I don't even understand Sola Scriptura

[simspt]

I Ever since then, the Catholic Church has continued to become more and more disunited as it continues to lose market share of Christianity in the West.

Forgive my ignorance, I fully understand that as time goes on Christendom seems to be becoming more and more disunited which is sad. But how does the ever growing number of new denominations reflect disunity within the Catholic Church itself Since the reformation market share has obviously been impacted due to increased competition but the definition of unity as you state it is confusing me. There is more disunity in Christianity as a whole therefore there is more disunity in Catholicism in particular???

 

[Nicea325]

Jesus instituted His Church for one reason and that reason is to preach to the world the words of salvation in Jesus Christ.
.

Exctly Richard! He founded His Church…FIRST and the Bible is a product of His Church.Jesus no where mentions or teaches the Bible-Alone/written words alone is sufficient-does He?

Jesus saves,not the Bible.

 

[JonNC]

Jesus instituted His Church for one reason and that reason is to preach to the world the words of salvation in Jesus Christ.

And to administer the sacraments.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hellow cooterhein; You have to forgive me, due to lack of time on these forums I can only generalize my responses and not take them point by point at this time, as you so generously did. Thank you tremendously for your response know that I have read them.

The great divide I see here between Protestants and Catholics when it comes to the bible is this; While protestants view the teachings of the bible symbolically, Catholics live out the scriptures litterally example? The Eucharist and the sacraments "all’. So you see, while protestants are busy learning new ways of understanding the languages and letters put on page. Catholics have been living the way of scriptures since the resurrection. Need proof? See Luke 24, read Read Revelations “all” then go visit a Catholic Mass be it West or East and you will find our liturgy soaked in scriptures with the true presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity.

So you see cooterhein, for the simple Catholic need not earn a degree in greek or latin to learn and understand the scriptures fulfilled in Jesus Christ, a Catholic lives out the scriptures in His/Her faith.

Your opinion of the heirarchy of the body (Catholic church) of Jesus Christ is foggy because your faith based upon a secular “Lexicon”? does not reach the apostolic Traditional faith handed down to us “orally and written”. Leaving your “faith based on a Lexicon” coming only from a secular mind of late, never from the original understanding of the writings handed down and practiced by the Apostles and their successors.

This holds true to your opinion of “Lexicon” reading, which never gives the Living Traditions of the Apostles because it only deals with what the “author” can (view) on a page from afar. Leaving your Lexicon base faith out to dry with only definitions to grasp and always guessing from a far what Jesus and the Apostles actually taught, lived and practiced which was witnessed and handed down to us before it got written down.

In other words what your Lexicon based faith is lacking, is the Apostolic Tradition that has been handed down and lived out these past 2000 years since the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Holding ones faith to letters on a page is not Christianity, but an intellectual guess of Christianity without knowing any witnesses who lived out the pages of the scriptures, because not everything Jesus did got written down, you need the Apostles oral Traditional teachings that are supported by scripture and the eye witnesses in their Catholics successors who were deacons, priests before they became bishops and popes.

The Catholic Church has all these and more, if you just searched the heirarchy from those who live it and have lived it out since apostolic times. You will not find the True Christian faith in a Lexicon or bible alone (Sola Scriptura). Here are some scriptures that support what I just revealed to you; Peace be with you

2Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. 14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers,** stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.** 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting encouragement and good hope through his grace, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good deed and word.

2Thess.3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the endurance of Christ. 6 We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not** according to the tradition they received from us.**

1Timothy 3:14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave** in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth**. 16 Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who 7 was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

1Corinthians11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

P.S because your lexicon does not record a living apostolic Tradition. The bible was canonized for the Catholic Liturgy, not for the lexicon to guess what the letters mean on a page. We know because our living Saints and Martyrs were there, not the Lexicon authors and or opinions to guess at.

cooterhein;7464161]That’s unlikely. You should know by now that there is some merit to the stereotypes of Catholics who don’t know their way around the Bible and the Protestants that do.

 

[simspt]

the Catholic definition of unity has no use to me personally. It has some use for you, though, and you believe the reception of Catholic sacraments and formal Catholic membership does cause some significant form of unity to happen between you and the Church as well as between you and other Catholics. According to your understanding of how unity is related to these things, the Reformation had a lot to do with the state of unity between Catholics and the brand-new group of former Catholics as well as the unity between the Reformers and the Church.

