I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

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JRKH said:
Yes it does seem that Mary is a bit of a sticking point for many non-catholics.

Peace
James
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Honestly, I am still working on the Catholic appreciation of Mary. I witness it, I acknowledge it, but, I do not fully share it. It is not a sticking point for me, though. I do think Joseph gets the short end of the stick, even in the Catholic Church.

I especially appreciate the Sacraments.

I like this from Publisher:

“Sacramental life…each moment…each day…each meal…each bath…each rain shower…each moment is an opportunity for Sacrament…the intersection of the Divine with the mundane…to occur. “Sacrament” occurs…or at least has potential to occur at any time…life is a sacrament…”

It reminded me of St. Thérèse and her Little Way:
romancatholicism.org/therese2.htm
"St Therese translated “the little way” in terms of a commitment to the tasks and to the people we meet in our everyday lives. "

“Live out your days with confidence in God’s love for you. Recognize that each day is a gift in which your life can make a difference by the way you choose to live it. Put hope in a future in which God will be all and love will consume your spirit. Choose life, not the darkness of pettiness and greed. St Therese knew the difference love makes by allowing love to be the statement she made each day of her life.”
 
JRKH said:
👍
Of course I don’t want to imply that there have been any “attacks” so far. But I agree that the thread will be more interesting if we hold of “debates” as you say.

Peace
James
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Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that. I’ve just seen other threads get ‘defensive’ and go downhill. I agree with you that more will be shared if we just hear what others have to say. We can learn from those we may not necessarily agree with if we really listen to them. (Our priest is encouraging us to improve our listening skills during Lent - with God and with others.) Who honestly sees eye-to-eye with their best friends 100% of the time? Let charity and love prevail.

Peace,
Linda
 
Jimmy_B said:
Your thoughts?
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My reasons for not being in RCC are very complex probably one could say soul searching. I’ve been drawn to a more Orthodox Church like the Eastern Churches.The problem is in the area I live there are no Eastern Churches.
Peace
 
How does one follow a church that was born out of a disobedient Catholic priest? He was a member of the One, True, Church…then became a heretic…and a new, entirely separate, false religion was founded based on him…how can one honestly and intellectually buy into this fake religion and his distortions on God? I am not trying to be inflammatory, I honestly want to know…because logically and intellectually, it doesn’t add up or make sense. How do you explain away his ordination and Catholic priesthood? Was he once a heretic in your opinion and then saw the light? How exactly does that work?
TriuneUnity said:
I believe the teachings of the confessions of my church are accurate to the teachings of Scripture and the apostolic witness. Whereas I don’t believe the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are. Therefore, I’m not. The same reason I’m not Presbyterian, Methodist, or Baptist.
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BrianH said:
I do not imagine there are many people on here that have read the Ante-Nicene fathers much more than me.
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In the index of the ANF, there are listed fewer refrences to Mary than in the New Testament. One thing, and I think you will agree with me Brian is that while it is easy to find a passage in the writings of the ANFs that seem to back up a particular dogma, it is just as easy to find 15 other passages from other ANF writers imply the opposite. Several of the ANFs (Origen to name one) were deemed heretics.

The ANFs, for me are of interest to show the historical development of doctrine. Especally the influence of greek thought into the church. You may not agree with me on this point but I’m certain that would would agree that the ECF writings are not Scripture.

One other thing Brian, you are a much nicer person than I am. I say this because in your resopnse you give a reasonable explanation as to why you are not Catholic. Our good friend crazzeto (aka… Mordak the sledgehammer) then proceeds to lecture you on your evil ways under the assumption that if you hear it just one more time, you will break for Rome. I personally would be inclined to be insulted.

Take care,
Jom
 
I understand why Mary and the Saints can be such a tripping stone who people who aren’t Catholic, and many people who perhaps ARE! Many Catholics do give off an odd impression of what they’re doing, even if it’s a misunderstanding.

