I could use some help/prayers

[totustuusmaria1]

Philippians 2:12-13

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

If Paul was completely sure of his salvation, why was would he “work it out” and why would he do so with fear and trembling. If we have no choice in this life whether we go to heaven or hell after we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior then we have no free will. It is an offense against justice and the free will of a person for one who refuses mercy and salvation to receive it. Beyond our fallible reasoning though, the Church has the authority given by Christ himself in the Holy Spirit to speak infallibly on matters of Faith and morals including salvation and the interpretation of scripture. (see quote beneath). Do you have that authority? Do you really think yourself capable of understanding on your own fallible intelligence this great mystery of salvation as revealed through scripture and the words of Jesus Christ?

John 16:12-13
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.”

 

[SteveGC]

I am sick and tried of people saying that those people that believe OSAS think it gives them a license to sin. That is not true at all. In fact it is a lie, pure and simple. It contradicts every thing that the Bible teaches and everything that the Christain life is about.

And I would agree with the “license to sin” part (as I mentioned in my post above - #13), but would disagree about Biblical proof for OSAS.

No! I would not agree. To say that the God who has the power to saved me does not have the power to keep me saved is to deny God’s power

We don’t deny the power at all. We deny that it is His Plan. He also has the “power” to annihilate us right now. And the “power” to make us all love one another. And the “power” to damn us all to hell.

What he CAN do, and what He has CHOSEN to do, can be one and the same, but as you would have to agree, are often NOT one and the same.

The “power” to forgive us from all future sins, even before we choose to commit them, is certainly something He CAN do…but in no way is it true that He has revealed it to be what He CHOOSES to do.

To believe it is His choice to do this, is to limit His gift of free will to a one time profession of faith on our part. Once we do this one act, free will then goes out the window. This is NOT His Plan for us at all. Free will is with us from birth to death, and we certainly can (and some often do) choose to jump from His saving grasp (although we agree no one can pull us from the grasp if we choose to remain within it).

God Bless

 

[Tomster]

I am going to make this short,

I am sick and tried of people saying that those people that believe OSAS think it gives them a license to sin. That is not true at all. In fact it is a lie, pure and simple. It contradicts every thing that the Bible teaches and everything that the Christain life is about.

While St. Paul writes, “For God hath not called us to unto uncleanliness, but unto sanctification” (1 Thessalonians 4:7), Luther pronounced the following blasphemy: “If adultery could be committed in faith, it would not be a sin.” The apostle’s concept of justification, turned inside out and upside down, was thus brought to the depths of degradation.

It was Luther who laid the foundation for the separation of religion and morality. For by stating that fiduciary faith alone suffices for obtaining both justification and eternal happiness, he minimized our moral faculties to such an extentthat charity and good works no longer affect our relations with God. By this doctrine Luther opened a fundamental breach between religion and morality, between faith and law, ans assigned to each its own distinct sphere of action, in which each man can attain its end independent of the other.

Every Catholic is forced to agree that Protestantism from its very beginning and foundation is based on self deception. We assert this of Protestantism in general; for the doctrine of as defended by the reformed churches differs only in nonessentials from Lutheranism. The most important of these differences within Protestantism is to be found in Calvin’s system, which taught that only such as are predestined infallibly to eternal salvation obtain justification, while in those not predestined God produces a mere appearance of faith and righteousness, and this in order to punish them the more severely in hell.

To sum up, your belief makes of the forgiveness of sin merely a concealment of it, so to speak, and of sanctification a declaration of justification, or an external imputation of the justice of Christ. The Catholic Church, however, teaches that justification consists of an actual obliteration of sin and an interior sanctification: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive our sins and to cleanse us of from all iniquity” (1 John 1:8).

