I didn't know that!

[LilyM]

I guess my misconception is this. I am now told that Humanae Vitae is not an infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church. Is this true? And could one provide evidence (more than one quote) against it? Possibly even where I could find it. Thanks.

Woah - it is incorrect to refer to documents as being infallible. It is the teachings they contain that may or may not be. And they can be so regardless of the nature of the document in which they are contained.

If I write a book stating that Jesus Christ is divine - the second person of the Trinity in fact - the book I write is in no way “infallible”, nor is it an attempted exercise of the charism of infallibility, as I don’t possess the charism, or indeed any teachign authority within or outside the Church.

However, that DOCTRINE that my book proclaims - re the divinity of Jesus - is indeed infallible doctrine. You can’t use the fact that I personally didn’t write infallibly about it as reason not to hold the teaching itself to be infallible.

See the distinction?

Re Paul VI - yes, he and various other authorities stated that Humanae Vitae itself was not an exercise of Papal Infallibilty. However, my understanding is that there is broad theological consensus now that the teachings on artificial birth control, which as Paul himself said were held from the earliest times and definitive and irreformable, are indeed infallible teaching, albeit expressed in a document that is not in and of itself infallible.

I hope I’ve made myself clear.

 

[AJTheMan]

I’m interested in learning what misconceptions of CC teaching are most common.

Did you come here with ideas of what the CC teaches that turned out to be incorrect? If you did, which teachings were they? Was it easy for you to understand what the CC teaches on the topic(s), or is the pov so different enough that you had to do mental gymnastics to figure out how the CC is thinking?

(Of course I’m not asking you what teachings you’ve decided to agree with the CC on–I’m not saying that you agree with the CC on these topics.) This is only about any misconceptions you had about CC teachings.)

Thank you in advance for not turning this thread into a screaming match about who believes what and which belief is right.

I’ve always been under the impression that if you don’t become a Christian, you will go to hell. According to my converses with the posters here, apparently, you can still get into heaven without becoming Christian.

 

[Just_Lurking]

However, my understanding is that there is broad theological consensus now that the teachings on artificial birth control, which as Paul himself said were held from the earliest times and definitive and irreformable, are indeed infallible teaching, albeit expressed in a document that is not in and of itself infallible.

This is a hotly debated theological issue, and there is no consensus at this point. Most of the theological debate is over the minutiae of the conditions for the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. There is no official Catholic Church teaching as to whether it is infallible or not.

 

[aspirant]

I’ve always been under the impression that if you don’t become a Christian, you will go to hell. According to my converses with the posters here, apparently, you can still get into heaven without becoming Christian.

Some Christians believe that only people with explicit faith in Jesus Christ can be saved, but we Catholics (and some others, too) believe it is possible for anyone to be saved by Jesus.

 

[Just_Lurking]

but we Catholics (and some others, too) believe it is possible for anyone to be saved by Jesus.

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner called such people “anonymous Christians” (see here).

 

[Dominique1234]

Woah - it is incorrect to refer to documents as being infallible. It is the teachings they contain that may or may not be. And they can be so regardless of the nature of the document in which they are contained.

If I write a book stating that Jesus Christ is divine - the second person of the Trinity in fact - the book I write is in no way “infallible”, nor is it an attempted exercise of the charism of infallibility, as I don’t possess the charism, or indeed any teachign authority within or outside the Church.

However, that DOCTRINE that my book proclaims - re the divinity of Jesus - is indeed infallible doctrine. You can’t use the fact that I personally didn’t write infallibly about it as reason not to hold the teaching itself to be infallible.

See the distinction?

Re Paul VI - yes, he and various other authorities stated that Humanae Vitae itself was not an exercise of Papal Infallibilty. However, my understanding is that there is broad theological consensus now that the teachings on artificial birth control, which as Paul himself said were held from the earliest times and definitive and irreformable, are indeed infallible teaching, albeit expressed in a document that is not in and of itself infallible.

I hope I’ve made myself clear.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess my way of expressing myself lead some to think that the documents themselves are infallible, which is not what I meant. I meant exactly what you wrote. It’s what is written that is infallible. That what is said in Humanae Vitae is infallible. What they speak of in Humanae Vitae is infallible doctrine.That was the point I was trying to convey in the first place and it’s my mistake for not explaining myself correctly. Please accept my apologies to whomever I may have offended! God bless and thanks for the answer!

