I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[PRmerger]

Stop signs are not absolutely binding, either.

“Um…Officer? I don’t think I deserve a ticket because my friend on the CAFs, Larkin, told me that stop signs are not absolutely binding.”

“Here’s your ticket, Ms. PR. You can discuss that stupid logic with the judge if you care to, but I aint buying it.”

 

[PRmerger]

No, no

I definitely say no to the “always” in both these claims. Parenting teaches one that neither of these is ALWAYS true.

When is parenting an exception to the truths that it is “always good to want to help” and “it is always bad to want to hurt”.

I’m scratching my head trying to think of what you might mean…
Immunizations? When I immunized my babies I didn’t want to hurt them. Isn’t that always good?

Wanting to help them with their science project by letting them do it themselves? That’s helping them…isn’t that always good?

Letting them make a mistake and see the natural consequence of their action? Isn’t that helping them? Isn’t that good?

Whatever could you mean, Larkin?

 

[larkin31]

We are conceived in sin. Therefore, we are all, regardless of our temporal age, fallen sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. As a result, we deserve only judgment. The only one who can mete that judgment out, however, is God. Which He did, through His chosen people.

But if you say that they are all born in sin, then you have made the judgment, no? And does this mean that they deserve to be killed in their wombs? I have never heard this argued from a Christian before. Does God ever say that all children are sinful, even those not yet born?

Is there a Lutheran document outlining this dogma somewhere?

 

[TriuneUnity]

But if you say that they are all born in sin, then you have made the judgment, no? And does this mean that they deserve to be killed in their wombs? I have never heard this argued from a Christian before. Does God ever say that all children are sinful, even those not yet born?

No, because I am not making the pronouncement, Scripture makes the pronouncement.
Rom 3:10: "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one.” This doesn’t exclude infants. Psalm 51:5 is equally clear. The wages of sin is death. Do infants die?

Is there a Lutheran document outlining this dogma somewhere?

wels.net/what-we-believe/questions-answers/salvation/original-sin

 

[larkin31]

No, because I am not making the pronouncement, Scripture makes the pronouncement.
Rom 3:10: "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one.” This doesn’t exclude infants. Psalm 51:5 is equally clear. The wages of sin is death. Do infants die?

Is it simply a fetus’s possible mortality that indicates its sinfulness? And is the the claim that “none are righteous” as saying that “unborn children are sinful and deserving of slaughter by God if God so chooses”? If God chose to kill your wife and children simply for being mortal beings (original sin), would you accept this theologically? Your faith would be sound?

wels.net/what-we-believe/questions-answers/salvation/original-sin

Thanks, I will look into this.

 

[larkin31]

wels.net/what-we-believe/questions-answers/salvation/original-sin

Here is the most relevant passage from this link:

ORIGINAL SIN

I have been having a hard time trying to understand original sin and how salvation is given, yet also chosen. How does original sin and the inability of man to bring himself to God work for man’s salvation?

Answer: In a word, it doesn’t. Original sin is the Bible’s teaching that we are by nature spiritually blind (Acts 26:18), spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) enemies of God (Ephesians 2:3, Romans 8:7). Because of our sinful nature, we aren’t able to choose God or to save ourselves. Even if we could do those things, our sinful human nature wouldn’t want to.

Thanks. Interesting. I respect your faith. But I disagree with this assessment of the human inability to bring about our own “rebirth.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Is it simply a fetus’s possible mortality that indicates its sinfulness?

Mortality itself indicates sinfulness. Read Romans ch. 5 on this matter.

And is the the claim that “none are righteous” as saying that “unborn children are sinful and deserving of slaughter by God if God so chooses”? If God chose to kill your wife and children simply for being mortal beings (original sin), would you accept this theologically? Your faith would be sound?

Who would I be to answer back to God? He is God, I am not. Every breath that I take is borrowed from Him. God does not adhere to a standard of goodness. He is the standard of goodness. Whatever happens, the Lord of the earth will always do what is right.

