I could use some help/prayers

[SteveGC]

Black and green font: Steve
Orange font: DeRonde

*The irony of your testimony of belief, DeRonde, is that as much as you aspire to follow God, and proclaim as such, you actually also follow man. Let’s face it. If you were born Amish, you would most likely be here professing the Mennonite faith to us. If born of atheists, you would be here denouncing God. The point I’m making is not that our faith and destiny rests in the hands of our upbringing, for there are thankfully many many converts to authentic Christianity. But no, my point is that you were probably brought up, or somehow extensively exposed to a Calvinist faith environment, receiving teachings from humans (not your Bible at first). I don’t doubt you genuinely felt drawn to our Lord, and that your intent to follow Him is quite genuine. But I think you also liked this idea you learned from humans of “knowing you are the elect”, and being “assured of salvation”, and especially attracted to the idea of “I can teach others the truth as God has revealed it to me”.

But the bottom line is, you believe the humans who taught you. You didn’t discern your Calvinist twist on Scripture on your own with the Holy Spirit. I know you didn’t. Say you did all you want. If you are atleast honest with yourself, you will admit that your upbringing and subequent exposure to human teaching is what has substantially formed your system of belief. People fashion their faith around the teachings of humans, not books they read on their own. We all do it this way.

**Actually, I was brought up in a Catholic environment, just so ya know. What you don’t seem to get no matter how often it is repeated is that their is only One that leads to the truth and understanding of the things of God. Without Him; their is no understanding of God.***There certainly is only One that leads to the truth, God alone. But that doesn’t mean everyone finds Him, especially those who follow faulty human teaching. You seem to be in denial of the fact that humans played a MAJOR role in your Christian formation, just like the rest of us. The point of contention is, how do you know they didn’t lead you astray?

So if we all do it this way, then why am I criticizing your methods? Because you fail to do what most of us also must do…DISCERN THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE HUMANS WHO TAUGHT YOU. IOW, why do they deserve your trust? And I can anticipate your answer I think… I wouldn’t trust a thing I say or anyone else unless I can verify through Scripture; like the Bereans. It is not something that can be done lightly; it takes diligence and prayer. You’re proving my point here. Your interpretation of Scripture was instilled in you FIRST by human teaching. This is something you will not admit. Because if you do, you have to then explain the authenticity of the teachers.

Because the Spirit of God indwelling in me (dwelling in me simply because I professed belief in Christ on ‘such-and-such’ date), validated the teaching I received from people in my life. He “spoke” to me in a spiritual way, and revealed to me I had found the “truth”, because He led me through the Scriptures (of course, to the passages the humans first showed me and interpreted for me), and verified that the meaning was as they had taught. You lost me here; sounds like “easy believism” to me; take the Savior part but ignore the Lordship or obedience part. I lost you with easy believism?? I figured you’d be right at home with that. Actually, this paragraph was my assumption of what you might say to explain why you trust the human teachers in your life. Isn’t it true that you trust your beliefs because you think the Holy Spirit validated through Scripture the human teaching (and interpretations) you received?

If I’m right about this response, except perhaps the parentheticals, I would hope you see the problem with it…again due to the fact that it relies so heavily on human teaching which in all probability was never checked for authenticity (historical succession from apostolic men). **If you re truly wanting to know the truth; you will find it in only one place.**Hopefully you don’t mean the Bible alone, I think you mean Christ…and then I would say…tell me something I don’t know. Oh wait, don’t. that would take a novel, apparently. But why don’t you actually respond to the denial you have of the utmost significance of human teaching in your Christian journey?

Now, I’m going out on a limb here to be shot down by your rebuttal of my assumptions here. Have at it. But please take the time first to search yourself and the history of your faith journey thus far. Then tell us why my presumptions are wrong.

 

[Seeking12]

Black and green font: Steve
Orange font: DeRonde

DeRonde is my sock-puppet identity, so naturally we agree. (Edited)

 

[DeRonde]

Yay, I got it close despite not having access to any of the secret knowlege of the inner circle of the Fraternal Order of DeRonde!

If you want to be taken seriously then don’t put words in the mouths of others. Criticize what we believe, not what you’ve been taught to THINK we believe. You’re taking our belief, removing the definitions on which it’s based, replacing them with unspoken presuppositions, and presenting that mess as what we consider to be the truth.

