I could use some help/prayers

[paul_c]

It is correct; unless you can show me otherwise, but I don’t think the Holy Spirit misguided me.

How can you be so sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you? By looking at your 11 tests? Isn’t that circular logic. " I know the Holy spirit is guiding me because I passed the 11 tests that the Holy spirit told me were the tests to see if the Holy spirit was guiding me."

Test #1 Have You Enjoyed Fellowship with Christ and the Father?
Test #2 Are You Sensitive to Sin?
#3 Test - Do You Obey God’s Word?
#4 Test - Do You Reject This Evil World?
#5 Test - Do You Eagerly Await Christ’s Return?
#6 Test - Do You See a Decreasing Pattern of Sin in Your Life?
#7 Test - Do You Love Other Christians?
#8 Test - Do You Experience Answered Prayer?
#9 Test - Do You Experience the Ministry of the Holy Spirit?
#10 Test - Can You Discern between Spiritual Truth and Error?
#11 Final Test - Have You Suffered Rejection Because of Your Faith?

There are many problems with these tests. The first of them is the most basic. Who are we to judge? That is not our job. Our job is to do the will of God and let God judge us. This whole thing wreaks of a need for self assurance. If you have faith in God, you don’t need it.

And let’s look at the questions themselves… #7Why love only Christians? We are called to love indescriminately, even our enemies. #8Why do you need your prayers to be answered? All prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is no. The #10 test is laughable in that for you, spiritual truth is what you interpret it to be. And when you interpret it (name removed by moderator)roperly, you suffer rejection, which satisfies #11. In #9, you recognize that God won’t tell you that " your a christian", yet in in #1, you say you will feel the presence of God.

Look, you wouldn’t need to worry so much about whether you were actually following Jesus, if you would just do what the Catholic Church recommends. Get baptized, Do the will of God, demonstrating your faith through your love, and go to the sacrament of Reconciliation when you fail the test and sin. The church will not steer you wrong and you won’t have to worry each day whether you are on the right path. You need to have faith in something bigger than yourself. You think you are following Jesus, but actually you are following what you think Jesus should be, grasping at verses of the Bible to try to justify your beliefs. God send Jesus to show us the way and he gave us the visible Catholic Church to convey his will in tangible, human terms. Trust in that, instead of in yourself.

 

[DeRonde]

How can you be so sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you? By looking at your 11 tests? Isn’t that circular logic. " I know the Holy spirit is guiding me because I passed the 11 tests that the Holy spirit told me were the tests to see if the Holy spirit was guiding me."

Test #1 Have You Enjoyed Fellowship with Christ and the Father?
Test #2 Are You Sensitive to Sin?
#3 Test - Do You Obey God’s Word?
#4 Test - Do You Reject This Evil World?
#5 Test - Do You Eagerly Await Christ’s Return?
#6 Test - Do You See a Decreasing Pattern of Sin in Your Life?
#7 Test - Do You Love Other Christians?
#8 Test - Do You Experience Answered Prayer?
#9 Test - Do You Experience the Ministry of the Holy Spirit?
#10 Test - Can You Discern between Spiritual Truth and Error?
#11 Final Test - Have You Suffered Rejection Because of Your Faith?

There are many problems with these tests. The first of them is the most basic. Who are we to judge? That is not our job. Our job is to do the will of God and let God judge us. This whole thing wreaks of a need for self assurance. If you have faith in God, you don’t need it.

And let’s look at the questions themselves… #7Why love only Christians? We are called to love indescriminately, even our enemies. #8Why do you need your prayers to be answered? All prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is no. The #10 test is laughable in that for you, spiritual truth is what you interpret it to be. And when you interpret it (name removed by moderator)roperly, you suffer rejection, which satisfies #11. In #9, you recognize that God won’t tell you that " your a christian", yet in in #1, you say you will feel the presence of God.

