I come not to abolish the law

[JFonseka]

How come Jesus says he does not come to abolish the old law but then he does change a lot of things, like no stoning, changes the eye for an eye principle in the old testament, and no need for circumsision, etc?

Thanks in advance,

Peace and God Bless

 

[Palladio]

How come Jesus says he does not come to abolish the old law but then he does change a lot of things, like no stoning, changes the eye for an eye principle in the old testament, and no need for circumsision, etc?

Thanks in advance,

Peace and God Bless

Ten Commandments were what He had in mind.

 

[Cran]

And I think we should also keep in mind that Jesus was speaking to Jews: They had special laws and customs that they regard as binindg for members of Israel ONLY and never thought of imposing them on the whole world (only on proselytes, of course).

Jesus didn’t come to change these things for Jews, they still observe them, and I think, the so-called messianic Jews do so, too, but I might be mistaken here. Therefore, he didn’t abolish anything: The law is still binding for those whom it concerns - but I am not of the tribe of Israel, those laws specially directed to the old convenat are not binding for me.

There are other laws in the Old testament that must be observed by Jews and Christians alike (There is no other God etc.), but circumcision and other things do definitely not belong to it. The confusion about this question arises because the early followers of Jesus were Jews, and it took some time and meetins to establish the rule that followers of Christ who were not Jews did not have to follow their customs. Acts makes a very intersting read, don’t you agree?

Regarding stoning: The Old Testament is also a book of laws for the tribe of Israel in a specific time. We do not live in that time (wwe have no binding rule on headdresses for that reason, too - other culture, other time), and we are not subject to Israel, either - so no stoning You can see this also in the New Testament: The Jews appeal to Pilate in order to have Jesus crucified - they are simply not allowed by the current (Roman) laws to do it themselves. And Paul leaves no doubt, I think, about the fact that Christians should also follow the laws that are binding in their state and culture.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Ten Commandments were what He had in mind.

Actually, it’s the 613 Commandments, of which the 10 are a part.

What was Jesus’ comment?
Mat 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The law finds it full and true meaning in Christ. No more need for the ashes of Red Hefers to purify the temple…Jesus is the temple and it’s purification. Jesus gives us the full meaning of “Do Not Commit Adultery” in that lust is itself the sin…adultery simply it’s consumation.

And yes, also that the 613 Commandments were given to the Jews and the Jews are still he Chosen People and bound to this covenant.

 

[wmscott]

How come Jesus says he does not come to abolish the old law but then he does change a lot of things, like no stoning, changes the eye for an eye principle in the old testament, and no need for circumsision, etc?

Thanks in advance,

Peace and God Bless

I thought that Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone. not that stonning was to be no longer. Just a thought.

 

[Clovis]

Christ also said, that not one word of the law would be forgotten until all was fulfilled. I think Christ meant that throughout the whole world there are moral and criminal laws that keep the government working properly, and that all the way till the end times there will be rules of law. Christ also warned strongly about excepting things among your adversaries while you were in the way with them, this might seem passive, but Christ was showing the severities that come forth from arguing and bickering, especially if you are in the wrong and it is made gravely consequential to the person who is in the wrong; it also could be alluding to the tormentors, and that God will not free you from them until you have forgiven people their trespasses.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Actually, it’s the 613 Commandments, of which the 10 are a part.

.

The Aseret ha-D’varim are not part of the 613.

jewfaq.org/10.htm

But what about the so-called “Ten Commandments,” the words recorded in Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)? In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D’varim (Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d’varim and dibrot come from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing; thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot.

The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person’s life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood.

 

[Calvinator]

And yes, also that the 613 Commandments were given to the Jews and the Jews are still he Chosen People and bound to this covenant.

What do you mean by the above statement?

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Ten Commandments were what He had in mind.

The Ten Commandments are not a part of the law. They are categories.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

There are other laws in the Old testament that must be observed by Jews and Christians alike (There is no other God etc.), but circumcision and other things do definitely not belong to it. The confusion about this question arises because the early followers of Jesus were Jews, and it took some time and meetins to establish the rule that followers of Christ who were not Jews did not have to follow their customs. Acts makes a very intersting read, don’t you agree?

The only laws in the Tanakh (Old Testament) that must be followed by non-Jews are the Seven Laws of Noah.

 

[Palladio]

The Ten Commandments are not a part of the law. They are categories.

You assume Christ spoke with legalistic precision. But you also don’t directly address the op.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

You assume Christ spoke with legalistic precision. But you also don’t directly address the op.

How could Jesus be referring to (had in mind) the Ten Commandments which are not part of the law when he was talking about the law?

 

[Yerusalyim]

What do you mean by the above statement?

God’s promise to the Jewish People is still valid, God still has a Covenant with them, they are still his chosen people and are still bound to observe the Law. Paul remained a faithful Jew his entire life while at the same time preaching the message of Christ to the Gentiles. Read ACTS to see that Paul remained faithful to the Covenant, Read Romans to see that Paul says God’s Promise and Call are irrevocable.

The Mosaic Law found in the Torah contains 613 Laws…not 10. When Jesus, or Paul, or any of the NT writers spoke of the Law, that’s what they were talking about…the 613 Commandments. When Paul speaks about salvation apart from the works of the Law, or works, he’s specifically saying that Christians are not bound to nor saved by observing the 613 Commandments.