 

[Dominique1234]

This is a hotly debated theological issue, and there is no consensus at this point. Most of the theological debate is over the minutiae of the conditions for the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. There is no official Catholic Church teaching as to whether it is infallible or not.

Humanae Vitae does not have to be, and is not, an ex cathedra declaration since the issues are already infallibly taught by the ordinary Magisterium.

The issues IN Humanae Vitae are infallibly taught, therefore making what it SAYS infallible. It’s teachings are infallible. I hope I’ve made myself clear as to what I was saying. I am not saying that it has papal infallibility, but that what it contains has been proclaimed infallible by the ordinary Magisterium. Two different things, but in the end infallible.

 

[Just_Lurking]

The issues IN Humanae Vitae are infallibly taught, therefore making what it SAYS infallible. It’s teachings are infallible. I hope I’ve made myself clear as to what I was saying. I am not saying that it has papal infallibility, but that what it contains has been proclaimed infallible by the ordinary Magisterium. Two different things, but in the end infallible.

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is that your statement represents a conservative theological opinion, and not an actual, official teaching of the Catholic Church. There are Catholic theologians who agree with you and Catholic theologians who disagree with you. Both sides are allowed, and orthodox, precisely because there is no official teaching as to whether the teaching contained in Humanae Vitae is infallible by the ordinary magisterium.

Pope Benedict XVI, before he became pope, issued a list of infallible teachings, and contraception was not on that list. However, the list was just a non-complete list of examples, so the matter could go either way if it is ever decided by an official Catholic Church teaching in the future.

 

[Dominique1234]

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is that your statement represents a conservative theological opinion, and not an actual, official teaching of the Catholic Church. There are Catholic theologians who agree with you and Catholic theologians who disagree with you. Both sides are allowed, and orthodox, precisely because there is no official teaching as to whether the teaching contained in Humanae Vitae is infallible by the ordinary magisterium.

Pope Benedict XVI, before he became pope, issued a list of infallible teachings, and contraception was not on that list. However, the list was just a non-complete list of examples, so the matter could go either way if it is ever decided by an official Catholic Church teaching in the future.

Dear Lurking,

I will get the information that I am seeking from a Conservative Catholic. It seems to me that you are defending liberal (or watered down as I like to call it) Catholics. Does that make you one? Are you trying to defend contraception even though the Catholic Church itself, in the CCC, calls it “intrinsically evil”? If one does not follow what our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches, then one must not be Catholic at all. I only say this because this is what one does to excommunicate themselves from the Church, but seeing that no one knows their identity, one can still revel in the sacraments (those that one agrees with) of the Church. I am only going with what I know and have experienced myself in the past as a ‘watered down’ Catholic.

Most ‘catholics’ I know that would agree that contraception (in every aspect…and there are exceptions) is okay in our Church don’t go to reconciliation on a regular basis, receive communion in the state of Mortal sin (sacrilege), and don’t attend Holy Mass on most days of obligation. I’m not saying this is you, but it sure sounds like if you agree with this kind of thinking, you are well headed that way. Take it from a person who thought this way at one point in their life (me). Obviously things have changed for me.

I understand that you are trying to say that there is no infallible teaching on contraception, yet it states in (Genesis 38:9) - “And Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so it came about that when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, in order not to give offspring to his brother.” Now we both know that if he would have spilled his ‘seed’ into his brother’s wife, she may have conceived. So this, to me (and to what our Church teaches), is a form of contraception. It’s putting a barrier to life. That’s contraception. That’s why one asks to abstain, if you are on contraception for medical reasons, to abstain from sex, so as to not ‘spill seed’, if you will, is necessary.

Doesn’t it make it infallible if it states it in the Bible? I thought it did. Of course the ‘word’ contraception doesn’t appear, but other forms of it (or synonyms) appear frequently.

In Cardinal Ratzinger’s issue of infallible teachings of the Church, was abortion in there?
Did you know that most, if not all contraceptive pills will actually cause a very early term abortion of a zygote/embryo by not allowing the fertilized ovum to implant into the uterine wall?

Has my point been proven? Does the Pope himself have to put it in medical terms (which I am POSITIVE he has) to make his point that contraception is, and I state the CCC AGAIN, “intrinsically evil”? That’s the Catholic Church’s ‘OPINION’ then. Not a conservative Catholic’s ‘OPINION’… Is there any other kind of Catholic? There shouldn’t be if you ask me. To conserve what is taught by Jesus Christ Himself is being a Conservative Catholic, a True Catholic.