Look, you wouldn’t need to worry so much about whether you were actually following Jesus, if you would just do what the Catholic Church recommends. Get baptized, Do the will of God, demonstrating your faith through your love, and go to the sacrament of Reconciliation when you fail the test and sin. The church will not steer you wrong and you won’t have to worry each day whether you are on the right path. You need to have faith in something bigger than yourself. You think you are following Jesus, but actually you are following what you think Jesus should be, grasping at verses of the Bible to try to justify your beliefs. God send Jesus to show us the way and he gave us the visible Catholic Church to convey his will in tangible, human terms. Trust in that, instead of in yourself.

**
This comes from 1 John; so let God be the judge as He already is and the fact that you cannot see this shows you do not pass one of the most important tests, #10. If you don’t pass #10, then #1 and #9 won’t apply either.

Do you know what the will of God is according to the Bible? I would say you do not; but hope I would be wrong. As I said in the post; this is not really for Catholics, but are welcome to join in. I have so far heard from one child of God on that post and the rest was “hate” posts.

The real issue here is that you have no idea whether you are saved or not and so you hope that by being a good Catholic, that you will get there, but you’re not even sure of that because sometimes you are not that “good” Catholic, but reason in your mind that God can’t send me to hell; I did what I though He wanted and tried my best…that could be a serious miscalculation. You are not the only here that is that way; I would say from what I’ve seen here most of you feel that way if they were to admit the truth from their heart of hearts…but it doesn’t have to be that way.**

 

[paul_c]

**
This comes from 1 John; so let God be the judge as He already is and the fact that you cannot see this shows you do not pass one of the most important tests, #10. If you don’t pass #10, then #1 and #9 won’t apply either.

Do you know what the will of God is according to the Bible? I would say you do not; but hope I would be wrong. As I said in the post; this is not really for Catholics, but are welcome to join in. I have so far heard from one child of God on that post and the rest was “hate” posts.

The real issue here is that you have no idea whether you are saved or not and so you hope that by being a good Catholic, that you will get there, but you’re not even sure of that because sometimes you are not that “good” Catholic, but reason in your mind that God can’t send me to hell; I did what I though He wanted and tried my best…that could be a serious miscalculation. You are not the only here that is that way; I would say from what I’ve seen here most of you feel that way if they were to admit the truth from their heart of hearts…but it doesn’t have to be that way.**

You would be mistaken, mostly because you don’t really understand Catholics at all. If you would open up a little to at least listen, you might learn. Catholics don’t worry themselves about wondering whether they are saved. Its just the way it is. We don’t judge ourselves. We simply try to do the best we can to do God’s will and when we fail, we go to confession and start anew.

You on the other hand, seem completely preoccuppied with proving you are saved. I am having conversations with several Protestants simultaneously on separate threads and I’m starting to understand that Protestants are really, really worried about their salvation and trying to guarantee themselves a spot in heaven. Several have said that the lack of assurance of heaven is one of the things that keeps them out of the Catholic Church.

Well I have two things to say to that, my friend. The first is they can say what they want, but no one but God can guarantee you a space in heaven. The second is stop worrying about yourselves. Try loving others and loving God, instead of loving yourselves. That is the “secret” to the kingdom of heaven. It seems funny to call the "Great Commandment"a secret, yet it is lost on so many… It’s when you lose yourself in service to others that you are made most complete and most holy and therefore worthy of the kingdom of heaven. Too bad you don’t have Saints to emulate, like Mother Teresa, to bring that point home.

 

[DeRonde]

Please answer the man’s request if you’re going to bother to respond. These forums are full of Catholics who are quite knowledgeable about sola scriptura, sola fide, or anything else you may care to mention. There’s no need to play games or predict what you think “most Catholics here” will do. Disagreement over the validity of sola scriptura or how non-Catholics usually present sola fide doesn’t mean we don’t understand what they are.

Sola scriptura - the Bible, as the written Word of God, is the only infallible/inerrant (exact word differs depending on the denomination) authority for the Christian faith, containing all knowledge necessary for salvation.

Here is a brief overview of why sola scriptura is a faulty concept.

Sola fide - we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Catholics add that we do good works out of our love for Jesus, as a visible sign of our acceptance of his freely-offered grace and our submission to his will. Protestants add… the same thing. Different words are usually used, for a variety of reasons. The two most common reasons are:

To claim the Church teaches we can “earn” our salvation through works. It’s a completely false claim as the Church has never taught this.