 

[Tomster]

No! I would not agree. To say that the God who has the power to saved me does not have the power to keep me saved is to deny God’s power

Also after sixty year of studing the Bible I have found nothing in the Bible that contradicts OSAS

Though some tout eternal security as one of the grandest thoughts in the Bible, careful exegetical scrutiny reveals surprisingly very little scriptural evidence for such a teaching. The Scriptural passages which teach that a Christian can fall from the salvation he once possessed are so clear they hardly need explanation. Their impact is greatest when we see them amassed together. To prove this point that our salvation is not certain until our last breath, we can demonstrate this teaching with a representative sample from each book of the New Testament so that you can see this consistent and overwhelming message in Scripture. This is not to say, however, that the Old Testament does not contain just a much or more evidence on the same topic.

For starters from the gospel of St. Matthew:

7:21-23 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.”

10:22, 28, 33 - " All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved . . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell . . . But whoever disowns me before men I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

24:12-13 - " Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

 

[Tomster]

No! I would not agree. To say that the God who has the power to saved me does not have the power to keep me saved is to deny God’s power

Also after sixty year of studing the Bible I have found nothing in the Bible that contradicts OSAS

From the gospel of St. Mark:

9:43 - “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter eternal life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.”

10:21-23 - " ‘One thing you lack,’ he said, "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have ttreasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’ At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad because he had great wealth. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, ‘How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!’ "

13:22 - “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect - if that were possible.”

 

[Tomster]

No! I would not agree. To say that the God who has the power to saved me does not have the power to keep me saved is to deny God’s power

Also after sixty year of studing the Bible I have found nothing in the Bible that contradicts OSAS

From the gospel of St. Luke:

8:13 - “Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.”

12:43-46 - “It will be good for that servant to whom the master finds doing so . . . But suppose the servant says to him, My master is taking a long time in coming and he begins to beat the men servants and maid servants, and eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and an hour he not aware. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.”

 

[Tomster]

No! I would not agree. To say that the God who has the power to saved me does not have the power to keep me saved is to deny God’s power

Also after sixty year of studing the Bible I have found nothing in the Bible that contradicts OSAS

From the gospel of St. John:

12:47-48 - “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them . . . there is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very word I spoke will condemn him at the last day.”

15:6 - " If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (It is interesting that the person who falls away was already “in” Christ, that is, as a genuine branch of the vine, not a pseudo-branch or branch that was never connected to the vine. Rather, Jesus pictures a branch, once a healthy part of the vine, that subsequently withered. Once withered, it falls off the vine and is thrown in the fire.)

 

[allischalmers]

Philippians 2:12-13

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

If Paul was completely sure of his salvation, why was would he “work it out” and why would he do so with fear and trembling. If we have no choice in this life whether we go to heaven or hell after we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior then we have no free will. It is an offense against justice and the free will of a person for one who refuses mercy and salvation to receive it. Beyond our fallible reasoning though, the Church has the authority given by Christ himself in the Holy Spirit to speak infallibly on matters of Faith and morals including salvation and the interpretation of scripture. (see quote beneath). Do you have that authority? Do you really think yourself capable of understanding on your own fallible intelligence this great mystery of salvation as revealed through scripture and the words of Jesus Christ?

John 16:12-13
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.”

If Paul was not completely sure or if put another way if Paul was unsure of his salvation how could he say in Philippians 1 ’ For I am in a strait betwist two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ: which is far better. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
And for your question “do in have the authority” Sure do the Bible says so!

 

[Seeking12]

Hello all,

I am currently playing a little theological ping pong via email with someone who believes that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon”. I know, I know, very original. As we have exchanged emails, I am providing the CCC and Scripture references to back up our position. In his last email to me, he basically says that he knows without a doubt that he is saved and that he’ll still be saved 60 years from now if he’s still alive. You and I both know that this assurance of salvation and “once saved, always saved” idea is poor theology. I’m wondering if anyone can give me any advice on how to proceed from here. I’m content just answering his questions and praying for him while allowing the Holy Spirit to do the rest, but I want to make sure I’m not missing anything.

