I disagree with "Invincible ignorance"

[chrisg93]

I think St Thomas A. was wrong about “invincible ignorance”. I don’t think there is such a thing. God would not allow it. Scripture says that “everything has been made clear” and “God’s law is written on every heart”. It would be unfair of God to let some people be “unteachably foolish”. God does harden some peoples hearts and God does let some people be blind and God does create “vessels of wrath” but God does not simply make people incapable of knowing the truth.

 

[chris_molter]

What about those with diminished mental capacity due to birth defect, traumatic injury, or other aberrations beyond their control?

What about those who lived prior to Christ’s life on earth or those living in remote locations afterwards?

 

[clmowry]

I think St Thomas A. was wrong about “invincible ignorance”. I don’t think there is such a thing. God would not allow it. Scripture says that “everything has been made clear” and “God’s law is written on every heart”. It would be unfair of God to let some people be “unteachably foolish”. God does harden some peoples hearts and God does let some people be blind and God does create “vessels of wrath” but God does not simply make people incapable of knowing the truth.

For the average person, I would tend to agree with you.

There are, however, people who truly do not have the mental capacity necessary to understand the Christian faith.

There are also those who have been psychologically damaged to the extent that overcoming their “programming” is practically impossible.

I would think that some in those two groups are “invincibly ignorant”.

At the same time, I think the term is frequently used by those trying to be so ecumenical as to make all belief systems equal.

I also see the term used to excuse intellectual laziness, fear of change, desire to continue a sinful life style, etc. when the person in question is not “ignorant” of the truth at all.

They just do not want to live by that truth because the “pain” that might be caused by the change appears to be to great.

Chuck

 

[Soutane]

For the average person, I would tend to agree with you.

There are, however, people who truly do not have the mental capacity necessary to understand the Christian faith.

There are also those who have been psychologically damaged to the extent that overcoming their “programming” is practically impossible.

I would think that some in those two groups are “invincibly ignorant”.

At the same time, I think the term is frequently used by those trying to be so ecumenical as to make all belief systems equal.

I also see the term used to excuse intellectual laziness, fear of change, desire to continue a sinful life style, etc. when the person in question is not “ignorant” of the truth at all.

They just do not want to live by that truth because the “pain” that might be caused by the change appears to be to great.

Chuck

I believe that the “invincibly ignorant” also include those who find the concept that they may be wrong,so personally threatening that it becomes impossible to consider an alternative-it doesn’t just apply to matters religious.It becomes almost a willful or deliberate ignorance,but one rooted in “self-defense”.

 

[1edyson]

and isn’t invincible ignorance one of the small “t” traditions, that we are free to accept or to reject?

 

[Genesis315]

Certain truths can be known without access to divine revelation, but others cannot. For a cut-and-dry example, someone living in South America in the 900s could not be culpable for not believing in transubstantiation or the Assumption of Mary.

When Jesus was born, the angel brought glad tidings to all men of good will, not all men of eminent learning or perfect knowledge. We are not gnostics. Essentially, the purpose of evangelization is to persuade the world to accept divine grace and surrender themselves completely to the will and love of God (this will and love is manifested in Christ and in the faith and life of the Church). Some may already do this, but are ignorant or mistaken as to His will, but knowledge of the Gospel fulfills their desires, allows them to develop that grace to the fullest, and adhere more strongly to Christ and the divine will. This aspect of good will is why there have been great missionaries to non-Catholics (like St. Francis Xavier) and also great missionaries to Catholics (like St. Francis of Assisi).

 

[Genesis315]

and isn’t invincible ignorance one of the small “t” traditions, that we are free to accept or to reject?

Kind of. It’s more of a theoretical thing since none of us can judge for sure who is culpable for their ignorance and who is not. What is a truth of our faith is that God desires the salvation of all men and therefore offers to all men in some way a concrete means of salvation.

If one wants to judge that all those who do not explicitly profess every iota of the Catholic faith definitively damned for culpably rejecting those means, one could, but it would seem to violate the prohibition against judging and condemning. Concern for their soul is one thing (a very good thing in fact), claiming definitive knowledge is another.

 

[thessalonian]

I think St Thomas A. was wrong about “invincible ignorance”. I don’t think there is such a thing. God would not allow it. Scripture says that “everything has been made clear” and “God’s law is written on every heart”. It would be unfair of God to let some people be “unteachably foolish”. God does harden some peoples hearts and God does let some people be blind and God does create “vessels of wrath” but God does not simply make people incapable of knowing the truth.

In Luke 12 we are told “the one who knew will be treated with the unbelievers, but to the one who did not know, he will be given a light beating”. There are varying levels of culpability based on the grace given. That is pretty clear. God is the judge of what he has given each. He does not give equal grace.

 

[thistle]

I think St Thomas A. was wrong about “invincible ignorance”. I don’t think there is such a thing. God would not allow it. Scripture says that “everything has been made clear” and “God’s law is written on every heart”. It would be unfair of God to let some people be “unteachably foolish”. God does harden some peoples hearts and God does let some people be blind and God does create “vessels of wrath” but God does not simply make people incapable of knowing the truth.

Well you are wrong and as a Catholic you should know you are rejecting a Church teaching which if persisting can be be serious.

 

[jimmy]

I think St Thomas A. was wrong about “invincible ignorance”. I don’t think there is such a thing. God would not allow it. Scripture says that “everything has been made clear” and “God’s law is written on every heart”. It would be unfair of God to let some people be “unteachably foolish”. God does harden some peoples hearts and God does let some people be blind and God does create “vessels of wrath” but God does not simply make people incapable of knowing the truth.

God wants all men to be saved. It is the teaching of the council of Trent and it is the teaching of scripture itself.
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.[1Tim.2;4]
You must be able to reconcile this with any idea of predestination.

 

[puzzleannie]

suggest spending time with teenage Confirmation candidates who do not want to participate and are being forced to attend classes by their parents, or teach college students who have newly discovered atheism and a host of other isms, or simply listen to popular talk radio for examples of persons mired in invincible ignorance. Some of us have in-laws that could give us experience here as well. All the teaching and example in the world will not convince someone who is determined to reject all truth that does not agree with his preconceived notions.

 

[Genesis315]

All the teaching and example in the world will not convince someone who is determined to reject all truth that does not agree with his preconceived notions.

But that is the mind of someone caught up in himself, not seeking to humble himself before God, refusing to unite their will to a greater one. That kind of ignorance persists from a heart hardened with pride and sloth and self-centeredness–invincible ignorance is ignorance that persists despite good will and good faith.