I do not believe baptism is essential for salvation

[John_Henry]

1. Would the Pharisees and the Sadducees Jews have even spoken to Jesus if he did not preform the ritural of water baptism and became a proselyte Jew?

Who knows?! Certainly Jesus did not have a habit of doing things just to please the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

1. If baptism is water, why didn’t Jesus say in Mat 28:19, “Go . . . baptizing them in water”?

Because baptism is by water and it would have been redundant?

 

[tabcom]

As far as Christ being baptized as an example, and commanding us to do it,

**I humbly submit Mat 28:19. Could someone else show Christ commanding baptism by water?

Jesus said, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Mat 28:19
**

but not being a requirement, that woukd reduce Christ’s statement to a command to us to perform an empty ritual that was just for outward show. Where else does Christ command us to do such a thing?

**
Col. 2:14 states that the rituals have been done away with.

In addition to your statement . . .

Couldn’t Christ’s submission to water baptism be used to signal to the ritual obsessed Pharisees and Sadducees Jews that He was a Jew?

What are the requierements to become a proselyte Jew?

Maimonides, that greatly revered 12th century Jewish scholar, summed up all Talmudic tradition concerning converts to Judaism as follows.

“By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: ‘No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof’ (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: ‘Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes’ (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: ‘And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings’ (Exodus 24:5)…When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant…He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice…And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice…The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free, behold he is like a child new born.”

Reprinted from: jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/2_10/baptism

**

 

[mark_a]

. . . .it was good enough for Christ, His Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers, it’s certainly good enough for me.

Its the original “old time religion”!

 

[ricko]

For Tabcom,

Yes, water is used in baptizing. See John 3:5….Jesus says “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.” Notice the words “I solemnly assure you”. Compare this with “AMEN AMEN I say to you unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven”. Again he makes a point by using “AMEN AMEN” twice.

The Catholic Church does not deny the passages that Protestants point out saying that faith saves you and others like that. The Church agrees with them and believes them. The problem with Protestants is they do not embrace all of scripture. I admit it may sound simple to our human nature that ALL we have to do for salvation is “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior”. But scripture does not say that. It is also in our fallible human nature to ignore certain verses in Scripture because it doesn’t fit with our PERSONAL belief. The Catholic Church does not pick and choose verses from Scripture it embraces ALL of scripture. That is why the Church is said to have the “Fullness of Truth”. Is it not enough that Jesus himself said we must be baptized? Even if you cannot understand the why of it, isn’t it enough that He requires it?

Baptism prepares us for heaven by washing away all of our sins and then we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now we are children of God.

There are many examples in Scripture of baptism, what it does and how it is done. The Lord commands it, the Church teaches it and complies with his command “Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. This the Church has faithfully done for 2,000 years and will continue to do so until the end of the world.

 

[jemfinch]

Forgive me all for not spending at least an hour to read each and every post in this thread.

It shouldn’t take an hour, and it’s really a necessity if you’re going to make a worthwhile contribution. Not doing so is like butting into a conversation without really knowing what the conversants are talking about. It’s rude.

1. Would the Pharisees and the Sadducees Jews have even spoken to Jesus if he did not preform the ritural of water baptism and became a proselyte Jew?

 

[tabcom]

Jesus was a Jew by birth. He had no need to be baptized to confirm his Judaism.

**
It is much easier for me to see the redundancy in this statement then in your hypothesis regarding Mat 28:19.

If Jesus was a Jew at birth, wouldn’t it be redundant to be baptized by John the Baptist in water? As I submitted earlier, baptism in the first century was a ritual performed to become a proselyte jew.**

The only baptism his (Jesus’) listeners would have understood him to be talking about was water baptism. The idea that there are “multiple baptisms” as espoused by many Protestant denominations didn’t arise until the past several centuries.

**IMHO, a non-water baptism first appeared to the gentiles shortly after Christ resurrection. Isn’t Peter talking about another type of baptism in Acts 11:16

and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.'

17
If then God gave them (gentiles) the same gift he gave to us (jews) when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?"

John speaks of a blood baptism as early as the late 1st century in Rev. 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us (5) from our sins by his blood,

(5) Freed us: the majority of Greek manuscripts and several early versions read “washed us”; but “freed us” is supported by the best manuscripts and fits well with Old Testament imagery**

 

[tabcom]

For Tabcom,
Yes, water is used in baptizing. See John 3:5….Jesus says “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.” Notice the words “I solemnly assure you”. Compare this with “AMEN AMEN I say to you unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven”. Again he makes a point by using “AMEN AMEN” twice…

**Dear ricko, I humbly submit to you that you are taking this verse out of context. Let’s back up and read the context of Jesus’ answer to the question asked by Nicodemus.

Nicodemus asks in verse 4:

“How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

The context is not talking about water baptism. It is talking about being born again. Water surrounds us in the womb; water is the main ingredient of the human body, and especially in the blood which carries the stuff our cells need for life.

Jesus is talking about another type of birth to Nicodemus. A birth from above, by the Holy Spirit
**

 

[tabcom]

For Tabcom,
Is it not enough that Jesus himself said we must be baptized?

**
Yes.**

“Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

Yes. I agree with this commandment inclusively.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I thought i would make the point, that i am saying once you except that free gift of Christ, you should obviously submit to the will of God and obey him, as this is the sign of your faith.baptism and communion are done in obediance, it is Christ’s sacriffice that saves.

What if a person accepts Christ, but does not want to be baptized? Supposing this person is never baptized. He attends church, reads the Bible, but does not want to be baptized. What then?