**I would say that you, yes you, should read 1 John.

1 John 5:10-13 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. **These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. ****

Why did John write this letter? Does the “Church” teaching contradict this teaching of John? Is it possible your friend has it right? What did the Apostle Peter say about knowing salvation?

 

[DeRonde]

From the gospel of St. John:

12:47-48 - “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them . . . there is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very word I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” ** What type of person hears the gospel, but doesn’t keep the message; a believer or a non-believer?**

15:6 - " If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (It is interesting that the person who falls away was already “in” Christ, that is, as a genuine branch of the vine, not a pseudo-branch or branch that was never connected to the vine. Rather, Jesus pictures a branch, once a healthy part of the vine, that subsequently withered. Once withered, it falls off the vine and is thrown in the fire.)

****The burning of non‑abiding branches and it’s only in one verse, so look at it. Verse 64 **“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” ******First of all, notice that the branch that doesn’t abide, the Judas branch, is a non‑believing, false disciple. It’s cast forth. He has no living connection with Jesus Christ. He’s not real, so he’s thrown away. If he was for real that wouldn’t happen, you know why? John 6:37 says this: “Him that cometh unto Me I will in no wise cast out.” The true disciple is never cast out. This one’s cast forth it shows it never was real to begin with. Then it says not only that, he’s withered. Just shrivels up. Whatever faint glimpses of love there were are gone. He’s like that seed that was planted that sprung up for a little while on the rocky ground and then it died, withered. And then this tragic statement. Men gather them and cast them into the fire. And they are burned. This is a picture of judgment.

**Before you post in response to another poster; it helps if you are able to discern between a believer and a non-believer in the passage you are quoting; handling the word of God with accuracy is important to God and therefore should be important to you.
**

Philippians 1:3-6** "I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

God does not loose anyone who is truly saved; one that has truly believed in the only begotten Son of God; Jesus Christ. He starts the work and finishes the work…justification, sanctification to glorification…you cannot not work the salvation work; however you will, if you are a true believer, participate in the works that God preordained for the believer to walk in them.**

 

[paul_c]

I think there is some misunderstanding between the Catholics and non-Catholics about what is meant by OSAS.

If God wants you to be saved, then of course you will be saved. The question really isn’t one of predestination.

The question, more fundamentally is how you can know that you are trly one of the elect.

I think most people on this thread will agree on how the elect will act: They will do the will of God, loving God and their neighbor. Failure to do so, is an indication that you are not one of the elect, no matter what you claim about your personal faith in Jesus. Those who are truly faithful will do the will of God. Those that are truly faithful will never apostacize.

That said, you can never be truly sure of your status until you die, because there is always that chance that you will lose your way, thus demonstrating that you were never one of the elect. You can (and should) be hopeful that you will stay the course but judging yourself saved is arrogant and unscriptural. Even St. Paul did not dare judge himself. That is God’s job.

So while the elect may indeed,be once saved, always saved, you just will not know if you are the elect until you die.

Do any of you disagree with this?

 

[DeRonde]

I think there is some misunderstanding between the Catholics and non-Catholics about what is meant by OSAS.

If God wants you to be saved, then of course you will be saved. The question really isn’t one of predestination.

The question, more fundamentally is how you can know that you are trly one of the elect.

I think most people on this thread will agree on how the elect will act: They will do the will of God, loving God and their neighbor. Failure to do so, is an indication that you are not one of the elect, no matter what you claim about your personal faith in Jesus. Those who are truly faithful will do the will of God. Those that are truly faithful will never apostacize.

That said, you can never be truly sure of your status until you die, because there is always that chance that you will lose your way, thus demonstrating that you were never one of the elect. You can (and should) be hopeful that you will stay the course but judging yourself saved is arrogant and unscriptural. Even St. Paul did not dare judge himself. That is God’s job.

So while the elect may indeed,be once saved, always saved, you just will not know if you are the elect until you die.