If one goes against the Church’s teachings, one is not with the Church… of course that’s a pretty obvious statement… haha…

Please don’t take ANY offense to anything I’ve said. I know how some people can see negativity in positive comments. I am doing my best to be civil and honest with you. Thanks for being civil as well.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christianity condemned contraception until the Anglicans started using it in the 1930’s, following the 1920’s Margaret Sanger and her Planned Parenthood.

The bad side of contraception is that it breeds infertility…people are not reproducing and then not having their own families to support them in old age…

Contraception promotes adultery and fornication…look at the STD’s our teens have…and now, because of Planned Parenthood’s campaign to use teen pregnancy, which they wholeheartedly accommodate, teen pregnancy is the most public generally accepted justification for abortion. Not only that, contraception fuels the pornography culture and videos…we are the porn and free sex capitol of the world – in terms of our influence in the world.

Africans who want to make Africa are part of the international culture are most offended when all the West does for them is send them a box of condoms…

Teen pregnancy and abortion is escalating this year. And I finished high school in '67 and would say most girls in my class were virgins…that was the year people’s morals went to hell.

Contraception is a very serious action because it destroys our future. And this sex culture is enslaving and has no hope in people of practicing any self control…continence.

What Pope Paul VI forewarned is now happening, along with it the indirect destruction of the family and traditional moral standards. This sexual immorality is part of the fuel of why Islam hates us and sees Christians as debauched Crusaders promoting sin instead.

I also find it appalling the great tolerance people have now of sexual promiscuity among the young and their indifference to teen diseases.

 

[Dominique1234]

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is that your statement represents a conservative theological opinion, and not an actual, official teaching of the Catholic Church. There are Catholic theologians who agree with you and Catholic theologians who disagree with you. Both sides are allowed, and orthodox, precisely because there is no official teaching as to whether the teaching contained in Humanae Vitae is infallible by the ordinary magisterium.

Pope Benedict XVI, before he became pope, issued a list of infallible teachings, and contraception was not on that list. However, the list was just a non-complete list of examples, so the matter could go either way if it is ever decided by an official Catholic Church teaching in the future.

I just spoke to a Doctor in Canon law. He states that Pope Paul VI, in order to avoid a ‘schism’ in the Church, decided on not promulgating the encyclical with pontifical infallibility. Many followers would have considered this to be ‘wrong’ although it is ‘intrinsically evil’, and may (or may not) have left the Catholic Church. Many would have been excommunicated, or at least would have left, (including many priests, bishops, religious, etc.) So many of them actually encourage it in a marriage, which is not taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If anything, they speak against it!

I am only repeating some of what was said to me, from one who has a Doctorate in Canon Law. You are absolutely right for it not being infallible. You’ve made your point. I hope I’ve made mine. God bless you and continue on your journey to Christ!

 

[Dominique1234]

Christianity condemned contraception until the Anglicans started using it in the 1930’s, following the 1920’s Margaret Sanger and her Planned Parenthood.

The bad side of contraception is that it breeds infertility…people are not reproducing and then not having their own families to support them in old age…

Contraception promotes adultery and fornication…look at the STD’s our teens have…and now, because of Planned Parenthood’s campaign to use teen pregnancy, which they wholeheartedly accommodate, teen pregnancy is the most public generally accepted justification for abortion. Not only that, contraception fuels the pornography culture and videos…we are the porn and free sex capitol of the world – in terms of our influence in the world.

Africans who want to make Africa are part of the international culture are most offended when all the West does for them is send them a box of condoms…

Teen pregnancy and abortion is escalating this year. And I finished high school in '67 and would say most girls in my class were virgins…that was the year people’s morals went to hell.

Contraception is a very serious action because it destroys our future. And this sex culture is enslaving and has no hope in people of practicing any self control…continence.

What Pope Paul VI forewarned is now happening, along with it the indirect destruction of the family and traditional moral standards. This sexual immorality is part of the fuel of why Islam hates us and sees Christians as debauched Crusaders promoting sin instead.

I also find it appalling the great tolerance people have now of sexual promiscuity among the young and their indifference to teen diseases.

AMEN Sister in Christ! It’s great to be amongst True Catholics with strong Faith! Keep it up and God bless!