Hi Cooterhein,
Do you think the developments within the early church that led from a college of presbyters to the single bishop leadership had important implications on unity of church teaching during the second and third century? As well as important implications with which writings were considered orthodox and normative by the church? To my mind this development resulted in maintaining orthodoxy and unity against heresy and schism that the early church faced and was not a break from the apostolic and subapostolic church but rather a natural (might i say Spirit guided) process. I think you might agree that errors by the early church in which norm they accepted (that is which authoritative writings they accepted ) would have led to many more errors in the Christian faith. But cant the same be said as to the early church recognizing the bishops as successors to the apostles via the subapostolic church who protected the “deposit” in teaching authority and that teaching also being accepted as a norm or rule of faith? Even if you think the development of the episcopate was nothing more than a natural response to threats of unity would you not agree that Catholics like Raymond Brown pose a pretty good question when they express the ambiguity of what it would mean to claim the guidance of the church by the Spirit while excluding the fundamental shaping of the special ministry which is so intimately connected with Christian communal and sacramental life. Seeing both norms (writings and recognition of bishops as successors and their teachings as normative as well as their discernment on the previous mentioned acceptance of those writings) as necessary seems to me to be what was needed to safeguard the apostolic testimony in the early church. As Francis Sullivan has written " a wrong decision about the living norm of faith used in countering the threat of Gnosticism would have been just as disastrous for the church as a wrong decision about the reception of the NT as its written norm." Do you think the Spirit guided this process (not every little detail of course)? Dont you think the episcopate structure and its leadership and their role in settling on the NT writings could have been Spirit guided. Sure there are very human elements that were involved in the development of the episcopate but there were equally those in the NT writings themselves. Anyways im rambling sorry…One more thing just maybe the development of the episcopate did have a strong positive influence on early orthodox Christian unity and that unity influenced agreement on what would be accepted as authoritative writing (ie NT) and therefore had an enormous impact on all Christians in subsequent generations and therefore has been very useful for you who accepts those writings.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Exctly Richard! He founded His Church…FIRST and the Bible is a product of His Church.Jesus no where mentions or teaches the Bible-Alone/written words alone is sufficient-does He?

Jesus saves,not the Bible.

Jn.17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Mark4
14The sower soweth the word.
15And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Luke 9
25For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Jn.3
31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn.1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jn.5
37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Jn.6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jn.6
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jn.8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Jn.12
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

There are more Nicea, but you get the idea. Everything that Jesus spoke was to bring us to a realization of eternal life through faith in Him. All of the words that are necessary to come to that realization are found in the bible. If you like I can post a number of those verses.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Are you saying they weren’t?

How does him asking “How do you know?” produce a question like this?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I’ve looked into it pretty carefully, and this seems to be what the really good historians have come up with. I’m sure you’ll get something different from your run-of-the-mill Catholic apologist, but I tend to defer to the work of first-rate historians. That’s just me, though.

You mean it is just you to assume that Catholic apologists are wrong. I do not read any history of the Church. I find it boring, but I do admire their work. I was just making a logical demonstration of why you are wrong, objectively. In any case, I do read apologetics and clearly some history is in those but I put those in the File 13 part of my brain.

You have already underestimated my intelligence. Please do not do it again.

I also don’t think I’m being anachronistic. I believe you are, and that you really have to be, to some extent. As for me, your argument was very convincing, but it didn’t quite succeed in swaying me.

Well of course, you believe I am. I do not believe YOU are anachronistic. I just know that what you said was anachronistic. I was not trying to sway you. I was just trying to shed some light on some false assumptions. You clearly disagree and it will be impasse no matter what.

If by “priest” you mean ἱερεύς, no, they were not Christian priests that had any kind of sacrificial responsibilities placed on them by God. They were known as presbyters, or elders. It was a leadership role within Christianity, but it was not the same as that of ἱερεύς.

Well, fortunately for you, this is all Greek to me. I will defer you to the first-rate Catholic apologist historians on this one. I am sure you know where to look.

No, I’m really not. I’m assuming that the Catholic measure of unity between one Catholic and another is a common submission to Rome, common membership in the CC, and a reception of Catholic sacraments that is held in common. This is how Catholics become united to each other and to the Catholic Church.

I then go on to say nearly all Christians in the West used to be united to each other and to the CC in the Catholic sense of unity, but that changed when a huge number of Catholics stopped being Catholics and stopped being united to the CC in this way. When that happened, that was an example of disunity according to the Catholic definition of unity. Ever since then, the Catholic Church has continued to become more and more disunited as it continues to lose market share of Christianity in the West.

I believe there is only one Christian Church in the world, and every Christian belongs to it by virtue of being a Christian. (I don’t believe this is synonymous with the Catholic Church, but that should go without saying). I believe in a unity of all Christians that has nothing to do with sacraments or ecclesial membership; consequently, the Catholic definition of unity has no use to me personally. It has some use for you, though, and you believe the reception of Catholic sacraments and formal Catholic membership does cause some significant form of unity to happen between you and the Church as well as between you and other Catholics. According to your understanding of how unity is related to these things, the Reformation had a lot to do with the state of unity between Catholics and the brand-new group of former Catholics as well as the unity between the Reformers and the Church.

