I could use some help/prayers

[Alindawyl]

Mr Alindawy

Does the Church have the authority to ognore what the Bible says. 1 John 5 13 is very clear in what it says. It is not hard to understand even for a child. Also you have not addressed the problem, you just run on about the Catholic Church and who has the authority to teach

If the Bible is very clear in what it says, then why are there thousands of Christian denominations all based on the Bible? They can’t all be right, as they teach mutually exclusive things.

Authority to teach is the heart of the problem. You claim the authority to teach, yet you don’t explain WHY you are more worthy of our trust than Holy Mother Church. Do you have apostolic tradition supporting your interpretation? Do you have the assurance of Jesus that the gates of hell won’t prevail against you? Do you have ANYTHING to offer in favor of your own personal teaching authority other than an unsupported claim that you’re right and we’re wrong?

I don’t base my faith on one Bible verse or even a handful of verses. I base my faith in Jesus on trust in the Church. Not a person or a group of people within the Church, but the teaching authority of the Church as a whole. St. Augustine said it best when he said he would not believe the Gospels if it wasn’t for the authority of the Catholic Church. Without that authority, the Bible is just another book of what may or may not be inspired writings.

So I say again, from whence do you derive your authority?

 

[bradwill911]

If the Bible is very clear in what it says, then why are there thousands of Christian denominations all based on the Bible?

One could also ask that if the Holy Spirit was leading one to the truth, why so many Christian denominations (38,000+)?

 

[Seeking12]

I am not a theologian, but I take 1 John 5:13 to mean that one can be assured of his salvation at certain points in time, but not always and forever. One still has the freedom to commit grave sins that could make one subject to the loss of his salvation.

OSAS takes away our free will, which I don’t believe happens. We are always free to reject His grace and mercy.

Hypothetically, take the Christian who is “saved” and is living out his faith. Let’s assume that he knows he is saved. He goes about his day, says his prayers, gives thanks to God for all His blessings. He goes to work like normal and heads home at the end of his day, sings along with good, Christian music on the way home. As he gets home, he returns to find his wife in bed with his neighbor. He is angered, gets his gun, kills his wife, his neighbor, and himself. Is he saved? I would imagine that you would say that he was never saved to begin with and so his assurance of salvation was false. What if he had died 2 minutes earlier when someone ran a red light and hit him head on? Would he then be saved? What if he had done these horrible acts to his wife and neighbor, but rather than killing himself, he turned himself in and later confessed these sins to God. Does his assurance of salvation restart at this point? Did he lose it and then receive it again or did he never have it in the first place? Does he have it now? What if he slips up again? How many times can he slip up? Seven times? How about seventy times seven?

You misunderstand what 1 john 5 states because you have bought into something other than the clear teaching of Scripture. Your scenario shows your ignorance concerning what it means to be saved; if you don’t know what it means to be saved, then you are probably not. Being associated with a particular religion will not save and has never saved; otherwise all the Jews would be saved.

 

[Seeking12]

One could also ask that if the Holy Spirit was leading one to the truth, why so many Christian denominations (38,000+)?

****Why is their division within the Catholic Church? Means nothing. Try again. ****

 

[bradwill911]

You misunderstand what 1 john 5 states because you have bought into something other than the clear teaching of Scripture. Your scenario shows your ignorance concerning what it means to be saved; if you don’t know what it means to be saved, then you are probably not. Being associated with a particular religion will not save and has never saved; otherwise all the Jews would be saved.

As if you know anything about me

If you really think that Catholics believe they are saved because they belong to the Roman Catholic Church, it truly speaks volumes about who is really ignorant. I’ve studied Scripture from within the Church, but I also spent over 15 years as a “saved Christian”. So, please spare me the typical non-Catholic answer and actually reply to what I asked.

 

[bradwill911]

****Why is their division within the Catholic Church? Means nothing. Try again. ****

This is really your answer? Are their really 38,000 different versions of the Roman Catholic Church? You called me ignorant?

Again, you fail to answer any question. Peace.

 

[Seeking12]

The CHURCH wrote the Bible. ALL New Testament writings ARE Catholic teaching written down! Jesus Truth was taught orally for centuries BEFORE it was written down into what we today know as the Bible. It took centuries to gather all of the writings from the different locations, put them together, weigh ALL of them against what the Church knew as the complete, fullness of Christ’s Deposit of Faith. The Deposit of Faith isn’t all just Word, it is actions - Sacred Tradition too. Oral Tradition and Sacred Tradition CANNOT be separated. It IS what is written about in the Bible by the Catholic Church. To separate the Bible from the Catholic Church who wrote it down in contextual understanding, to personally interpret it for yourself, then teach that as truth, will result in error and errant teaching, and that is exactly what has happened to those churches that split from Christ’s Church during the reformation. That is MAN, OF MAN, BY MAN, NOT Apostolic.