However, one must consider the entirety of the circumstances involved in the invasion of Canaan by the Israelites. It was for a specific redemptive purpose. The Canaanites who were saved (such as Rahab), were saved by the eventual descendant of the Israelites, Christ Himself. Part of the reason that Canaan was invaded was to further God’s plan to redeem humanity through His Son.

The issue of God’s holiness is at the heart of those types of history recorded in the Old Testament. It was because of His holiness that the act was ordained. On the one hand to punish the Canaanites, and on the other to prepare a land and a nation for a holy purpose.

 

[larkin31]

Mortality itself indicates sinfulness. Read Romans ch. 5 on this matter.

Who would I be to answer back to God? He is God, I am not. Every breath that I take is borrowed from Him. God does not adhere to a standard of goodness. He is the standard of goodness. Whatever happens, the Lord of the earth will always do what is right.

However, one must consider the entirety of the circumstances involved in the invasion of Canaan by the Israelites. It was for a specific redemptive purpose. The Canaanites who were saved (such as Rahab), were saved by the eventual descendant of the Israelites, Christ Himself. Part of the reason that Canaan was invaded was to further God’s plan to redeem humanity through His Son…

This is not what the writers of the Torah believed, nor is it what Jewish scholars today believe. This is not a persuasive explanation of the purpose of the plagues of Egypt, nor the sufferings of Job, nor the slaughter in the great Flood, nor the deaths in Sodom and Gomorrah. If your point is that God kept killing people of all ages several times over to get the world ready for Jesus, I just don’t see the logic nor the theological rationale in that at all. Nor do I even see how they are later “ready.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

This is not what the writers of the Torah believed, nor is it what Jewish scholars today believe. This is not a persuasive explanation of the purpose of the plagues of Egypt, nor the sufferings of Job, nor the slaughter in the great Flood, nor the deaths in Sodom and Gomorrah. If your point is that God kept killing people of all ages several times over to get the world ready for Jesus, I just don’t see the logic nor the theological rationale in that at all. Nor do I even see how they are later “ready.”

I did not say that that is the case in every scenario throughout human history. I stated it was the purpose of the invasion of Canaan. I believe it was the view of the writers of the Torah, clearly. As to what modern Jewish scholars think… I don’t really care, not to be blunt about it. Since they reject Christ, they obviously aren’t going to link any events in the Torah to anything Messianic about Christ. However, God does not need an apologist for what He has done throughout history. Anything that He has done has been just and with good reason.

 

[1beleevr]

We are conceived in sin. Therefore, we are all, regardless of our temporal age, fallen sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. As a result, we deserve only judgment. The only one who can mete that judgment out, however, is God. Which He did, through His chosen people.

When you say we are conceived in sin, you speak the truth! Does the WE include ALL born after the fall?

 

[1beleevr]

I am sure you are a lovely Catholic and for that I am sure you are very happy. I cannot be 100% Catholic for one reason I do not believe in a lot of what the CC teaches to be truth. I also have seen a lot of unkind Catholics here that make rude remarks towards people who do not agree with them, I have not seen this so much in the Parish I attend but here is a different story. So I am mostly Protestant and will always remain that way and see ya when Jesus comes back

You are right that we should be a good example! People should be able to see Jesus in you!

 

[1beleevr]

I think you have got that wrong. Catholics know that their faith (not them, but their faith) is superior and there is nothing wrong with that. A person who knows that the earth revolves around the sun posseses superior knowledge to the one who still maintains that the earth is the centre of the universe. This is a mere acknowledgement of fact. Nothing wrong with that.

I wonder how you feel about the pagans and non-Christians. Do you think they are as enlightened as you? Do you think their religion is equal to yours?

When meeting them, would you say to them that everything is okay they do not have to believe in Jesus because what they believe is on par with what you believe? Or do you think to yourself that these people are misguided?
Aaah, but how do you know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who guided you in your belief?

That is because you focus too much on the attitude. Focus on the arguments. That’s what most people who converted did. They did not look at the behaviour or attitude of Tom, Doris and Harry. They just looked at the teachings. They studied. Don’t let the bickering sidetrack you from pursuing the truth. That is just the devil distracting you from going after Truth. Seek truth.

