I don't believe that there was ever an apostasy as the Mormons claim.

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I do not feel that the Mormons have enough truth in their claim of an apostasy. I would really like a Mormon to answer the following question: what did Jesus mean when he said… ** “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”** Matthew 16:18

Was Jesus lying? I don’ think so!

 

[tundramom]

I agree!

At some point, I believe that a Mormon has to make the conscious choice between Joseph Smith’s claims and Jesus’ own words.

in Christ
Steph

 

[majick275]

i agree as well. Even though this is an essential core doctrine of the LDS, it is not clearly defined by them and no real specifics exist as to when that happened, how, what the results were, visible signs, etc.

all they have is that the early christian church of history is obviously not mormon, JS said he “restored” the “original” “fullness of the gospel” therefore an apostasy must have happened.

The Catholic church, on the other hand, has the the writings of the ECFs and the well documented process by which it assembled the bible and we can see a continuity of dogma that is apostolic in nature.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I agree!

At some point, I believe that a Mormon has to make the conscious choice between Joseph Smith’s claims and Jesus’ own words.

in Christ
Steph

I know, but all we can do is pray for them. God knows that they mean well, and that they truly believe what has been told to them. God will have mercy on them; God also knew that there would be many false prophets that will mislead his people. I think we should pray that they can see the truth through the eyes of Jesus, and not Joseph Smith. Remember, we were warned about the false prophets. We have to stay strong in our faith! God told us, through his son Jesus Christ, that he would not let the gates of hell prevail his church! No one can take those words out of context! They are there plain as day. But what I do not understand is when you know you have made a point, or a truth out of something, but because of their pride, they will still disallow it in their heads as truth. (I’m not just talking about the Mormons either, it goes for anyone)That’s the only thing that worries me. You can not let your pride get in the way of your salvation.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

i agree as well. Even though this is an essential core doctrine of the LDS, it is not clearly defined by them and no real specifics exist as to when that happened, how, what the results were, visible signs, etc.

all they have is that the early christian church of history is obviously not mormon, JS said he “restored” the “original” “fullness of the gospel” therefore an apostasy must have happened.

The Catholic church, on the other hand, has the the writings of the ECFs and the well documented process by which it assembled the bible and we can see a continuity of dogma that is apostolic in nature.

I know exactly what you mean! For instance, my church has been established since before the LDS religion even was thought up. And that is just my little church in Mississippi. If there was an apostasy, my church wouldn’t have even been around, and not to mention, in full swing of business, if an apostasy. I come from a French settlement. All of my ancestors settled here on the Gulf Coast and they were all Catholic!

 

[tundramom]

Alisha,
You are very fortunate to have been a Catholic and that your ancestors were as well.

It was a hard transition from Mormonism for me, but in the end it was a clear cut choice.

in Christ
Steph

 

[pismopal]

If JS has been a prophet everything he said would have truth…including his pronouncement that the Catholic Church was in apostasy. The truth is JS wasn’t a prophet and most of what he said was self serving and had nothing to do with God. JS needed to distance himself from Christianity because he wanted to steer the ship…his own way for his own reasons. His replacement B.Y .had the same goal. This is what LDS followers want and this is the way they should have it…the truth is not relative to belief anyway.

 

[pismopal]

Before some Mormon gets all excited about what I say about JS…remember that your religion is pronouncing my religion to be false based on the pronouncement of the 1800’s equivalent of a used car salesman. Who and what is being insulted here? JS was and is, an influencial nobody, who has pried millions away from the true Church. How gentle can one be with this?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Alisha,
You are very fortunate to have been a Catholic and that your ancestors were as well.

It was a hard transition from Mormonism for me, but in the end it was a clear cut choice.

in Christ
Steph

Steph, I feel you are an answer to my prayers!! My husband is Mormon, and his entire family. They used to always try and get me to their house (his sister’s house) and meet the missionaries, or have dinner with the elders. I realized that my husband is VERY knowledgeable in his religion, and I, at the time (18 years old), was not in mine. I learned very early on in our relationship that there was no reasoning with him, or his family. They have been given weapons to fight their battles. The Mormon leaders have prepared them for everything you can think of that would be questioning their religion. I knew I had a lot to learn before I ever even try to approach this situation again. I also noticed that they were always trying to tell me little “statistics” like, “you know Mormons live longer than any other people,” and, “they have less illness than anyone else”. Things to try and make me think that they are God’s chosen people, and why would they be able to live longer lives and get sick less often, if this wasn’t the true church. Upon me telling this to my mom, she was so upset! She told me to love them, as they are people who have been mislead, but to never get myself cornered with one until I have full understanding of everything in our faith (Catholicism), and why we do the things we are do. Any advice for me as to my husband still being a Mormon; We were married in the Catholic Church, and he drinks tea and coke and beer, and is extremely against abortion no matter what the situation is. So I always ask myself, does he really still believe in the Mormon faith, or is he scared to let his family down? He has never attended his church since we have been together (dating for 9 years and married 2 years, so a total of 11years) , unless it for his niece and nephew who were baptized there.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

