I don't believe that there was ever an apostasy as the Mormons claim.

[mfbukowski]

No, all who are baptized into Christ are catholic; many just are not in communion with Christ, having separated themselves from his table.

And you (plural) are the judge of that? I think I will let HIM judge, thank you.

 

[mfbukowski]

But we don’t say you will be damned for not believing. We can’t say that. We entrust you to God’s mercy. We also expect that many, many non-Catholics and even unbaptized people will enter heaven, that God will judge mercifully upon their efforts to live and love. Of course, since the Church is the home God created for everyone, it is better for everyone if they live in the Church. Living outside it deprives one of spiritual aids and the graces God gives in the Sacraments and is thus more dangerous.

So you see, our formula relies on God’s justice and mercy, not on some fanciful make-believe about some nice “catch-all” system designed for fairness by human standards in the afterlife.

This is all just name calling. I think you will receive God’s mercy too. And if I were you, I wouldn’t bring up “fanciful systems”

Someone brought up indulgences. Now these are received out of the vast treasury of “merit” built up by Mary and Jesus, kind of like a bank correct?

Kind of like the “bailouts” we hear about today, right?

So you see, our formula relies on God’s justice and mercy, not on some fanciful make-believe about some nice “catch-all” system designed for fairness by human standards in the afterlife

In that light, maybe you want to re-think that sentence.

 

[PaulDupre]

Just can’t stay away, can you mf?

 

[Arandur]

And you (plural) are the judge of that? I think I will let HIM judge, thank you.

He does and has and that is my point–it’s not “US” at all. That is what I was explaining. We are given God’s truth and His basic will for our salvation to know, and by being obedient to it to be in Communion with Him. By that basis we do know what is necessary for Communion. We can’t judge an individual, however, in terms of their eternal salvation.

How is this different from your belief?

 

[Arandur]

Wow. That’s 265 opportunities to get something wrong. Just one will do. So not a single one of those was disputed or doubted by anyone ever? I know otherwise.

Not a single one of your “prophets” was disputed? I know otherwise.

What’s your point and what’s your criteria here for maintaining the Church?

 

[Arandur]

This is all just name calling. I think you will receive God’s mercy too. And if I were you, I wouldn’t bring up “fanciful systems”

Someone brought up indulgences. Now these are received out of the vast treasury of “merit” built up by Mary and Jesus, kind of like a bank correct?

Kind of like the “bailouts” we hear about today, right?

Nope. You don’t much understand them, it seems. Did you read what I wrote before on them?

Calling indulgences a fanciful system?
Tell me, how do you think indulgences really differ from any other good act? We know that the prayers of righteous men avail much; that prayer is powerful; that acts of charity/love cover a multitude of sins; that when we sin, we should strive to make things right. Indulgences are essentially formal encouragement to good actions with the knowledge that God looks favorably on such things. We also know that the keys of authority Jesus gave to Peter and the apostles involve binding and loosing authority, and that the roles he gave them are leadership and shepherding roles, so the prescription and encouragement of such activities is well within the purview of the Church Christ established.

We know that we will be tested in fire (Purgatory, essentially), so purifying ourselves here on earth by good spiritual or corporal acts improves our quality in light of such testing (though all through the grace of God, since all good things–including our own actions–come from God). We also know that the Communion of Saints is real and living, since any saint achieves eternal life, and thus it is good to not forget them but to continue to treat them as living and desire to help them in their struggles.

In light of all that, what is so unusual about indulgences? How are they any more fanciful than the simple message of the Scriptures?

In that light, maybe you want to re-think that sentence.

Nope. Do you?

 

[mfbukowski]

Because if I take this at face value, it means we have nothing further to discuss–this isn’t something reasonable people believe.

And why I am going to be at madb where there are actual things to discuss.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And why I am going to be at madb where there are actual things to discuss.

Oh, I see, you want to discuss things like Mayan dinosaurs, Peter being endowed, and brother of Jared glowing stones, and other fascinating make believe things.

You’re cracking me up.

 

[rmcmullan]

Okay, thanks for engaging me Arandur but I just can’t buy it. Anyway, it’s been fun and thought provoking.

 

[mfbukowski]

Oh, I see, you want to discuss things like Mayan dinosaurs, Peter being endowed, and brother of Jared glowing stones, and other fascinating make believe things.

You’re cracking me up.

smootchy smootchy

 

[ricko]

Mormons misconstrue the biblical passages which do refer to a “great apostasy” from the Christian Church. They read into the text a complete apostasy. Scripture mentions an apostasy in Matthew 24:4-12; Mark 13:21-23; Luke 21:7-8; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 2 Timothy 3:1-7, 4:1-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; and Jude 17-19. Most of these verses say “many” will fall away, and not one mentions a complete apostasy of the Church. Another complication for Mormons is that these verses say the apostasy will take place at the end times, the “latter days” as the King James renders it. The second and third centuries were not the "latter days."

Another leak in the Great Apostasy hoax. The bible says it would not happen until the end times. The second century is not the end times. The LDS have ignored everything the bible has to say about the apostasy. First, the Church Jesus founded would not have the gates of hell prevail against it and then that the apostasy will not occur until the end times. Of course it’s been shown time after time that the Mormons will not believe what the bible says.

 

[Arandur]

Okay, thanks for engaging me Arandur but I just can’t buy it. Anyway, it’s been fun and thought provoking.

Well, with such a lack of response I’m not sure I believe you actually engaged your mind in thought, but there’s not much I can do about your seeming unwillingness to use your God-given gift of reason to consider the issues at hand rationally.

It was worth a try.