Well, hello Sister benedictus; long time no hear! And I am not wrong. You assume to know how and what I feel, when I interact with people of different faiths! I have had heated and sometimes negative debates with members of other faiths also, but it seems to me that the catholics are the most vocal and uncharitable My friend George, a catholic co-worker, said GD it three(3) times during a debate about legalism; and about five F-bombs! And the negative attitudes do not shake my faith, rather they stretch it, growing me by how I deal with it. And I know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. just as we revolve,(or should) around the SON! And Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to me to guide me into Truth, and He does! Listen, I deal with difficult people everyday, and get paid to do it. Doesn’t mean I have to go to church and get blasted! Although if I were catholic, they wouldn’t have the attitude, right?

 

[TriuneUnity]

When you say we are conceived in sin, you speak the truth! Does the WE include ALL born after the fall?

All except Christ.

 

[DeusVult09]

Well speaking as an ex-protestant many if not most protestants view Catholicism as being pagan Mary and saint worship. Catholics are seen as not following the bible, being polythiestic and being idol worshipers. Fundamentalist Pentecostals see Catholicism as being the “whore of Babylon”. Likewise many Pentecostals view their teachings as a corruption of the earliest form of Christianity which was Pentecostalism known back then as “the way” (that is utter nonsense as Pentecostalism didn’t exist till the 1800’s). the catholic clergy is seen as corrupt and all being child molesters, the pope in league with Satan and has a satanic counterpart known as the black pope in the church, papal infallibility is viewed as making the pope perfect like god and fully divine. Have I left anything out?

Oh yes! Mr Chick and his fundamentalsit followers believe the Jesuits are a dark satanic order that started communism, fascism, ww1, ww2, the cold war, assassinated JFK and Lincoln, sunk the titanic and started islam. I think that’s everything!.

 

[1beleevr]

All except Christ.

Hallelujah, we are on the same page! I am feeling rather giddy today, it is my spiritual birthday today! 43 years in Christ!!!

 

[tweetymom]

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Hallelujah, we are on the same page! I am feeling rather giddy today, it is my spiritual birthday today! 43 years in Christ!!!

great!!! Congratulations and may Gods love and Spirit continue to shine in your life. You are a great witness.

 

[Cinette]

Well speaking as an ex-protestant many if not most protestants view Catholicism as being pagan Mary and saint worship. Catholics are seen as not following the bible, being polythiestic and being idol worshipers. Fundamentalist Pentecostals see Catholicism as being the “whore of Babylon”. Likewise many Pentecostals view their teachings as a corruption of the earliest form of Christianity which was Pentecostalism known back then as “the way” (that is utter nonsense as Pentecostalism didn’t exist till the 1800’s). the catholic clergy is seen as corrupt and all being child molesters, the pope in league with Satan and has a satanic counterpart known as the black pope in the church, papal infallibility is viewed as making the pope perfect like god and fully divine. Have I left anything out?

Oh yes! Mr Chick and his fundamentalsit followers believe the Jesuits are a dark satanic order that started communism, fascism, ww1, ww2, the cold war, assassinated JFK and Lincoln, sunk the titanic and started islam. I think that’s everything!.

I live in Africa and watch EWTN often. Through EWTN I have learned much about the Catholic Church. I have also seen many programmes with many converts from Protestantism - Marcus Grodi, Thomas Howard, Msg Stuart Swetland, Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins (revert - was protestant Minister for a time), Kevin O’Brien (was atheist) and so on - so many wonderful people who are devoted to the Church and who contribute enormously. Isn’t it interesting how the layman’s role has changed in the Church? Wonderful! Wonderful! The program The Journey Home which is about converts to the CC (many ex protestant ministers) features each week and has done so for the past 12 years or more.

The Holy Spirit is doing a great job. Yes we have our problems and I believe that the purge which is taking place after the abuse scandal will do us a lot of good.