If JS has been a prophet everything he said would have truth…including his pronouncement that the Catholic Church was in apostasy. The truth is JS wasn’t a prophet and most of what he said was self serving and had nothing to do with God. JS needed to distance himself from Christianity because he wanted to steer the ship…his own way for his own reasons. His replacement B.Y .had the same goal. This is what LDS followers want and this is the way they should have it…the truth is not relative to belief anyway.

you got it right when you said “self serving”!!!

 

[ricko]

No, there was no Apostasy as the Mormons claim. Where is the evidence? The only historical evidence proves that the Church continued as Jesus promised. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “The household of God . . . the pillar and foundation of truth.” In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. “No one can enter a strong man’s house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house” (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the “strong man” guarding his household, the Church.) “On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18); “Behold, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20); “The Father . . . will give you another Advocate to be with you always” (John 14:16); “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all I have told you” (John 14:26); “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (John 16:13). The bible is clear, Jesus did not lie, could not lie, but the theory of an apostasy is a lie. Since they have no proof of an apostasy they simply proclaim that it happened and with some that is all that is needed. We’ve all seen westerns in the movies and TV where a murder is commited and the sheriff jails a guy for another crime but we the audience knows he is not the killer. Now on the scene comes the real killer, he incites the crowd, tells them the killer is in jail and needs justice now (hanging). No proof has been offered, just one man stirring up the feelings of the town. So they bust into the jail and hang the man, all based on their FEELINGS. That, sadly is the nature of some who set their reasoning aside and go only on feelings, easy to believe something bad about someone with no proof but slow to believe the TRUTH. This is how the Mormons work with their apostasy. They know human nature is inclined to believe something bad before believing something good. So all they have to do is make the accusation, with no proof, and some will believe simply because it is said. Just like the mindless crowd that hung an innocent man, the Mormons believe with no reason, no evidence, no proof.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

No, there was no Apostasy as the Mormons claim. Where is the evidence? The only historical evidence proves that the Church continued as Jesus promised. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “The household of God . . . the pillar and foundation of truth.” In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. “No one can enter a strong man’s house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house” (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the “strong man” guarding his household, the Church.) “On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18); “Behold, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20); “The Father . . . will give you another Advocate to be with you always” (John 14:16); “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all I have told you” (John 14:26); “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (John 16:13). The bible is clear, Jesus did not lie, could not lie, but the theory of an apostasy is a lie. Since they have no proof of an apostasy they simply proclaim that it happened and with some that is all that is needed. We’ve all seen westerns in the movies and TV where a murder is commited and the sheriff jails a guy for another crime but we the audience knows he is not the killer. Now on the scene comes the real killer, he incites the crowd, tells them the killer is in jail and needs justice now (hanging). No proof has been offered, just one man stirring up the feelings of the town. So they bust into the jail and hang the man, all based on their FEELINGS. That, sadly is the nature of some who set their reasoning aside and go only on feelings, easy to believe something bad about someone with no proof but slow to believe the TRUTH. This is how the Mormons work with their apostasy. They know human nature is inclined to believe something bad before believing something good. So all they have to do is make the accusation, with no proof, and some will believe simply because it is said. Just like the mindless crowd that hung an innocent man, the Mormons believe with no reason, no evidence, no proof.