To claim we can’t refuse the gift of God’s grace once it’s been offered to us. That’s a different, albeit related, topic (OSAS/predestination).

Petty quibbles over wording aside, we both say pretty much the same thing. I mean, are there any Protestants who believe when they say salvation is by faith “alone” that it doesn’t include turning away from sin and following the commandments of Jesus? It’s only an issue because some people want to make it one.

You are close on Sola Scriptura, but you lack understanding of your own faith or left out a minor detail as you noted in Sola Fide “you do good works to add saving grace” and to make up for sin…speaking of Catholics.

 

[DeRonde]

You would be mistaken, mostly because you don’t really understand Catholics at all. If you would open up a little to at least listen, you might learn. Catholics don’t worry themselves about wondering whether they are saved. Its just the way it is. We don’t judge ourselves. We simply try to do the best we can to do God’s will and when we fail, we go to confession and start anew.

You on the other hand, seem completely preoccuppied with proving you are saved. I am having conversations with several Protestants simultaneously on separate threads and I’m starting to understand that Protestants are really, really worried about their salvation and trying to guarantee themselves a spot in heaven. Several have said that the lack of assurance of heaven is one of the things that keeps them out of the Catholic Church.

Well I have two things to say to that, my friend. The first is they can say what they want, but no one but God can guarantee you a space in heaven. The second is stop worrying about yourselves. Try loving others and loving God, instead of loving yourselves. That is the “secret” to the kingdom of heaven. It seems funny to call the "Great Commandment"a secret, yet it is lost on so many… It’s when you lose yourself in service to others that you are made most complete and most holy and therefore worthy of the kingdom of heaven. Too bad you don’t have Saints to emulate, like Mother Teresa, to bring that point home.

**First, you are mistaken; I have no preoccupation with being saved; I already have that assurance. I am extremely grateful to God for this; for I deserve nothing from Him.

Second, you proved my point by stating “We simply try to do the best we can to do God’s will”. which brings me back to something you did not answer, do you know what God’s will is for you? It is not hidden in Scripture.

Third, you exaggerate the truth concerning you said “Several have said that the lack of assurance of heaven”…referring to Protestants you have spoken with. Maybe one person said something of that nature.

I do not expect to see Mother Teresa in heaven; she even had doubts about it herself. I’m sure you think how could someone like her not be in heaven; it gets back to what you believe concerning the person and work of Christ; good works do not save a person, but they will be an indication of a regenerate heart.**

 

[paul_c]

**First, you are mistaken; I have no preoccupation with being saved; I already have that assurance. I am extremely grateful to God for this; for I deserve nothing from Him.

Second, you proved my point by stating “We simply try to do the best we can to do God’s will”. which brings me back to something you did not answer, do you know what God’s will is for you? It is not hidden in Scripture.

Third, you exaggerate the truth concerning you said “Several have said that the lack of assurance of heaven”…referring to Protestants you have spoken with. Maybe one person said something of that nature.

I do not expect to see Mother Teresa in heaven; she even had doubts about it herself. I’m sure you think how could someone like her not be in heaven; it gets back to what you believe concerning the person and work of Christ; good works do not save a person, but they will be an indication of a regenerate heart.**

1. I hope you don’t become complacent since you feel you are assured of a heavenly reward, even though at some point you could apostacize.
2. God’s will for us it so love him and our neighbor in every circumstance we find ourselves in . We know our responsibility is to love. However, we don’t know what situations lie ahead of us to test us and we don’t know for certain how we will react under those circumstances. We can not read the future, but we know our responsibility to love is there whatever the future holds for us.
3. Why do you speak for me or doubt what I say? I do not exaggerate. Several Protestants in the last 24 hours have broached the concern of assurance of salvation. You deny being concerned about it, but you published a very long series of posts to describe why you beleive you are saved. Actions speak louder than words.
4. It is very interesting that you judge yourself more fit for the Kingdom of Heaven than Mother Teresa, who spent her whole life in service to God and her neighbor, laboring with the poorest of the poor. And if you read her letters, what she experienced was the “Dark Night of the Soul” first described by Saint John of the Cross, one of the Doctors of the church. After iniitally having specific visions from Jesus Christ to start her ministry, she was forced to continue on out of pure love without feeling the presence of God. This was a severe test because it meant she was doing her mission out of love for God without experiencing his love back. Only the greatest saints experience this because the test is so demanding. Jesus himself experienced this on the cross, when he cried out " My God, My God, why have abandonned me."