Tell you what. If you’re able to see into our hearts and determine that what YOU claim we believe is what we really believe, then I’ll agree with you. You will, of course, need to present some sort of credentials or evidence to support why you are able to speak with such authority.

Funny how it always comes back to authority…

So do you believe the works of the sacraments you practice do add or do not add “saving grace”?

 

[DeRonde]

DeRonde is my sock-puppet identity, so naturally we agree. (Edited)

**
Thanks for the words of encouragement; it is always good to hear from a brother/sister in Christ.**

 

[Alindawyl]

So do you believe the works of the sacraments you practice do add or do not add “saving grace”?

Tell me what you mean when you say “saving grace” and I’ll answer your question

 

[djrakowski]

So do you believe the works of the sacraments you practice do add or do not add “saving grace”?

God alone gives saving grace, and He uses the sacraments as a means of doing so.

You already know that the Catholic Church teaches that we can’t work our way into heaven, if that’s what you’re implying.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So do you believe the works of the sacraments you practice do add or do not add “saving grace”?

I’d like to see your taxonomy on “grace”. What do you mean by saving grace?
Catholics believe in a sanctifying grace that is most definately conveyed through the sacraments - in particular the sacrament of baptism where one gets initial justification and initial sanctifying grace that starts us on our life long progression in growing Christ. As long as we are in a state of “grace” (sanctifying grace) one is saved and will attain eternal beatitude with God. But by progressing into ever deeper sanctification one may actually increase in their capacity for sanctifying grace. The sacraments, especially the Eucharist (what our Lord commended we receive) gives us more grace in proportion to our ability to receive more. There are varying degrees of spiritual perfection as one responds to a deeper call to God’s grace.

When will you answer some of the questions here and in your enlightened mind teach us the difference between redemption and salvation? Here is your chance to prove that you are filled with the wisdom of God.

While you are contemplating that please tell us if we should throw out the “Acts of The Apostles” since all “Acts” are a works based testament to their faith.

And one last question. If Jesus redeemed all men on the cross and “it is finished” why must men do the work of confessing Christ or reciting the sinner’s prayer or “trusting” in the Lord? If it is finished as you say then what can man do to add to Christ’s work? Why must anyone “believe” since its clear you are trying to have a universal salvation and then adding new works of “belief” in contradiction to your belief that “it is finished”. You can’t have it both ways. I have given you here a big hint on how to answer my first question.

James

 

[SteveGC]

DeRonde is my sock-puppet identity, so naturally we agree. (Edited)

In other words, Seeking would say “Good job, DeRonde…you believe exactly what I believe…you’re a fascinating exegetist”

Seeking, show me that God limited His revelation to only that which was written down and canonized.

Furthermore; the Holy Spirit will lead a believer to other people who have written extensively on certain passages of the Bible to help gain better insights into the meanings of Scripture and help the believer to live more Christ like.

Now, this is rich. You don’t need apostolic authority, because, no worries, the Holy Spirit will guide you to humans who know. Really? And before you had the indwelling, Seeking…how do you know the people who taught you all about Christianity were teaching you correctly? You guys are marvelous Houdini’s, I tell ya…you can escape out of anything just by your “get outta jail free card” with your “Holy Spirit guidance” clause. No one can touch you because YOU are guided by the Holy Spirit in everything you do, everything you teach, everything you read…it’s all Spirit led, because you “feel” it.

It’s a clever trick, I’ll admit. I’d use it too if I was lost without an authentic Church - searching aimlessly for something to prove I’m right, and desperate to avoid any implication that in reality, I have formed my faith around the teachings of humans in my life…humans that I can not verify have given me authentic teaching from Christ.

Do us a favor Seeking and DeRonde…go to bed tonight and before you close your eyes…ask yourself…why do I believe what I believe? Who first taught me all this, and why do I trust them? If I am the ELECT, why did someone else tell me I was, instead of realizing it first through Scripture that there was such a thing that one can know?

 

[djrakowski]

Now, this is rich. You don’t need apostolic authority, because, no worries, the Holy Spirit will guide you to humans who know. Really? And before you had the indwelling, Seeking…how do you know the people who taught you all about Christianity were teaching you correctly? You guys are marvelous Houdini’s, I tell ya…you can escape out of anything just by your “get outta jail free card” with your “Holy Spirit guidance” clause. No one can touch you because YOU are guided by the Holy Spirit in everything you do, everything you teach, everything you read…it’s all Spirit led, because you “feel” it.

