.

I hate to say this…but I would go for sterilization. A lesser-evil approach. I know it is sin, I don’t justify it, I would confess it and receive absolution and do penance for it. It would grieve me and I would only ever do it if it was a life and death issue. I pray I never have to face that circumstance.

As I’ve said elsewhere, absolution requires a genuine contrition - it is difficult to see that your pre-planned contrition would achieve that standard.

I was not referring to temporary abstinence in the statement you quoted, the context regarded a sexless marriage. Like, if another pregnancy would be fatal, it would have to come down to sterilization, because neither of us could bear the burden of perpetual abstinence. If that was a burden I could bear, I wouldn’t be called to marriage, I’d be called to the preisthood.

I do hope you wife does not long pre-decease you, or become and invalid. What would you do then? How would you bear it?

Temporary abstinence, such as is called for by NFP, I think we could handle. Our biggest concern right now is whether the “natural” methods will work reliably enough. There are grave reasons for us to definitely not have more than one child, and likely for the indefinite future. We don’t make enough money and kids are sadly way too expensive.

I agree it is important for you and your fiancé to examine your capacity to financially sustain yourselves and a family. In general, NFP is highly reliable if practiced properly, and not so reliable if practiced casually.

Yes, in confession. I am basically told to keep trying, and if I fall, to know that God is merciful and to come back to confession.

I sensed from your discussion of pre-marital sex, you may have “set aside” that advice? Or am I mistaken - are you and your fiancé actually both trying genuinely to remain chaste?

Say you had to go to war to prevent a great evil, like Hitler exterminating innocent lives. Take it further, you had to bomb Germany. Many, many lives would be ended by your actions. You would in fact be taking life, and not only enemy combatants, innocent lives as well. Yet these actions would avert a much greater evil. So you take those actions. Would this render you unable to be contrite over having killed so many people?

No, not at all. The theology of the Church addresses situation like this - the actions of a just war, including striking at military targets with the risk of innocent lives being lost (not intended, but as an unintended consequence), is addressed, and can be moral. But contraception is considered an “intrinsic evil” - meaning it is always wrong to choose…regardless of the intentions or circumstances of the one choosing it. This it has in common with other immoral acts such as calumny, murder, adultery, fornication, and so forth.

 

[ALoveDivine]

As I’ve said elsewhere, absolution requires a genuine contrition - it is difficult to see that your pre-planned contrition would achieve that standard.

Imagine you are an American pilot. You were one of the pilots who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Meaning, you intentionally struck a civilian target knowing full well you were killing massive amounts of innocent people. You did it to end the war and avert many many more casualties that would come from an outright invasion of Japan. You are convinced that it had to be done, yet you are greatly grieved at your actions, consider you intentionally destroyed innocent life. This would be contrition, no?

Is intentionally killing innocent people intrinsically evil? If it is, then this is a situation where one committed an intrinsically evil act to avert an even greater evil, yet nonetheless recognizing the intrinsic evil of his act he is contrite. You see the parallel?

I sensed from your discussion of pre-marital sex, you may have “set aside” that advice? Or am I mistaken - are you and your fiancé actually both trying genuinely to remain chaste?

It varies. At times we really are striving for holiness, at other times we give in and push that still small voice out and indulge ourselves. Its a bit of a back and forth. Sadly, whether striving for holiness or not, we always seem to give in and “do it”. I’m about ready to just get married and put the fornication behind us once and for all.

the actions of a just war, including striking at military targets with the risk of innocent lives being lost (not intended, but as an unintended consequence)

What if innocent lives being lost is actually intended, within the context of a just war and to avert greater evil? Was either the firebombing of Dresden or the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki an intrinsically evil act, done to avert a greater evil? Could one then be contrite for having committed an intrinsically evil act even though a greater evil was averted thereby? May one be contrite over the means employed, though not in regard to the greater evil having been averted?