You need to open your eyes, so you can hear and to not harden your heart to the truth.

 

[DeRonde]

1. I hope you don’t become complacent since you feel you are assured of a heavenly reward, even though at some point you could apostacize. **That would be impossible; for it is God that holds the believer, not the believer.
   **
2. God’s will for us it so love him and our neighbor in every circumstance we find ourselves in . We know our responsibility is to love. However, we don’t know what situations lie ahead of us to test us and we don’t know for certain how we will react under those circumstances. We can not read the future, but we know our responsibility to love is there whatever the future holds for us. That is a command; different than knowing God’s will for your life. As I said before it is not hidden; the first will of God for your life is that you be saved. God’s will is that you be saved - delivered from sin and death and judgment and Hell. That’s what the word saved means - that you be rescued from eternal damnation, eternal punishment. God’s will is that you be saved. 1 Timothy chapter 2 verse 3, “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
3. Why do you speak for me or doubt what I say? I do not exaggerate. Several Protestants in the last 24 hours have broached the concern of assurance of salvation. You deny being concerned about it, but you published a very long series of posts to describe why you beleive you are saved. Actions speak louder than words. **This was to help others who do have doubts when perhaps they should not…nothing more and nothing less. **
4. It is very interesting that you judge yourself more fit for the Kingdom of Heaven than Mother Teresa, who spent her whole life in service to God and her neighbor, laboring with the poorest of the poor. And if you read her letters, what she experienced was the “Dark Night of the Soul” first described by Saint John of the Cross, one of the Doctors of the church. After iniitally having specific visions from Jesus Christ to start her ministry, she was forced to continue on out of pure love without feeling the presence of God. This was a severe test because it meant she was doing her mission out of love for God without experiencing his love back. Only the greatest saints experience this because the test is so demanding. Jesus himself experienced this on the cross, when he cried out " My God, My God, why have abandoned me."

**You mistakenly base it on works because that is what you are taught; but looking at her soteriology, the theological doctrine of salvation as effected by Jesus, which was a works and faith based salvation, which denies the finished work of Christ on the cross, this is another gospel. **

You need to open your eyes, so you can hear and to not harden your heart to the truth.
I can and do say the same to you.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c

1. I hope you don’t become complacent since you feel you are assured of a heavenly reward, even though at some point you could apostacize

Sure, God knows who will be saved and that person can’t be taken from him. But YOU don’t know it if you are one of the elect. You might think you are one of the elect, but you DO NOT know, your test not withstanding.

DeRonde:

Paul c:

1. God’s will for us it so love him and our neighbor in every circumstance we find ourselves in . We know our responsibility is to love. However, we don’t know what situations lie ahead of us to test us and we don’t know for certain how we will react under those circumstances. We can not read the future, but we know our responsibility to love is there whatever the future holds for us.

That is a command; different than knowing God’s will for your life. As I said before it is not hidden; the first will of God for your life is that you be saved. God’s will is that you be saved - delivered from sin and death and judgment and Hell. That’s what the word saved means - that you be rescued from eternal damnation, eternal punishment. God’s will is that you be saved. 1 Timothy chapter 2 verse 3, “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

God’s will is for us to love each other and God. Being saved is the reward for those that do. Surely you don’t believe that all men will be saved, do you?

DeRonde:

paul c:

1. Why do you speak for me or doubt what I say? I do not exaggerate. Several Protestants in the last 24 hours have broached the concern of assurance of salvation. You deny being concerned about it, but you published a very long series of posts to describe why you beleive you are saved. Actions speak louder than words.

This was to help others who do have doubts when perhaps they should not…nothing more and nothing less.

I see. So you feel that this list will answer the doubts of the masses? And do they all see the same truth by which they will be measured?