It’s a clever trick, I’ll admit. I’d use it too if I was lost without an authentic Church - searching aimlessly for something to prove I’m right.

Steve, it’s also an implicit claim of the charism of infallibility - the same charism they deny the Catholic Church, they allow for each individual sola scripturist (provided, of course, that they agree with DeRonde/Seeking12).

Since he’s guided by the Holy Spirit (“I just know I am, because I’m bearing fruit, and the Spirit has testified to my spirit that I’m a child of God!”), and Our Lord promised to guide us to an understanding of all truth (ignoring that the promise was directed to the apostles), then BANG! He’s got all truth, and only those who agree with him could possibly be saved!

Self-referencing theology - bad, bad idea.

 

[SteveGC]

Steve, it’s also an implicit claim of the charism of infallibility - the same charism they deny the Catholic Church, they allow for each individual sola scripturist (provided, of course, that they agree with DeRonde/Seeking12).

Since he’s guided by the Holy Spirit (“I just know I am, because I’m bearing fruit, and the Spirit has testified to my spirit that I’m a child of God!”), and Our Lord promised to guide us to an understanding of all truth (ignoring that the promise was directed to the apostles), then BANG! He’s got all truth, and only those who agree with him could possibly be saved!

Self-referencing theology - bad, bad idea.

Absolutely.

It’s such a mega-fortress of theology…transparently wrong…but impossible to engage. As soon as they’re backed into a corner…they hit their Staples EASY button, which shouts out “IMMUNITY!! I’M HOLY SPIRIT LED!! IMMUNITY!!” And they “prove” this with NOTHING. Paul C was trying to get them to show us something…ANYTHING…which would give anyone a true sense of security that their HOLY SPIRIT guidance was genuine. Of course they can’t do it…no one could. What they say is this>…“Well, if YOU had the Holy Spirit like WE do…you WOULD see that we are right”.

Amazing amazing circularly illogical, ultimatley impenetrable theology…and yes…BAD BAD idea. I know of only one entity strong enough to use such a clever tactic to spread error. But I ain’t goin’ there.

 

[djrakowski]

I really like what **paul c **said here:

Sure, God knows who will be saved and that person can’t be taken from him. But YOU don’t know it if you are one of the elect. You might think you are one of the elect, but you DO NOT know, your test not withstanding.

Absolutely correct. Until you’ve persevered to the end, you have no way of knowing whether you’re one of the ones God has chosen to… persevere to the end. Assuming final perseverance, if I understand it correctly, is the sin of presumption.

Thus, the OSAS non-Catholic is left with the same level of certainty as the Catholic - that is, I have present, moral assurance that I’m living within the will of Jesus Christ, and will know if I’ve been chosen to receive final salvation when I make it there.

It’s such a mega-fortress of theology…transparently wrong…but impossible to engage. As soon as they’re backed into a corner…they hit their Staples EASY button, which shouts out “IMMUNITY!! I’M HOLY SPIRIT LED!! IMMUNITY!!” And they “prove” this with NOTHING. Paul C was trying to get them to show us something…ANYTHING…which would give anyone a true sense of security that their HOLY SPIRIT guidance was genuine. Of course they can’t do it…no one could. What they say is this>…“Well, if YOU had the Holy Spirit like WE do…you WOULD see that we are right”.

Yeah, it’s impossible to argue against a theology in which the Holy Spirit supposedly assures each individual that he’s right in every matter of theology. It all comes back to, I have the Holy Spirit, so I’m right, because the Bible tells me that if I have the Holy Spirit, then I’ll be right

It also allows such a believer to claim that the Church was wrong for nearly 16 centuries, as DeRonde implied in another thread when he argued against the Real Presence (even though there’s virtually no witness for the symbolic view in Christian history prior to the Reformation). But if that’s the case, then how can it be said that the gates of hell hadn’t been prevailing against the Church ‘til good ol’ Martin Luther came along to rescue genuine, Biblical Christianity from the filthy clutches of the Roman Pontiff?