Ammonius,

Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but from a non-Jewish perspective, each of the 10 commandments are found in the 613, why bother confusing Christians even more?

 

[Palladio]

How could Jesus be referring to (had in mind) the Ten Commandments which are not part of the law when he was talking about the law?

That’s an interesting question, verbally.

If honor thy father and mother is not a law, but a category for the law, we have nothing more than a play on words, one which Christ could hardly have recognized, judging from the NT.

Christ commonly refers to the ten commandments, alludes to them, uses them. He never speaks as if they were these so-called categories, presumably because they were commandments–imperative laws always to be kept in mind. And He often speaks as if the Jews had gotten these ten commandments horribly wrong, not simply failed to carry them out, but had misapprehended, misunderstood, misinterpreted, overinterpreted, misapplied them.

Still not addressing the op.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Ammonius,

Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but from a non-Jewish perspective, each of the 10 commandments are found in the 613, why bother confusing Christians even more?

I don’t see what is confusing. The Aseret ha-D’varim are not part of the law. The 10 Commandments (which are not really commandments) are not found in the 613, they are categories under which you can find the 613.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I don’t see what is confusing. The Aseret ha-D’varim are not part of the law. The 10 Commandments (which are not really commandments) are not found in the 613, they are categories under which you can find the 613.

AMMO,
except that EACH of the 10 are found INSIDE the 613…so they might be catergories (which, by the way is what some Christians say the Commandment to Love God and Love Neighbor are…but not me) but since each is also found IN the 613 they are also Commandments…just not the 10 Commandments but the 613 Commandments.

For Instance…HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER…is one of the 10 (listed as number 5 by the Protestants, and number 4 by Catholics and Jews…and it’s also found IN the 613, listed as number 59…so if you run around call them just catergories…you confuse people who are only just now realizing there are more than 10 commandments (can’t tell ya how many times I’ve had Christians call me a Liar when I tell them that God gave 613 Commandments).

 

[Palladio]

AMMO,
except that EACH of the 10 are found INSIDE the 613…so they might be catergories (which, by the way is what some Christians say the Commandment to Love God and Love Neighbor are…but not me) but since each is also found IN the 613 they are also Commandments…just not the 10 Commandments but the 613 Commandments.

For Instance…HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER…is one of the 10 (listed as number 5 by the Protestants, and number 4 by Catholics and Jews…and it’s also found IN the 613, listed as number 59…so if you run around call them just catergories…you confuse people who are only just now realizing there are more than 10 commandments (can’t tell ya how many times I’ve had Christians call me a Liar when I tell them that God gave 613 Commandments).

Still not addressing the op.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Did that a long time ago, see post 4.

Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The law finds it full and true meaning in Christ. No more need for the ashes of Red Hefers to purify the temple…Jesus is the temple and it’s purification. Jesus gives us the full meaning of “Do Not Commit Adultery” in that lust is itself the sin…adultery simply it’s consumation

Further, Jesus explains that, not only shall we not commit murder, if we use hateful language toward our brethern (fellow humans) we’ve vilated this commandment…Jesus fulfils the law.

 

[Palladio]

Did that a long time ago, see post 4.

Further, Jesus explains that, not only shall we not commit murder, if we use hateful language toward our brethern (fellow humans) we’ve vilated this commandment…Jesus fulfils the law.

He also chased money changers from temple, upbraided Pharisees.

Still not addressing the op.

 

[Yerusalyim]

He also chased money changers from temple, upbraided Pharisees.
Still not addressing the op.

What a hard task master you are…I think I have addressed the OP. What does Jesus cleansing the temple or upbraiding Pharisees have to do with being the FULFILLMENT of the Law? Here, I’ll address each point.

like no stoning

Actually, he didn’t say, “No stoning” he said, “He among you without sin, let him cast the first stone.” There are a lot of nuances to this story…they only brought the woman out…where was the man if she was caught committing adultery…he knew their scheming.

changes the eye for an eye principle in the old testament

Did he change it? The eye for eye, tooth for tooth thing was meant as a LIMIT upon seeking revenge or punishing…not that if some one pokes out your eye, you immediately poke his out…not changed…fulfilled…have mercy…if someone slaps your face…rather than slapping back, which would be the WORST you were allowed to do under the law (eye for eye, slap for slap) he said…turn, and offer the other cheek. What is your first reaction of someone were to slap you? To slap them back…or punch them…or kick them…or shoot them…EYE FOR EYE was meant to stop an escallation of violence…turn the other cheek to disarm opponents.

no need for circumsision, etc?

Jesus said there was no need for circumcision? Not at all, circumcision is a SPECIFICALLY JEWISH practice…a sign of the covenant between God and Israel…What Jesus spoke of was internalizing the Law…a Circumcision of the heart that was already mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (or OT if you prefer). What Paul made explicit was that we gentiles do not have to be circumcized, this is a JEWISH ritual. The Jews still do this…

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and gives it it’s perfect meaning. He said that the two greatest commandments were to LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR, on that all the Law (all 613 Commandments) and the prophets were based…and that if we lived those two laws…the others were fulfilled.