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IneedGod
Guest
Heb 6 where it talks about those who fall away can never again come back…
Help me understand that as it does trouble me.
Ty
Help me understand that as it does trouble me.
Ty
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thistle
Guest
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 4. &c. For it is impossible,[1] &c. This is an obscure place, differently expounded, which shows how rash it is for the ignorant to pretend to understand the holy Scriptures. Many understand these words, it is impossible, &c. of the sacrament of penance, or of returning to God by a profitable repentance, especially after such heinous sins as an apostacy from the true faith. But then we must take the word impossible, to imply no more than a thing that is very hard to be done, or that seldom happens, as when it is said, (Matthew xix. 26.) that it is impossible for rich men to be saved: and (Luke xvii. 1.) it is impossible that scandals should not come. For it is certain that it is never impossible for the greatest sinners to repent by the assistance which God offers them, who has also left the power to his ministers to forgive in his name the greatest sins. But others (whose interpretation seems preferable) expound this of baptism, which can only be given once. The words here in the text very much favour this exposition, when it is said, who were once enlightened. For baptism in the first ages was called the sacrament of illumination. See St. Denis de cælesti Hierar. chap. iv.; St. Gregory of Nazianzus; &c. The following words also agree with baptism, when they are said to have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost; to have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come; all which signify the interior graces, the miraculous gifts, and power of working miracles, which they who were baptized frequently received in those days. — They cannot be renewed again unto penance. That is, they cannot be renewed again by baptism, which is also called a renovation. (Titus iii. 5.) Their sins may indeed be forgiven them in the sacrament of penance, but this is not a renovation like that in baptism, in which both the guilt, and all pain due to past sins, is remitted; whereas in the sacrament of penance, though the guilt, and the eternal punishments due to sins be remitted, yet many times, temporal punishments, to be undergone either in this world or the next, still remain due to such as have been great sinners, to them who by relapsing into the same sins, have crucified again to themselves the Son of God, making a mockery of him; i.e. who, insensible of the favours received, have ungratefully renewed sin; to take away which Christ suffered, was mocked, crucified, &c. (Witham) — Macknight observes that Beza, without any authority from ancient manuscripts hath inserted in his version Si, If they shall fall away, that this text might not appear to contradict the Calvinistic doctrine of the assurance of salvation. The English translators have followed Beza. The biblical student will be glad to find Dr. Wells, in his elegant edition of the New Testament, frequently restoring and preferring those readings which agree with the Latin Vulgate. The same just tribute is paid to the Vulgate by Walton, Mills, Gerard, Griesbach, Harwood, and others. Indeed the Vulgate has been declared authentic in a general council, and probably expresses more of the true reading of the original or autograph, than any Greek edition that is now to be found, and certainly much more than modern versions, which are stained more or less by the preconceived sentiments of the translators. — For the earth that drinketh in the rain, &c. He bringeth this comparison, to give them a horror of abusing God’s graces and favours, and of making themselves guilty of hell fire. (Witham)
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Heb. 6:4-6 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance … if they then commit apostasy…”
I tend to second the notion that when Heb. 6 refers to the inability to repent again it means one cannot be “baptized” again. Repentance and baptism often go hand in hand, biblically speaking (i.e. “repent and be baptized”). So I think it is a strong argument to say Hebrews is eluding to baptism–one cannot be restored again in baptismal repentance. That is especially in light of a number of Scriptures referring to being restored after falling away - e.g. the Prodigal son was “in his father’s house” and then “out of his father’s house” and then back “in his father’s house.”
I tend to second the notion that when Heb. 6 refers to the inability to repent again it means one cannot be “baptized” again. Repentance and baptism often go hand in hand, biblically speaking (i.e. “repent and be baptized”). So I think it is a strong argument to say Hebrews is eluding to baptism–one cannot be restored again in baptismal repentance. That is especially in light of a number of Scriptures referring to being restored after falling away - e.g. the Prodigal son was “in his father’s house” and then “out of his father’s house” and then back “in his father’s house.”
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IneedGod
Guest
Ah yes the Prodigal son, ty 
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pollylodges
Guest
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
I’m not in favor of Thistle’s quote. Haydock is really being borderline when it comes to reasoning…
Hebrews 5:12 “you need to be taught again the first principles”
The passage is consistent, logically, with the problem of what these apostates are doing when they have fallen away. They are running around saying Jesus deserved the crucifixion as a logical consequence of their disbelief. If he is not the messiah, he is a liar and a blasphemer. False prophets, according to the law of Moses, deserve death.
Thus, where it is written – “they crucify him again to themselves” and “holding him up to public shame for their own ends” – it means what they are doing immediately upon apostasy. While they do this, it is impossible to argue with them. As Jesus says elsewhere, don’t throw your pearls before swine – they will trample you underfoot.
In vs. 6:7, the sentence starts with “For”; that word is equivalent to “because”. It is in THAT verse, where the logic is expounded as to why they are unsuitable to have a change of heart.
A patch of land full of briers must be burned before it can be re-planted. The briers themselves, even if small, are such a disaster as to bring about the disgust of the owner – and his curses. However, the REASON given in Vs 7, clearly has the exception – if burnt, the land can be replanted; He doesn’t say it is cursed, but it is “near” to being cursed. Thus, his previous sentence can be seen to be customary Jewish black and white phrasing with a partial contradiction to clarify it’s meaning.
As a general principle, whenever two contradicting ideas are juxtaposed within a few sentences of each other – the Jewish writer means ONLY the idea which is not excluded by the correcting contradiction.
Consider again:
The church itself says in an infallible Oecumenical council-- “Baptism is a laborious form of baptism”. Then note – St. Paul speaks of baptism(S). (6:2) I don’t see how repentance through confession is ruled out in this passage – for Paul is speaking of all of them;
The original convert had to be in a particular state to even hear the word of God (the seed planted in the ground???). Clearly, if the ground is full of briers – it isn’t ready to be planted. Thus, while they run around cursing Jesus – they can’t be converted; but only refuted (and at one’s own peril.)
Assuredly, original baptism can’t be repeated is true; but that’s not the only issue in Hebrew’s 6. sheesh.
Hebrews 6:9
Beloved, of you we have better confidence that does not stop short of your salvation even when we speak to you as we are speaking now.
Clearly, St. Paul is threatening them with damnation because they are nearly apostate – but he hopes for them.
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pollylodges
Guest
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
- Status