Are AlwaysForHim or AlwaysFortheCatholicChurch? By your post it seems the latter. Which Bible came from the Catholic Church? The Catholic bible. However; the fully inspired Bible, which there were many authors; the chief being the Holy Spirit, has no uninspired books in it. The church that I belong to; the church that began on the day of Pentecost; had no priests, no Pope, no altar, no sacrifice, no fancy dress, no fancy rituals and no hierarchy. Does your church look at all like the original? Mine does

 

[Seeking12]

This is really your answer? Are their really 38,000 different versions of the Roman Catholic Church? You called me ignorant?

Again, you fail to answer any question. Peace.

Ignorant means “not knowing”; it is actually curable. Who said their were 38K divisions within the Catholic Church? I didn’t; perhaps you meant another poster? As I said it means nothing; why? Being a Christian has nothing to do with denomination for Jesus is not a respecter of persons, much less a denomination. So you can boast in your religion and in the end that is what you will have to boast in.

 

[Seeking12]

It is wonderful to read that you don’t believe that OSAS gives us a license to sin. BUT, people do believe that. It is mind boggling to think that ANYONE could think that since they are saved, they can do what they want and not persevere to the end. Many ignore a lot of Scripture to come to that conclusion. I have been reading many threads and personally hear non-Catholics teach that OSAS means nothing we can do will cost us our salvation. That is false, teaching of man.

I’ve yet to see anyone that was non-catholic say that OSAS is a license to sin; Paul addresses that in Romans. If someone saves they understand OSAS and think it gives them a license to sin, then they are deceived and the truth is not in them.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You misunderstand what 1 john 5 states because you have bought into something other than the clear teaching of Scripture. Your scenario shows your ignorance concerning what it means to be saved; if you don’t know what it means to be saved, then you are probably not. Being associated with a particular religion will not save and has never saved; otherwise all the Jews would be saved.

Well gosh Seeking12 is it a Christian virtue of “the elect” to mock those that are not so fortunate to be born of the right parents and are predestined to hell and are just trying to have a little peace of mind fantasizing about being one of “the elect”; and maybe getting a final “last meal” before execution and eternal hell? Or must the unelect/damned start suffering their hell here on earth early so the elect can gloat over them and feel self-righteous? Has gloating over the unelect become a new rite of justification/sanctification?

Hmmm… I just wonder if God is going to turn the tables around again and do like He did with the Jews when they got too cocky in their presumption of birth-right elect status and give grace to the new underdogs - the unelect?

Wait… that would make them “elect” then that would go circular on itself all over again… ouch! My brain hurts…

James

 

[Always_For_Him]

Are AlwaysForHim or AlwaysFortheCatholicChurch? By your post it seems the latter. Which Bible came from the Catholic Church? The Catholic bible. However; the fully inspired Bible, which there were many authors; the chief being the Holy Spirit. The church that I belong to; the church that began on the day of Pentecost; had no priests, no Pope, no altar, no sacrifice, no fancy dress, no fancy rituals and no hierarchy. Does your church look at all like the original? Mine does

I am always for Christ’s Church, not some church founded by man over 1,500 years later to teach/further his own ideology. The Bible that Luther and the other reformers took, made changes to, omitted books from and errantly personally interpret IS the Bible written by the Catholic Church - the original Bible, even Luther gives the Catholic Church the credit. Christ’s Church didn’t just start one day with everything in place. The primary goal at the time of Pentecost was Jesus’s command to go forth and teach all nations and baptize in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. When MAN founds a church, he does it the way he wants it with heirarchy in place. The Catholic Church IS the original Church that wrote the Bible. History supports my claim. I don’t know what church you belong to, but if it is not the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church founded by Christ, then your church was founded by man, took OUR Bible, made changes to it, re-wrote it to suit it’s own doctrine and teaches error. Your church IS NOT the Church founded by Christ. The Catholic Church is the only Church that can trace her roots all the way back to the Apostles by age, by teaching and tradition and on paper.

You are blinded by generation after generation of errant teaching that long ago was separated away from Apostolic Truth.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I’ve yet to see anyone that was non-catholic say that OSAS is a license to sin; Paul addresses that in Romans. If someone saves they understand OSAS and think it gives them a license to sin, then they are deceived and the truth is not in them.

You may have not, but I have. Just because you don’t know it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Are AlwaysForHim or AlwaysFortheCatholicChurch? By your post it seems the latter. Which Bible came from the Catholic Church? The Catholic bible. However; the fully inspired Bible, which there were many authors; the chief being the Holy Spirit, has no uninspired books in it. The church that I belong to; the church that began on the day of Pentecost; had no priests, no Pope, no altar, no sacrifice, no fancy dress, no fancy rituals and no hierarchy. Does your church look at all like the original? Mine does

So your church is like the Catholic Church where the “upper room” had the Table of The Lord which the bread was broken and the wine was given to the disciples and Christ cleansed them of their small sins with the ritual foot washing? Do you know what Jesus was wearing? Does your church offer a consecrated bread and wine according to the priestly order of Melchezdek like Christ did? What bible did the apostles have? I don’t think it was KJV sans the deuterocanonicals that Jesus and the apostles quoted from memory.

Or do you mean that your church looks more like the Christian Church when they had to conduct services among the dead in the catacombs under candlelight?