Do any of you disagree with this?

**This is not what the Bible teaches, this is what you have learned from your “Church”. The whole purpose of 1 John is summed up in 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
**

**This is a link to the post titled “Is it for real” - It is more in depth in relation to 1John and I will be presenting 11 tests of real salvation; whether it is for real or not.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=320509**

 

[Alindawyl]

This is not what the Bible teaches, this is what you have learned from your “Church”. The whole purpose of 1 John is summed up in 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

One could just as easily say that your belief is not what the Bible teaches but what you have learned from your own “church”

This highlights the core issue behind all such discussions - authority (or lack thereof).

If the Catholic Church has the authority granted by Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure that her teaching is correct, then it is correct. Any misunderstanding would be the fault of those who do not submit to her authority.

If someone else such as yourself has the authority granted by Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure that your teaching is correct, then that’s what is correct. Any misunderstanding would be the fault of those who do not submit to your authority.

It always comes back to teaching authority. Always. One would think the sheer volume of different and conflicting opinions resulting from the Reformation would be a clear indication that individual interpretation is not the route to take. There must be absolute truth in these matters. If there is no absolute truth or ability to discern absolute truth then everything is subjective. If everything is subjective then everything is opinion, making everyone right, making no one right.

 

[DeRonde]

One could just as easily say that your belief is not what the Bible teaches but what you have learned from your own “church”

This highlights the core issue behind all such discussions - authority (or lack thereof).

If the Catholic Church has the authority granted by Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure that her teaching is correct, then it is correct. Any misunderstanding would be the fault of those who do not submit to her authority.

If someone else such as yourself has the authority granted by Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure that your teaching is correct, then that’s what is correct. Any misunderstanding would be the fault of those who do not submit to your authority.

It always comes back to teaching authority. Always. One would think the sheer volume of different and conflicting opinions resulting from the Reformation would be a clear indication that individual interpretation is not the route to take. There must be absolute truth in these matters. If there is no absolute truth or ability to discern absolute truth then everything is subjective. If everything is subjective then everything is opinion, making everyone right, making no one right.

You obviously understand nothing about teaching authority. Where does teaching authority, concerning the things of God, come from? What does the Bible say? Who is the believers resident teacher? Have you bought into some unbiblical teaching? You just disputed what the Holy Spirit said via John in 1 John; what part of **“you may know that you have eternal life”**do you not believe or understand? There is nowhere in Scripture where God gave an institution the Holy Spirit; perhaps you could show where I error.

 

[allischalmers]

Mr Alindawy

Does the Church have the authority to ognore what the Bible says. 1 John 5 13 is very clear in what it says. It is not hard to understand even for a child. Also you have not addressed the problem, you just run on about the Catholic Church and who has the authority to teach

 

[Always_For_Him]

I am going to make this short,

I am sick and tried of people saying that those people that believe OSAS think it gives them a license to sin. That is not true at all. In fact it is a lie, pure and simple. It contradicts every thing that the Bible teaches and everything that the Christain life is about.

It is wonderful to read that you don’t believe that OSAS gives us a license to sin. BUT, people do believe that. It is mind boggling to think that ANYONE could think that since they are saved, they can do what they want and not persevere to the end. Many ignore a lot of Scripture to come to that conclusion. I have been reading many threads and personally hear non-Catholics teach that OSAS means nothing we can do will cost us our salvation. That is false, teaching of man.

 

[bradwill911]

Mr Alindawy

Does the Church have the authority to ognore what the Bible says. 1 John 5 13 is very clear in what it says. It is not hard to understand even for a child. Also you have not addressed the problem, you just run on about the Catholic Church and who has the authority to teach

I am not a theologian, but I take 1 John 5:13 to mean that one can be assured of his salvation at certain points in time, but not always and forever. One still has the freedom to commit grave sins that could make one subject to the loss of his salvation.