DeRonde:

paul c:

1. It is very interesting that you judge yourself more fit for the Kingdom of Heaven than Mother Teresa, who spent her whole life in service to God and her neighbor, laboring with the poorest of the poor. And if you read her letters, what she experienced was the “Dark Night of the Soul” first described by Saint John of the Cross, one of the Doctors of the church. After iniitally having specific visions from Jesus Christ to start her ministry, she was forced to continue on out of pure love without feeling the presence of God. This was a severe test because it meant she was doing her mission out of love for God without experiencing his love back. Only the greatest saints experience this because the test is so demanding. Jesus himself experienced this on the cross, when he cried out " My God, My God, why have abandoned me."

You mistakenly base it on works because that is what you are taught; but looking at her soteriology, the theological doctrine of salvation as effected by Jesus, which was a works and faith based salvation, which denies the finished work of Christ on the cross, this is another gospel.

Once again we come to the rub of the matter, what are the credentials that you bring to the table that would make us believe that your Gospel is the right one? All you ever do is Say you have the right Gospel, without any support for your position whatever. You have never even attempted to do so. How do you expect us to follow you and give up th eTrue church of Christ, with nothing more than your personal assurance? We, on the other hand, can show direct linkage and continuity between what we say and what the Apostles taught the early church Fathers. In addition, we have all the acts of the Saints, big and small to validate its truthfulness. What do you have in comparison to the healing powers of Lourdes, the dancing of the Sun at Fatima, the stigmata of Padre Pio, or even the labors of Mother Teresa? If you want us to believe you, you need to demonstrate some credibility for your position, beyond your own words.

DeRonde:

paul c:

You need to open your eyes, so you can hear and to not harden your heart to the truth.

I can and do say the same to you.

Give me something to demonstrate that you are the recipient of the Truth… Right now, all we’ve gotten from you is empty words

 

[Tomster]

Sure, God knows who will be saved and that person can’t be taken from him. But YOU don’t know it if you are one of the elect. You might think you are one of the elect, but you DO NOT know, your test not withstanding.

God’s will is for us to love each other and God. Being saved is the reward for those that do. Surely you don’t believe that all men will be saved, do you?

I see. So you feel that this list will answer the doubts of the masses? And do they all see the same truth by which they will be measured?

Once again we come to the rub of the matter, what are the credentials that you bring to the table that would make us believe that your Gospel is the right one? All you ever do is Say you have the right Gospel, without any support for your position whatever. You have never even attempted to do so. How do you expect us to follow you and give up th eTrue church of Christ, with nothing more than your personal assurance? We, on the other hand, can show direct linkage and continuity between what we say and what the Apostles taught the early church Fathers. In addition, we have all the acts of the Saints, big and small to validate its truthfulness. What do you have in comparison to the healing powers of Lourdes, the dancing of the Sun at Fatima, the stigmata of Padre Pio, or even the labors of Mother Teresa? If you want us to believe you, you need to demonstrate some credibility for your position, beyond your own words.

Give me something to demonstrate that you are the recipient of the Truth… Right now, all we’ve gotten from you is empty words

On this matter the Catholic Church teaches that it is possible to know for sure if one will be saved but only through a direct illumination from the Holy Spirit. If this gentleman is absolutely sure he is guaranteed salvation perhaps he will be willing to discuss in details what this illumination was like, again, with all of the details.

I find it highly unlikely that such was the case with this individual since he really does not know the difference between redemption and salvation. If he does know the difference he should be more than willing to state it to us less fortunate ones.

 

[SteveGC]

How can you be so sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you? By looking at your 11 tests? Isn’t that circular logic. " I know the Holy spirit is guiding me because I passed the 11 tests that the Holy spirit told me were the tests to see if the Holy spirit was guiding me."

This is a very revealing argument, paul. I would be interested if DeRonde would address the circular logic of this “testing”. He replied to this post I think, but did not address why this was not circular logic. DeRonde, perhaps illuminate us?

 

[DeRonde]

Sure, God knows who will be saved and that person can’t be taken from him. But YOU don’t know it if you are one of the elect. You might think you are one of the elect, but you DO NOT know, your test not withstanding.

God’s will is for us to love each other and God. Being saved is the reward for those that do. Surely you don’t believe that all men will be saved, do you?