Rick, I understand completely what you are saying. Do you think that sometimes they maybe do know the truth, but because of their pride they still make themselves believe that JS was right anyways? Sometimes I wonder if Jesus himself or the Virgin Mary or an angel, was to come down from heaven and tell them that they have fallen for a false prophet, if they would even listen to them. I know if God , Jesus, Mary or an angel came to me and told me I was in the wrong religion, I would listen to ANYTHING they would tell me. Because my life on earth is all about how I can get to heaven, and if I noticeably denounce something that comes in Gods name I would be scared. To totally let our own judgment get in the way of what he tells us is the truth, is such a horrible thing. Your right, it happened many times in the bible. There will always be someone trying to lead astray God’s people. And I honestly feel sorry for some of them. Because I truly believe that they do not know any better. Actually that’s what Jesus said while he was on the Cross “God forgive them, for they know not what they do” but in another since, God also said to be wise not in the ways of the world, but in the way of his word.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

No, there was no Apostasy as the Mormons claim. Where is the evidence? The only historical evidence proves that the Church continued as Jesus promised. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as “The household of God . . . the pillar and foundation of truth.” In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. “No one can enter a strong man’s house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house” (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the “strong man” guarding his household, the Church.) “On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18); “Behold, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20); “The Father . . . will give you another Advocate to be with you always” (John 14:16); “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all I have told you” (John 14:26); “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (John 16:13). The bible is clear, Jesus did not lie, could not lie, but the theory of an apostasy is a lie. Since they have no proof of an apostasy they simply proclaim that it happened and with some that is all that is needed. We’ve all seen westerns in the movies and TV where a murder is commited and the sheriff jails a guy for another crime but we the audience knows he is not the killer. Now on the scene comes the real killer, he incites the crowd, tells them the killer is in jail and needs justice now (hanging). No proof has been offered, just one man stirring up the feelings of the town. So they bust into the jail and hang the man, all based on their FEELINGS. That, sadly is the nature of some who set their reasoning aside and go only on feelings, easy to believe something bad about someone with no proof but slow to believe the TRUTH. This is how the Mormons work with their apostasy. They know human nature is inclined to believe something bad before believing something good. So all they have to do is make the accusation, with no proof, and some will believe simply because it is said. Just like the mindless crowd that hung an innocent man, the Mormons believe with no reason, no evidence, no proof.

Exactly

 

[ricko]

Thank you Alisha. You have a very level head with a lot of common sense which sadly is not too common today.

As to the apostasy, where is the historical evidence? If there had been an apostasy someone would have written about it. There are many historical documents about all sorts of things even heresies. Through out history there have been many heresies and enemies of the Church. Many papers have been written against the Church in times past. What a great opportunity for the enemies of the Church. Can you see the headlines?
“Apostasy in the Catholic Church”. But not one word, not one letter of the “Great Apostasy” exists, because none were ever written. While the “Great Apostasy” was occurring according to the Mormons, life in the Church that Jesus established was going on as usual. The Early Church Fathers were writing their letters, the Gospel was being spread, councils were held, Rome was being converted and the Canon of the bible was being established.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Thank you Alisha. You have a very level head with a lot of common sense which sadly is not too common today.

As to the apostasy, where is the historical evidence? If there had been an apostasy someone would have written about it. There are many historical documents about all sorts of things even heresies. Through out history there have been many heresies and enemies of the Church. Many papers have been written against the Church in times past. What a great opportunity for the enemies of the Church. Can you see the headlines?
“Apostasy in the Catholic Church”. But not one word, not one letter of the “Great Apostasy” exists, because none were ever written. While the “Great Apostasy” was occurring according to the Mormons, life in the Church that Jesus established was going on as usual. The Early Church Fathers were writing their letters, the Gospel was being spread, councils were held, Rome was being converted and the Canon of the bible was being established.

Rick you are so right about this because I was reading the history of my church, and it was the largest church in our area in the early 1800’s which is Earlier than what JS claims he found the Mormon Church.

 

[William_M]

LambofGodGirly:

"John was a priest after the order of Aaron, and had the keys of that priesthood, and came forth preaching repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, but at the same time cries out, ‘There are come one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose,’ and Christ came according to the words of John, and He was greater than John, because he held the keys of the Melchezidek Priesthood and kingdom of God, and had before revealed the priesthood of Moses, yet Christ was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness; and Jesus in His teachings says, “Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ What rock? Revelation.”

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith page 282.

“To Peter the Lord said that the gates of hell should never prevail against the rock of revelation. (Matt. 16:18).”

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine page 304.

“Upon this rock of revealed truth I will build my Church.” Cleon L. Rogers, The New Linguistic and Exegitical Key to the Greek New Testament page 37.

“Behold I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you [Joseph] have written are true; wherefore you know that they are true.
And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things that are written;
For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
Wherefore if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

Doctrine & Covenants 18:2-5.

The "rock"is not Peter, so the Catholic Church cannot trace its authority to Peter. There was indeed a Great Apostacy, the keys of priesthood authority were lost from the earth, and this necessitated the Restoration for which Heavenly Father selected as his Prophet, the boy Joseph.