 

[ricko]

It is not I who is taking John 3 out of context. Jesus says to Nicodemus that you must be born again. Nicodemus knows what “being born” means but is dumfounded as to what being “born again” could mean. Hence Nicodemus thinking of childbirth says "How can a man be born again once he is old? Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again? Nicodemus is thinking of childbirth but that is not what Jesus is referring to. Jesus is certainly not talking about the amniotic fluid.
See a response from Catholic Answers:

So when Jesus said that you must be “born of water,” what was he referring to? Natural birth? That would be equivalent to him saying that you have to be a human being to enter the kingdom—as opposed to being an animal or something else—which seems unnecessary. It seems more natural to read his words as meaning that you have to be “born of water” in some deeper sense.

Some argue that the phrase “water and spirit” does not refer to baptism, but rather to the natural birth in water (amniotic fluid) and the supernatural birth in the spirit. This interpretation has several flaws: For one, the context of the passage clearly points towards baptism, and there is no evidence that the Greek word for water (hudor) represents amniotic fluid. If St. John had wished to show a dichotomy between water and the spirit, he would have said, “born of water and of the spirit,” thus indicating two births. When John speaks of being born of water and the spirit, he mentions them as being a part of the same spiritual rebirth that takes place at baptism (Tit. 3:5). All of the early Christian writers understood John to be speaking in this way, and they unanimously agreed that John 3:5 referred to baptism (online see catholic.com/answers/tracts/bornagn.htm)).

 

[Chris_Fuller]

Beloved friends in Christ,

Do not be deceived that by following any law you can get into heaven. Galatians 3 provides a detailed treatise that tells us we are not justified by the law, but by faith. By faith and the Holy Spirit we naturally desire to do the will of the moral law (Galatians 3:12-14). Abraham’s faith alone was counted as righteousness (Gal. 3:6 & Gen. 15:6). Therefore, baptism by water is something to be done as an outward sign of our faith AFTER we have faith. Therefore, baptism of babies and others who do not yet know about Christ does no good for the soul of the person being baptized.

Therefore, it’s important to be baptized, but it doesn’t mean anything unless you have faith and received the Holy Spirit first.

 

[fbl9]

Beloved friends in Christ,

Do not be deceived that by following any law you can get into heaven. Galatians 3 provides a detailed treatise that tells us we are not justified by the law, but by faith. By faith and the Holy Spirit we naturally desire to do the will of the moral law (Galatians 3:12-14). Abraham’s faith alone was counted as righteousness (Gal. 3:6 & Gen. 15:6). Therefore, baptism by water is something to be done as an outward sign of our faith AFTER we have faith. Therefore, baptism of babies and others who do not yet know about Christ does no good for the soul of the person being baptized.

Therefore, it’s important to be baptized, but it doesn’t mean anything unless you have faith and received the Holy Spirit first.

Am i correct is saying that being baptised as an adult does nothing for the soul as well.

 

[Chris_Fuller]

Galatians 3 tells us that no act can get us into heaven. Because being baptized is an action, does that mean from Gal. 3 that it doesn’t affect the state of your soul?

Per Gal. 3, our faith is counted as righteousness. By our faith and the Holy Spirit which dwells within us we are compelled to lives of increasing righteousness. Baptism is an opportunity to tell others about what Christ has done in the life of the person being baptized. Therefore, baptism is an opportunity lead others to Christ.

Gal. 3 indicates baptism is a wonderful and beautiful outcome of being a Christian.

 

[davidv]

Galatians 3 tells us that no act can get us into heaven. Because being baptized is an action, does that mean from Gal. 3 that it doesn’t affect the state of your soul?

Per Gal. 3, our faith is counted as righteousness. By our faith and the Holy Spirit which dwells within us we are compelled to lives of increasing righteousness. Baptism is an opportunity to tell others about what Christ has done in the life of the person being baptized. Therefore, baptism is an opportunity lead others to Christ.

Gal. 3 indicates baptism is a wonderful and beautiful outcome of being a Christian.

Also:
Matt 28

[18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

We love God by obeying His commands. Without love of God we do not inherit heaven.

 

[fbl9]

Also:
Matt 28

[18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

We love God by obeying His commands. Without love of God we do not inherit heaven.

Oh silly us we should have know Christ would command us to do something entirely useless.

 

[fbl9]

snip…
By our faith and the Holy Spirit which dwells within us we are compelled to lives of increasing righteousness. Baptism is an opportunity to tell others about what Christ has done in the life of the person being baptized. Therefore, baptism is an opportunity lead others to Christ.

Gal. 3 indicates baptism is a wonderful and beautiful outcome of being a Christian.

The first line i can agree with,the last strikes a me as odd because the only people who would be around at the time of this “baptism” are more than likely to be persons of similar beleif as the one being baptised.
Can you the expalin what is beautiful about hanging around a bunch of people in soaking wet clothes. Or what is beautiful about getting wet for no reason.

 

[fbl9]

Why was Christ’s sacrifice done physically?
What part does creation play in our relationship to God?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

For the Protestants: When was Paul saved?

 

[panevino]

Beloved friends in Christ,

Do not be deceived that by following any law you can get into heaven. Galatians 3 provides a detailed treatise that tells us we are not justified by the law, but by faith. By faith and the Holy Spirit we naturally desire to do the will of the moral law (Galatians 3:12-14). Abraham’s faith alone was counted as righteousness (Gal. 3:6 & Gen. 15:6). …

Therefore, it’s important to be baptized, but it doesn’t mean anything unless you have faith and received the Holy Spirit first.

its more than important
for me Gal 3 does not somehow cancel out john 15:10, heb 5:9, mat 28:19

john 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. …10**If **ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

heb 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

then there is - mat 28:19, and Acts 8:38

Catholics agree with you that you cant simply rely on water baptism without faith and love.

extract of catechism
1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace… They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.
its a bit more complicatied than that but its there.