I still disagree and you already know why. No sense in repeating. That last sentence has absolutely nothing to do with my understanding. You only think it does. My understanding of my understanding is my understanding. Your understanding of my understanding is NOT my understanding. See the difference?

If there is only one Christian Church comprised of Catholics, Baptists, Lutheran, Methodist, etc…, that would mean that there is no Truth. This is the major part I disagree with all Christians being part of a single Church. There would be 0 unity. “That they may be one as we are one.” (Somewhere in John). Contradictory “Truths” cannot be one. The Father begat the Truth (Christ) and it is protected by the Holy Spirit from untruth. There HAS to be one true Christian Church that does not have contradictory Truths (Faith and Works vs. Faith Alone for example). One has to be right. They cannot all be true. With this said (and I am unsure the Church’s stand on this but I think I am clear), all Christians are partially in Truth. Christ’s Atonement, Resurrection, Ascension, Heaven, Hell, Holy Trinity (most), Virgin Birth, etc… They have parts of the whole Truth. Unity would have to have the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. Needless to say, the debatable part is my belief that this is all in the Catholic Church.

Unity in the Catholic sense has to do with Truth, whether that be through the Truth of the Sacraments, doctrine or what not. So, your judgment that the Catholic Church’s unity was disunity is wrong. It might have been in jeopardy, but there was never disunity INSIDE the Church. The Reformers were clearly OUTSIDE the Church by changing their own personal beliefs on some things.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Jn.6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jn.6
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jn.8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Jn.12
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

There are more Nicea, but you get the idea. Everything that Jesus spoke was to bring us to a realization of eternal life through faith in Him. All of the words that are necessary to come to that realization are found in the bible. If you like I can post a number of those verses.

So, Truth is irrelevant. All that one needs to know is that Christ died for us and that is it. If we disagree, then we disagree. Who cares? Christ died for me.

This is the epitome of trivializing Christ’s works and teachings. “If you take a proof-text out of context, it’s considered a pre-text.” In this case, “context” is Scriptures. And that last sentence is something I have a problem with. You take them all out of context. Sure, some verses are more inspirational and meaningful than others. Even more so, some mean more to one person and less to another. The Word of God (in the Catholic meaning of it) is not for slinging a verse to win a match. I hope one day you take it for more than that.

The Bible is not a textbook! When will some Sola Scriptura advocates and most atheists understand this?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here lies one of many dilema’s with sola scripturalist from John1:14 “and the Word became flesh”. You have posted a list of scriptures pertaining to the Word as if letters on a page prove your new “bible only” faith.

The problem I see with your sola scriptura, is that the Word became flesh. So where does that leave your bible only belief system, If the Word became flesh? where do you find Jesus flesh on pages of a letter?

A sola scripturalists cannot justify his/her belief on the spirit because there is no such thing as a “symbolic” spirit in sacred scripture. For when Jesus states “it is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh availeth nothing” has nothing to do with sola scriptura, because the Holy Spirit is a person, and all biblical spirits are living beings.

What makes you believe that Jesus is referencing sola scriptura here when he refers to the Spirit? Do sola scripturalist have a contradicting faith to scripture by making a false pretense that Spirit in the New Testament has a symbolic meaning to sola scriptura?

If your sola scriptura faith can produce the Word became flesh, when God makes his dwelling with the human race, then you cease to be a “sola scripturalist” and there is no such thing as a symbolic Jesus in sacred scripture.

I cannot find in your reasoning, that the True presence of the Word of God made flesh can be found on letters on a page, in “sola scriptura”? if your depending on a symbolic Spirit from scriptures to prove a bible only (sola scriptura) faith, from letters on a page? When the bible itself makes it clear that the Word became flesh.

So your list of scriptures only prove that the Word of God is living and Truth in the flesh (body, blood, soul and divinity) of Jesus Christ, your list never proves “sola scriptura” as you believe it today, your list only proves that one does not have the Word of God without the Word taking on flesh.

The Catholic faith has no biblical contradictions in the Word of God taking on flesh, The Catholic faith possesses Jesus True body, blood soul and divinity presence according to the Word of God.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; **whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” **
53
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. **54
**Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, **and I will raise him on the last day.
55
**For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. **

Peace be with you

Richard Kastner;7469975]Jn.17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jn.1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, **that everyone who sees **the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; **whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” **
53
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. **54
**Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, **and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

Peace be with you

Jn.1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In this passage from Jn. 6 Jesus is telling us to feast on the word Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[onenow1]

Jn.1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In this passage from Jn. 6 Jesus is telling us to feast on the word Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The Jews knew what Jesus meant in the verses below, and they walked away, Jesus was even willing to let the apostles go away and folks are still murmuring and in denial.