I see. So you feel that this list will answer the doubts of the masses? And do they all see the same truth by which they will be measured?

Once again we come to the rub of the matter, what are the credentials that you bring to the table that would make us believe that your Gospel is the right one? All you ever do is Say you have the right Gospel, without any support for your position whatever. You have never even attempted to do so. How do you expect us to follow you and give up th eTrue church of Christ, with nothing more than your personal assurance? We, on the other hand, can show direct linkage and continuity between what we say and what the Apostles taught the early church Fathers. In addition, we have all the acts of the Saints, big and small to validate its truthfulness. What do you have in comparison to the healing powers of Lourdes, the dancing of the Sun at Fatima, the stigmata of Padre Pio, or even the labors of Mother Teresa? If you want us to believe you, you need to demonstrate some credibility for your position, beyond your own words.
Give me something to demonstrate that you are the recipient of the Truth… Right now, all we’ve gotten from you is empty words

**Paul, I have told you the truth as God has revealed in His word; I cannot show my faith to you, nor can you see someone’s faith. I know what the gospel is and what God says are the requirement for salvation and I know the evidences of this in the life of a believer as God chose to reveal. I also know how to discern truth from error as God has also revealed from Scripture. As much as you cannot believe the truth; the Bible does teach that the elect can know they are saved. Why would God hide this? Makes no sense to give such a precious gift and then not let the recipient know you have even received it.

I don’t expect anyone to follow me that would be foolish to follow any man or men, know what I mean? I would hope you would follow Jesus.

Paul, a simple reading of the book of Acts and getting a picture of the early church, then looking at the Mass should reveal there is a serious disconnect between the two pictures, but blinders are blinders. Everyone will know the truth with certainty on the last day.**.

 

[Tomster]

**
Tom,

You can read the Bible all you want; but unless you are regenerate, which you have proven otherwise, you cannot understand what you read. No eternal security, not for you, but I can speak for myself and I know with certainty that my home is in heaven and I will be with the Lord; as I am already.

I read 4 of the above passages at random and to no surprise; you are totally ignorant of Scripture.Ignorance is curable; but only by the hand of God.**

BTW - Another reason I do not beleive DeRonde has received a special illumination from the Holy Spirit regarding his personal salvation is the fact that he continues to deny the many NT verses I provided for him showing that one’s salvation can be lost by a misuse of free will. The verses I provided are the words of the Holy Spirit. We all know that if unrepented, denial of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

 

[DeRonde]

This is a very revealing argument, paul. I would be interested if DeRonde would address the circular logic of this “testing”. He replied to this post I think, but did not address why this was not circular logic. DeRonde, perhaps illuminate us?

Steve, I cannot illuminate anyone; only God can do that if He so chooses. I don’t see the circular reasoning spoken of. Perhaps you can take up the argument with John?

 

[DeRonde]

BTW - Another reason I do not beleive DeRonde has received a special illumination from the Holy Spirit regarding his personal salvation is the fact that he continues to deny the many NT verses I provided for him showing that one’s salvation can be lost by a misuse of free will. The verses I provided are the words of the Holy Spirit. We all know that if unrepented, denial of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

**
It must be in proper context, which is further evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit or lack of.
Anyone can throw Scripture out there and declare it is from the Holy Spirit.

You must believe your salvation can be lost; it is the Catholic thing. To believe otherwise would be to commit the sin of presumption despite the fact that the Bible tells us we can know with certainty. i choose to believe God; what’s your choice?**

 

[paul_c]

**Paul, I have told you the truth as God has revealed in His word; I cannot show my faith to you, nor can you see someone’s faith. I know what the gospel is and what God says are the requirement for salvation and I know the evidences of this in the life of a believer as God chose to reveal. I also know how to discern truth from error as God has also revealed from Scripture. As much as you cannot believe the truth; the Bible does teach that the elect can know they are saved. Why would God hide this? Makes no sense to give such a precious gift and then not let the recipient know you have even received it.

I don’t expect anyone to follow me that would be foolish to follow any man or men, know what I mean? I would hope you would follow Jesus.