Ask your husband. And tell him to get his rear end into (Mormon) church this Sunday or the Lord will put his foot right there.

 

[William_M]

BTW

Meetinghouse 14928 Big Ridge Road, Ocean Springs, MS

Ocean Springs Ward 9:00 a.m. (228) 875-6656

Biloxi Ward 11:00 a.m. (228) 365-3677

I am originally from New Orleans, so we are practically neighbors.

 

[MelanieAnne]

William, you may be a very sincere person but there is absolutely no evidence of the “apostasy” claimed by the Mormon church. It didn’t happen. The only evidence that exists is basically that some Mormon “said so”. That’s not evidence no matter how much anyone would like to make it so. It’s an excuse used to justify the introduction of Mormonism, among others. That’s all.

This is a Catholic forum in general, and while it’s true that this is the “non Catholic religions” section of the forum there are still some things that you would be well advised to remember ~

• It’s offensive, and perhaps even contrary to forum rules (it’s easy to check!) for you to proselytize here. Since Mormons have a fairly well established track record of attempting conversions of Catholics, this is not surprising. That doesn’t change the fact that it is offensive. One of the forum rules everyone agrees to is respect of the Catholic faith. Please remember that.
• The Catholics here are, mostly, very committed to their faith. I submit if you ARE here to proselytize, your time is being wasted and could be used more productively elsewhere. (Even though, personally, I wish you would NOT attempt to convert ANYONE to your faith since I believe it is heresy!

 

[William_M]

Dear Melanie Anne:

Thank you for sharing with me your thoughts and concerns about my posts on this thread and thank you for the courteous way in which you did so.

Part of my posts, which I will discuss a little later below, in fact had no place in responding to the original post and I should not have included that portion.

I have read the rules of this forum, have agreed to abide by them, and I do try, I hope successfully, to abide by them.

The original post asks, in effect, how can Mormons believe that there was a Great Apostacy in light of Matthew 16:18. The original poster, LambofGodGirly, asked the same question, in a more elaborate form, in another thread titled “Mormon-Beliefs-A Civil Discussion Please”.

The intent of my post in this thread was to answer the question by explaining the understanding of people of my faith, which is now shared by at least some non-Mormon biblical scholars and translators, that the “rock” referred to in Matthew 16:18 was not a church but, rather “revelation”, and that “the gates of hell” cannot prevail against revelation. There is a church today, which rests upon the rock of revelation, by teaching of revelation received by a living Prophet and Apostles, and it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So, I think you can see that this is a significant scriptural point to the Latter-day Saints.

Of course, even if one believes, as do people of my faith, that Matthew 16:18 does not remotely rule out apostasy, that does NOT mean that there necessarily was any apostasy. When, in my prior posts in this thread, I said that “there was indeed a Great Apostasy”, I seriously overstated the conclusion that could be drawn from my discussion of Matthew 16:18. That is the portion of my prior post which I shouild not have included. Obviously, I do believe that there was a Great Apostasy, but for reasons which I did not even mention in my prior posts.

There have been extensive discussions on threads here at CAF about whether the Great Apostasy did or did not occur and many such discussions involved Mormon and Catholic posters whose biblical, theological and historical knowledge are so much greater than mine that I feel like I am a mule among racehorses. So, I will keep my mouth shut. I state only that Matthew 16:18, understood as I have discussed here, does not settle anything regarding apostasy, apostolic succession, or related issues.

Lastly, while the confusion may well have been of my own making, as my prior posts were not exactly models of careful wording, you are mistaken if you think that my posts were proselytization. Even aside from my agreement to abide by the CAF rules, I seriously doubt anyone could be converted to the Mormon faith on an internet discussion board, and so I would not waste my time trying that. Per LambofGodGirly’s posts here, on other threads, and her Public Profile, her husband is a Mormon, and therefore my brother, who does not attend church regularly. My posts did include some prodding to get him to church. Because he is a Mormon, I was not proselytizing a Catholic.

I hope this post was not too long. Best regards.

William

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi William,

I was not suggesting that you definitely WERE proselytizing, I was just letting you know that it isn’t exactly rare. Sorry for any confusion.

As for the “Great Apostasy” ~ there has yet to be a Mormon that has posted to this forum, regardless of how learned they may be, at least one that I’ve seen, that has been able to establish a scintilla of evidence for any “Great Apostasy”. It’s talked about a lot, but that doesn’t make it so. No one has to be a scholar to figure that out!

Cheers!