The OP chose an interesting topic and look the thread has grown to over 1000 postings. I hope that some seeds have been planted. I want everybody to know the Catholic Church as I do and learn about the fullness of truth.

God bless all
Cinette

 

[1beleevr]

“Um…Officer? I don’t think I deserve a ticket because my friend on the CAFs, Larkin, told me that stop signs are not absolutely binding.”

“Here’s your ticket, Ms. PR. You can discuss that stupid logic with the judge if you care to, but I aint buying it.”

Funny you should mention stop signs! A lady ran one on Tuesday, and almost hitme; smiled at me and went on her merry way! Stop signs are put up to tell us to be aware that other traffic is coming, and that we should stop, for safety’s sake. Do we have to stop? Well apparently some people don’t always believe so. God puts stop signs in our lives, and sometimes we blow right through them So, whether you do a “rolling” stop, or flat out run it; it is your choice. Tghe cop ain buyin’ it!

 

[Jonny_Pollock]

If a person resists the Holy Spirit to the degree that he apostasizes from the faith, yes, that person returns to a state of spiritual death. The only reason we have spiritual life is because of the indwelling presence of the Spirit. When the Spirit is resisted, He no longer dwells within the believer, who therefore, dies spiritually. Such a person has returned to the bondage of the world, the flesh, and the devil. Pertinent passages here are Luke 8:13; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Heb. 3:12, 6:4-6. Of course, on a pastoral level, we shouldn’t confuse falling into temptation and struggles with faith as evidence that a person is no longer a Christian. Since we can only see a persons actions, we have to base those decisions on whether they still profess to have faith, but are in a difficult situation.

A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation. Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God’s Word in a person’s heart. Therefore, a return to faith would be just as monergistic as a person’s first conversion (or baptism, as the case may be).

These statements concerning Luthren theology are actually not true!

Book of Concord, Augsburg confession:IV “It is also taught among us that we cannot obtain forgiveness of sin and righteousness before God by our own merits…but by grace, for Christ’s sake, through faith, when we believe that Christ suffered and died for us and that for his sake our sin is forgiven and righteousness and and eternal life are given to us.”

Lutherens believe that one is justified by faith ALONE, by believing that Jesus died for you.

Paragragh XII in the same document states that “those who have fallen after baptism can recieve forgiveness of sins whenever they are converted, and the church ought to impart absolution to those who return to repentance”

Repentence is then defined as “contrition, that is, terror smiting the conscience with a knowledge of sin, and the other is faith, which is born of the gospel, or of absolution, believes that sins are forgiven for Christ’s grace has been obtained through Christ.”

Luther redefined “repentence” as a knowledge of evil that makes you scared, and again grace is obtained by faith ALONE. No real repentance is needed.

Furthermore, the W.E.L.S. statement of faith claims in IV:7 “We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ.” Lutherens believe that the Holy Spirit puppeteers you into salvation.

We are justified freely by God’s grace in the Sacrament of Baptism, but like the man who buried his one talent, one cannot neglect it or it will be taken away. The entire gospel is an adomonition and a warning to live out the gospel! Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and caluminate you: that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven" Matt.5:44-45 and “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 7:21

Faith is not only believing that Jesus died on the cross, it is believing everything that Jesus TAUGHT and DOING it. This is the path of salvation. I’m not saying that there aren’t many righteous Lutherens, I’m just pointing out that Luthern doctrine is contrary to the Gospel and it is being misrepresented and candy-coated here.

Peace in Christ,

Jonny Pollock
.

 

[PRmerger]

Funny you should mention stop signs! A lady ran one on Tuesday, and almost hitme; smiled at me and went on her merry way!

Well, *I’m *not going to take credit for saving you from being hit, but…see my signature about praying for those I dialogue with? Someone’s guardian angel was watching!

Stop signs are put up to tell us to be aware that other traffic is coming, and that we should stop, for safety’s sake. Do we have to stop? Well apparently some people don’t always believe so. God puts stop signs in our lives, and sometimes we blow right through them So, whether you do a “rolling” stop, or flat out run it; it is your choice. Tghe cop ain buyin’ it!