Paul, a simple reading of the book of Acts and getting a picture of the early church, then looking at the Mass should reveal there is a serious disconnect between the two pictures, but blinders are blinders. Everyone will know the truth with certainty on the last day.**.

God doesn’t hide it, the simple fact is that your destiny is not defined until your life is over. Otherwise, this would negate your free will. There are many verses that have been quoted earlier that support this.

Yes we follow Jesus. But it appears to be a different Jesus than you follow.

Tell me where the disconnect is between mass and the book of Acts.

 

[DeRonde]

God doesn’t hide it, the simple fact is that your destiny is not defined until your life is over. Otherwise, this would negate your free will. There are many verses that have been quoted earlier that support this.

Yes we follow Jesus. But it appears to be a different Jesus than you follow. Praise God for that!

Tell me where the disconnect is between mass and the book of Acts.

I would encourage you to get this CD to answer you thoughts concerning free will. It is well worth the $4.95. I have purchased many times from this site (FYI)
gospelgems.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=CS-027

See post #84 to see the disconnect.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=320895&page=6

 

[SteveGC]

**
It must be in proper context, which is further evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit or lack of.
Anyone can throw Scripture out there and declare it is from the Holy Spirit.

You must believe your salvation can be lost; it is the Catholic thing. To believe otherwise would be to commit the sin of presumption despite the fact that the Bible tells us we can know with certainty. i choose to believe God; what’s your choice?**

The irony of your testimony of belief, DeRonde, is that as much as you aspire to follow God, and proclaim as such, you actually also follow man. Let’s face it. If you were born Amish, you would most likely be here professing the Mennonite faith to us. If born of atheists, you would be here denouncing God. The point I’m making is not that our faith and destiny rests in the hands of our upbringing, for there are thankfully many many converts to authentic Christianity. But no, my point is that you were probably brought up, or somehow extensively exposed to a Calvinist faith environment, receiving teachings from humans (not your Bible at first). I don’t doubt you genuinely felt drawn to our Lord, and that your intent to follow Him is quite genuine. But I think you also liked this idea you learned from humans of “knowing you are the elect”, and being “assured of salvation”, and especially attracted to the idea of “I can teach others the truth as God has revealed it to me”.

But the bottom line is, you believe the humans who taught you. You didn’t discern your Calvinist twist on Scripture on your own with the Holy Spirit. I know you didn’t. Say you did all you want. If you are atleast honest with yourself, you will admit that your upbringing and subequent exposure to human teaching is what has substantially formed your system of belief. People fashion their faith around the teachings of humans, not books they read on their own. We all do it this way.

So if we all do it this way, then why am I criticizing your methods? Because you fail to do what most of us also must do…DISCERN THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE HUMANS WHO TAUGHT YOU. IOW, why do they deserve your trust? And I can anticipate your answer I think…

Because the Spirit of God indwelling in me (dwelling in me simply because I professed belief in Christ on ‘such-and-such’ date), validated the teaching I received from people in my life. He “spoke” to me in a spiritual way, and revealed to me I had found the “truth”, because He led me through the Scriptures (of course, to the passages the humans first showed me and interpreted for me), and verified that the meaning was as they had taught.

If I’m right about this response, except perhaps the parentheticals, I would hope you see the problem with it…again due to the fact that it relies so heavily on human teaching which in all probability was never checked for authenticity (historical succession from apostolic men).

Now, I’m going out on a limb here to be shot down by your rebuttal of my assumptions here. Have at it. But please take the time first to search yourself and the history of your faith journey thus far. Then tell us why my presumptions are wrong.

 

[DeRonde]

The irony of your testimony of belief, DeRonde, is that as much as you aspire to follow God, and proclaim as such, you actually also follow man. Let’s face it. If you were born Amish, you would most likely be here professing the Mennonite faith to us. If born of atheists, you would be here denouncing God. The point I’m making is not that our faith and destiny rests in the hands of our upbringing, for there are thankfully many many converts to authentic Christianity. But no, my point is that you were probably brought up, or somehow extensively exposed to a Calvinist faith environment, receiving teachings from humans (not your Bible at first). I don’t doubt you genuinely felt drawn to our Lord, and that your intent to follow Him is quite genuine. But I think you also liked this idea you learned from humans of “knowing you are the elect”, and being “assured of salvation”, and especially attracted to the idea of “I can teach others the truth as God has revealed it to me”.