OSAS takes away our free will, which I don’t believe happens. We are always free to reject His grace and mercy.

Hypothetically, take the Christian who is “saved” and is living out his faith. Let’s assume that he knows he is saved. He goes about his day, says his prayers, gives thanks to God for all His blessings. He goes to work like normal and heads home at the end of his day, sings along with good, Christian music on the way home. As he gets home, he returns to find his wife in bed with his neighbor. He is angered, gets his gun, kills his wife, his neighbor, and himself. Is he saved? I would imagine that you would say that he was never saved to begin with and so his assurance of salvation was false. What if he had died 2 minutes earlier when someone ran a red light and hit him head on? Would he then be saved? What if he had done these horrible acts to his wife and neighbor, but rather than killing himself, he turned himself in and later confessed these sins to God. Does his assurance of salvation restart at this point? Did he lose it and then receive it again or did he never have it in the first place? Does he have it now? What if he slips up again? How many times can he slip up? Seven times? How about seventy times seven?

 

[Always_For_Him]

Mr Alindawy

Does the Church have the authority to ognore what the Bible says. 1 John 5 13 is very clear in what it says. It is not hard to understand even for a child. Also you have not addressed the problem, you just run on about the Catholic Church and who has the authority to teach

The CHURCH wrote the Bible. ALL New Testament writings ARE Catholic teaching written down! Jesus Truth was taught orally for centuries BEFORE it was written down into what we today know as the Bible. It took centuries to gather all of the writings from the different locations, put them together, weigh ALL of them against what the Church knew as the complete, fullness of Christ’s Deposit of Faith. The Deposit of Faith isn’t all just Word, it is actions - Sacred Tradition too. Oral Tradition and Sacred Tradition CANNOT be separated. It IS what is written about in the Bible by the Catholic Church. To separate the Bible from the Catholic Church who wrote it down in contextual understanding, to personally interpret it for yourself, then teach that as truth, will result in error and errant teaching, and that is exactly what has happened to those churches that split from Christ’s Church during the reformation. That is MAN, OF MAN, BY MAN, NOT Apostolic.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You obviously understand nothing about teaching authority. Where does teaching authority, concerning the things of God, come from? What does the Bible say? Who is the believers resident teacher? Have you bought into some unbiblical teaching? You just disputed what the Holy Spirit said via John in 1 John; what part of **“you may know that you have eternal life”**do you not believe or understand? There is nowhere in Scripture where God gave an institution the Holy Spirit; perhaps you could show where I error.

Here you are again DeRonde pontificating yet again as if you are the infallable teacher of scripture. You should look to the last verse - that’s the bottom line so to speak on it all:

1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

Are you making an idol of yourself and self worshiping? I don’t remember any one appointing you the Custos Morum to declare who is disputing the Holy Spirit? All I hear is YOU disputing in here. Surely, you are not going to claim you are He are you???
James

 

[Alindawyl]

You obviously understand nothing about teaching authority. Where does teaching authority, concerning the things of God, come from? What does the Bible say? Who is the believers resident teacher? Have you bought into some unbiblical teaching? You just disputed what the Holy Spirit said via John in 1 John; what part of **“you may know that you have eternal life”**do you not believe or understand? There is nowhere in Scripture where God gave an institution the Holy Spirit; perhaps you could show where I error.

The teaching authority of the Catholic Church comes from Jesus. You err in claiming teaching authority for yourself without presenting credentials. It goes far beyond any one passage in the Bible. Your entire basis of understanding the Bible is flawed to at least some degree when you remove it from apostolic tradition.

I have no authority of my own and freely admit it. I merely point to the Catholic Church and trust in what she has to say.

What makes your interpretation of Scripture any more trustworthy than Pastor Joe at whatever Church of the Unending Schism will crop up this week on the street corner of some random city, claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit in proclaiming the “true” Word of God? Why should we trust you over anyone else with a Bible in hand and the ability to read?