Amazing amazing circularly illogical, ultimatley impenetrable theology…and yes…BAD BAD idea. I know of only one entity strong enough to use such a clever tactic to spread error. But I ain’t goin’ there.

Yeah, I’d keep that opinion to myself if I were you - I wouldn’t want to see you banned for lack of charity

 

[SteveGC]

Yeah, I’d keep that opinion to myself if I were you - I wouldn’t want to see you banned for lack of charity

I hear ya. And I don’t mean to imply anything by it. If anything, I want Seeking and DeRonde in the Catholic Church. We could use such stubborness and dedication to Truth as these two have. They need to channel it toward something that’s actually authentic. I’m praying for them. Sincerely.

 

[Seeking12]

DeRonde is my sock-puppet identity, so naturally we agree. (Edited)

For the record; Deronde is an inlaw. The administrator has shown bias and obviously violated their own rules by posting admin action and in a disrespectful manner…typical for the unregenerate person that Michael Francis has proven himself to be.

 

[Seeking12]

DeRonde is my sock-puppet identity, so naturally we agree. (Edited)

For the record; Deronde is an inlaw. The administrator has shown bias and obviously violated their own rules by posting admin action and in a disrespectful manner…typical for the unregenerate person that Michael Francis has proven himself to be.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Seeking12 you just went over the line by insulting and slandering an admin.
I don’t expect you will be around much longer. May we expect you back as
Pope Seeking XIII or some other alias?

Don’t you think the administrators can’t see your IP Internet addresses to resolve you to the same PC or in house router? Even if you are not a sock-puppet in the same person to DeRonde and are just related its not exactly “honest” to be collaborating to build up each other and make strawman arguments as if you were independently minded individuals.

Uncharitable behavior and dishonesty will land you punishment both on earth and in the afterlife. I can’t say I wish you well because its clear to me you are anti-Catholic and have chosen your own fate in obstinacy to Catholics sincere efforts to teach you the truth. You no longer have an excuse of ignorance.

God help you,
James

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking12 you just went over the line by insulting and slandering an admin.
I don’t expect you will be around much longer. May we expect you back as
Pope Seeking XIII or some other alias?

Don’t you think the administrators can’t see your IP Internet addresses to resolve you to the same PC or in house router? Even if you are not a sock-puppet in the same person to DeRonde and are just related its not exactly “honest” to be collaborating to build up each other and make strawman arguments as if you were independently minded individuals.

Uncharitable behavior and dishonesty will land you punishment both on earth and in the afterlife. I can’t say I wish you well because its clear to me you are anti-Catholic and have chosen your own fate in obstinacy to Catholics sincere efforts to teach you the truth. You no longer have an excuse of ignorance.

God help you,
James

Thanks James, the inlaws will be leaving for Texas in a few weeks and it won’t be an issue any longer anyway. We are like minded but we do not agree on everything yet…LOL I’m working on it. Yes you are correct; I probably won’t be around much longer, but hey at least I was able to get the Word out and anyone who the Lord chooses to open their eyes He will.

I know Michael was doing what he believed to be right, but he could have been more professional or just asked via PM; rather than making false assumptions. But I’m sure he is following a given set of rules and just doing his job.

 

[Tomster]

DeRonde’s Messiah Complex and fantasy comes out again here in spades. Catholics are foolish for following the teachings of men (men like the apostolic popes and bishops or even the apostles themselves). But we would not be foolish if we simply came to our senses to see that if we followed DeRonde we would be saved because he is not a man. DeRonde is exempted from being a man because he follows the bible and is the only one infallable enough to follow it perfectly. That makes DeRonde the spokesperson for the Holy Spirit or Jesus who is here now again among us without the expected trumpet fanfare from heaven’s angels and without the lighting that flashes across the sky pronouncing His arrival.

:banghead:

Invincible Ignorance by way of insanity might be the best defense a person can make to attempt to validate the Protestant fabrication of “Once Saved Always Saved”. And it would seem that DeRonde wants to make that case here. But if we want to get the permanent salvation that DeRonde imagines he has then DeRonde is asking us all to follow him into the Cuckoo’s Nest. Insanity…

Luther’s greatest contribution to humankind was proving that scrupulosity, hubris and insanity are all highly contagious…

James

Thank you very much James.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Looks like Deronde and his sock-puppet got banned for a serious rules infraction.

James