But the bottom line is, you believe the humans who taught you. You didn’t discern your Calvinist twist on Scripture on your own with the Holy Spirit. I know you didn’t. Say you did all you want. If you are atleast honest with yourself, you will admit that your upbringing and subequent exposure to human teaching is what has substantially formed your system of belief. People fashion their faith around the teachings of humans, not books they read on their own. We all do it this way.

Actually, I was brought up in a Catholic environment, just so ya know. ** What you don’t seem to get no matter how often it is repeated is that their is only One that leads to the truth and understanding of the things of God. Without Him; their is no understanding of God.
**
So if we all do it this way, then why am I criticizing your methods? Because you fail to do what most of us also must do…DISCERN THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE HUMANS WHO TAUGHT YOU. IOW, why do they deserve your trust? And I can anticipate your answer I think… **I wouldn’t trust a thing I say or anyone else unless I can verify through Scripture; like the Bereans. It is not something that can be done lightly; it takes diligence and prayer.
**
Because the Spirit of God indwelling in me (dwelling in me simply because I professed belief in Christ on ‘such-and-such’ date), validated the teaching I received from people in my life. He “spoke” to me in a spiritual way, and revealed to me I had found the “truth”, because He led me through the Scriptures (of course, to the passages the humans first showed me and interpreted for me), and verified that the meaning was as they had taught. You lost me here; sounds like “easy believism” to me; take the Savior part but ignore the Lordship or obedience part.

If I’m right about this response, except perhaps the parentheticals, I would hope you see the problem with it…again due to the fact that it relies so heavily on human teaching which in all probability was never checked for authenticity (historical succession from apostolic men). ** If you re truly wanting to know the truth; you will find it in only one place.
**
Now, I’m going out on a limb here to be shot down by your rebuttal of my assumptions here. Have at it. But please take the time first to search yourself and the history of your faith journey thus far. Then tell us why my presumptions are wrong.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I don’t expect anyone to follow me that would be foolish to follow any man or men, know what I mean? I would hope you would follow Jesus.

DeRonde’s Messiah Complex and fantasy comes out again here in spades. Catholics are foolish for following the teachings of men (men like the apostolic popes and bishops or even the apostles themselves). But we would not be foolish if we simply came to our senses to see that if we followed DeRonde we would be saved because he is not a man. DeRonde is exempted from being a man because he follows the bible and is the only one infallable enough to follow it perfectly. That makes DeRonde the spokesperson for the Holy Spirit or Jesus who is here now again among us without the expected trumpet fanfare from heaven’s angels and without the lighting that flashes across the sky pronouncing His arrival.

:banghead:

Invincible Ignorance by way of insanity might be the best defense a person can make to attempt to validate the Protestant fabrication of “Once Saved Always Saved”. And it would seem that DeRonde wants to make that case here. But if we want to get the permanent salvation that DeRonde imagines he has then DeRonde is asking us all to follow him into the Cuckoo’s Nest. Insanity…

Luther’s greatest contribution to humankind was proving that scrupulosity, hubris and insanity are all highly contagious…

James

 

[Alindawyl]

You are close on Sola Scriptura

Yay, I got it close despite not having access to any of the secret knowlege of the inner circle of the Fraternal Order of DeRonde!

but you lack understanding of your own faith or left out a minor detail as you noted in Sola Fide “you do good works to add saving grace” and to make up for sin…speaking of Catholics.

If you want to be taken seriously then don’t put words in the mouths of others. Criticize what we believe, not what you’ve been taught to THINK we believe. You’re taking our belief, removing the definitions on which it’s based, replacing them with unspoken presuppositions, and presenting that mess as what we consider to be the truth.

Tell you what. If you’re able to see into our hearts and determine that what YOU claim we believe is what we really believe, then I’ll agree with you. You will, of course, need to present some sort of credentials or evidence to support why you are able to speak with such authority.

Funny how it always comes back to authority…