James

 

[SteveGC]

Well gosh Seeking12 is it a Christian virtue of “the elect” to mock those that are not so fortunate to be born of the right parents and are predestined to hell and are just trying to have a little peace of mind fantasizing about being one of “the elect”; and maybe getting a final “last meal” before execution and eternal hell? Or must the unelect/damned start suffering their hell here on earth early so the elect can gloat over them and feel self-righteous? Has gloating over the unelect become a new rite of justification/sanctification?

Hmmm… I just wonder if God is going to turn the tables around again and do like He did with the Jews when they got too cocky in their presumption of birth-right elect status and give grace to the new underdogs - the unelect?

Wait… that would make them “elect” then that would go circular on itself all over again… ouch! My brain hurts…

James

Amen, James. I so frequently wonder why the ELECT even hang out with us. It doesn’t make any difference, does it? I mean…I don’t have absolute assurance I’m saved. Nor do any of the ones he’s trying to debate with. So, by definition, our destiny is set, and it’s not where they’re going. So, what on earth are they doing even TALKING about faith?? We can’t be evangelized if we’re not the ELECT. Or am I missing something?

Why aren’t they busy packing their bags for their eternal paradise, instead of lurking around all us Non-Elect, pitying us on our misfortunate lot in life?

 

[SteveGC]

So your church is like the Catholic Church where the “upper room” had the Table of The Lord which the bread was broken and the wine was given to the disciples and Christ cleansed them of their small sins with the ritual foot washing? Do you know what Jesus was wearing? Does your church offer a consecrated bread and wine according to the priestly order of Melchezdek like Christ did? What bible did the apostles have? I don’t think it was KJV sans the deuterocanonicals that Jesus and the apostles quoted from memory.

Or do you mean that your church looks more like the Christian Church when they had to conduct services among the dead in the catacombs under candlelight?

James

He’d probably just claim it’s invisible, like the “original”. It doesn’t have to look like anything, because invisible looks like everything…oh, except the Catholic Church of course.

 

[SteveGC]

****Why is their division within the Catholic Church? Means nothing. Try again. ****

Division = disagreement on matters of faith and morals

Catholic Church…0

Protestant ecclesial communities…Too numerous to count

 

[DeRonde]

I am always for Christ’s Church, not some church founded by man over 1,500 years later to teach/further his own ideology. The Bible that Luther and the other reformers took, made changes to, omitted books from and errantly personally interpret IS the Bible written by the Catholic Church - the original Bible, even Luther gives the Catholic Church the credit. Christ’s Church didn’t just start one day with everything in place. The primary goal at the time of Pentecost was Jesus’s command to go forth and teach all nations and baptize in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. When MAN founds a church, he does it the way he wants it with heirarchy in place. The Catholic Church IS the original Church that wrote the Bible. History supports my claim. I don’t know what church you belong to, but if it is not the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church founded by Christ, then your church was founded by man, took OUR Bible, made changes to it, re-wrote it to suit it’s own doctrine and teaches error. Your church IS NOT the Church founded by Christ. The Catholic Church is the only Church that can trace her roots all the way back to the Apostles by age, by teaching and tradition and on paper.

You are blinded by generation after generation of errant teaching that long ago was separated away from Apostolic Truth.

I guess the reason it took 1500 years for the “Church” to finalize the Catholic bible, was an effort to propagate the role of purgatory, indulgence and praying to the dead in rebellion towards the reformers…kind a fishy. Especially since the writer of 2 Maccabees explicitly states the writing is NOT inspired; isn’t that one of the tests of deciding a cannon? Yes. Other books your Church included had geographical and historic errors; another indication that some of the additions were not inspired. It begs the question as to why? The answer to that question should be obvious, but I doubt you can actually see it for exactly for what it is.

 

[DeRonde]

Division = disagreement on matters of faith and morals

Catholic Church…0

Protestant ecclesial communities…Too numerous to count

Steve; who are you kidding, there is a whole body of Catholics that reject Vatican II; as an example.

 

[SHW]

I’ve yet to see anyone that was non-catholic say that OSAS is a license to sin; Paul addresses that in Romans. If someone saves they understand OSAS and think it gives them a license to sin, then they are deceived and the truth is not in them.

I’ve yet to find an OSAS person admit that by sinning (disobeying God’s commandments), that they can lose their OSAS status. How can the “truth” be in them if they disobey God’s commandments?

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

What happens to all liars?

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

This damnation includes all OSAS Christians who prove to be liars because they did not obey God’s commandments.

Pax,
SHW

 

[DeRonde]

He’d probably just claim it’s invisible, like the “original”. It doesn’t have to look like anything, because invisible looks like everything…oh, except the Catholic Church of course.

Did Jesus slice pieces of Himself and drain some of His blood at the last supper? Why not?
Tell me what part of the original church looks like the Roman Catholic Church? priests? No, altar? no, flashy dress? flashy rituals? no confessional booth? no, sacrifice? no Direct access to the leaders? yes Hierarchy? no Tell me again, what part of the Catholic Church looks like the church of Jesus Christ?