John 6: 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves 51, I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Jews knew what Jesus meant in the verses below, and they walked away, Jesus was even willing to let the apostles go away and folks are still murmuring and in denial.

John 6: 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves 51, I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Peace

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again Jesus is telling us to feast on His words.

Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[jlhargus]

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again Jesus is telling us to feast on His words.

Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jn6:48 I AM THAT BREAD OF LIFE. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF ANY MAN EAT OF THIS BRREAD, he shall live for ever**: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, EXCEPT**** ye EAT the FLESH of the Son of man, and DRINK HIS BLOOD, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso EATETH MY FLESH, and DRINKETH MY BLOOD, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For MY FLESH is meat INDEED, and MY BLOOD is drink INDEED. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.**

 

[GaryTaylor]

I believe Luther was in error. This does not mean I think he was wrong for wanting to reform the Church. You can’t reform what you leave and are no longer a part of. I think once he made his mind up, things snowballed and even Martin Luther couldn’t stop them. From what I’ve read, politics played a major part in those who supported Martin Luther. We also know that even some of his followers left him, from what I believe was his teaching on interpretation of scriptures and how it was received by his followers. We all know that some of his beliefs are no longer held by some Protestants today.

Please understand that I don’t think the divide between Catholics and most Protestants is not as wide as some make it out to be and I’m certainly in no position to judge anyone.

Well said.

 

[jlhargus]

Jn6:48 ** Jn1:1 The WORD was MADE FLESH.

I AM THAT BREAD OF LIFE**. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF ANY MAN EAT OF THIS BRREAD, he shall live for ever****: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, EXCEPT**** ye EAT the FLESH of the Son of man, and DRINK HIS BLOOD, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso EATETH MY FLESH, and DRINKETH MY BLOOD, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For MY FLESH is meat INDEED, and MY BLOOD is drink INDEED. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again Jesus is telling us to feast on His words.

Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

“Feast on His words”? What on God’s green Earth does that even mean? So, “eat my flesh and drink my blood” really means “feast on my words”? Is this your way of dodging the Eucharist? I would accept that He means to “Feast on the Word of God”. Although it is still weird, it is still true. But, “feast on His words” is just absurd.

And John 6:63 actually proves our point. I am not sure why Protestants use that as a proof-text. The Eucharist is Jesus, the Word of God. “The Word was made flesh” should shed light on the fact that His spirit (the Word) IS in hypostatic union with His Body (His flesh). The Eucharist is both His divinity AND humanity because in Catholic belief about Christ, you cannot have one without the other because He is fully divine AND fully human. “The Word was MADE flesh.” It does not say “The Word was WITH His flesh” as you seem to equate the two.

In any case, where in John 6:63 does it say “symbol”? Does “spirit” mean “symbol”? Does “Holy Spirit” just mean “Holy Symbol”? If He was being symbolic, I need some questions answered:

1. How does one eat His Body, only symbolically? (Same applies for drinking His blood.)
2. How does one symbolically eat His Body, or anything for that matter?
3. How does one eat His symbolic Body?
4. How does one symbolically eat His symbolic Body?
5. How does one symbolically eat His symbolic Body, symbolically?
6. Why did most of His disciples leave and He not correct them by saying it was merely symbolic? (If He was merely symbolic, questions 1-5 deserve answers.)

In any event, Jesus clearly commanded us to eat His body and drink His blood. Catholics believe it is literal, but most Protestants think it is symbolic. “Feast on His words” is wrong. Have you ever feasted on words? The debate here is whether He is being literal or symbolic. But, it was a clear command to feast on His Body and Blood. If it was merely a symbol, those above questions deserve answers because He still said “eat my flesh and drink my blood” (or something like that).

If and only if it is true that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both fully divine AND fully human (the two being inseparable), then the Eucharist has more Truth than we can imagine.

 

[onenow1]

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again Jesus is telling us to feast on His words.

Yes indeed we should, as He says the spirit gives life so obeying His words as He commanded is in order>>> John 6:48 I am the bread of life
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

The incarnation the word was made flesh and nothing shall be impossible for God.

God Bless

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It was NOT “Catholics who made the Bible in the first place” It was God.

Richard,

The undivided Church that gave us the Bible was the Catholic Church, in my honest opinion. God gave us a Church and then inspired men of that Church to write, what we know to be, scriptures.

Why are you excluding the Church as a gift from God? It appears to be what you’re saying in your argument. Christ built a Church, as told to us in scriptures. Christ did not write, or order scribed, anything. He commanded them to go out and ‘preach’ the Gospel.

I’d be interested in seeing your explanation of the Bible being in the Catholic Church’s possession exclusively for hundreds of years, until the reformation.