I’ve never understood this on my own level though. The way I see Mary is my mother. I don’t have a mother, she was never around, so instead, I speak to my Mother in Heaven. And the Saints? I feel they’re my friends. I guess my prayers to them are more the “talk to” kind, much differnt than how I speak to God and Jesus. A lot of times I get home, plop on my bed, stare at my ceiling and go, Mom, you won’t BELIEVE the day I had! 😛
 
michaeldaniels said:
How does one follow a church that was born out of a disobedient Catholic priest? He was a member of the One, True, Church…then became a heretic…and a new, entirely separate, false religion was founded based on him…how can one honestly and intellectually buy into this fake religion and his distortions on God? I am not trying to be inflammatory, I honestly want to know…because logically and intellectually, it doesn’t add up or make sense. How do you explain away his ordination and Catholic priesthood? Was he once a heretic in your opinion and then saw the light? How exactly does that work?
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So basically you are asking me when I stopped beating my wife? I appreciate your opinions about my church and Martin Luther. However, I cannot answer a straw man caricature.
 
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I swam the river TO Lutheranism…

WHY? A complex question and one difficult to address without the possibility of offense. And, from my prespective, the “swim” wasn’t far or long. There is MUCH we have in common. Nor was my “swim” a negative one, I have no regrets for my years in Catholicism. I was blessed richly and deeply there, and I’m grateful for that! And I CERTAINLY regard The Catholic Church as a fully valid denomination, one I hold in considerable esteem. I regard all believers in her as my FULL and UNseparated and in every sense equal brothers and sisters in Christ. And I regard nothing it officially teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scripture and Tradition. I realize none of this is mutual, but that’s okay with me - it doesn’t turn my heart negative. When I left The Catholic Church, I told my priest that I probably agree with 95% of what I was taught. He laughed and said, (this is a verbatim quote, I’m sure) “That’s a whole lot better than most Catholics, Josiah! It’s probably better than a whole lot of priests!” He may be right on both counts… In any case, I love and respect the CC.

While I “hold on” to MUCH, there are some things I “left”…
  1. The Theology of Glory, for the Theology of the Cross.
  2. The insistance on RCC individualism, institutionalism and unaccountability for a sense of community, humility and accountability.
  3. While I don’t deny some RCC dogmas, I don’t docilicly just accept them as dogma (Infallibility of the Pope, Transubstantiation are a couple of examples) and thus, according to CCC 87, I cannot be a faithful and true Catholic. I don’t want to live a lie or as all too many of my Catholic friends, live in a “don’t ask and I won’t tell” or “I say I believe this at church but at home I believe this” type of life. For me, my departure was largely a matter of personal integrity and honesty.
  4. Again, while I agree with very MUCH in Catholicism - I found all of that in Lutheranism, so I had to “give up” nothing at all.
  5. While I probably agree with 95% of what’s in the Catechism, my largest issue were with Catholic ecclesiology and epistemology. The first I saw as unsubstantiated and divisive, the second as well… not sound, this especially became large to me as I studied the LDS and cults in America.
All that said, I pray daily for God’s richest blessings to The Catholic Church and her members, ministers and Holy Father. And on those occasions when I participate at a Catholic Mass, I embrace all there FULLY even if it’s not mutual.

I hope that helps.

Pax
  • Josiah
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I am the only Roman Catholic in my family. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for them is Church tradition: (1) they don’t understand the seeming complexities of the Mass; they think that the use of incense is pagan in spite of its Jewish roots,(2) they don’t understand Marian theology, (3) they don’t understand transubstantiation in spite of its strong Biblical basis and (4) they don’t understand the necessity of confessing one’s sins to a priest.

Fortunately, the issues don’t come up very often but when they do I am usually ready for their cliched questions.
 
AmericanJosiah said:
While I “hold on” to MUCH, there are some things I “left”…
  1. The Theology of Glory, for the Theology of the Cross.
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Very good… the linchpin on which the Gospel turns.

“I will glory not because I am righteous but because I am redeemed; I will glory not because I am free from sins but because my sins are forgiven me. I will glory not because I have done good nor because someone has done good to me but because Christ is my advocate with the Father and because the blood of Christ has been shed for me.” - St. Ambrose

Which Synod are you in?
 
I was born into a hardcore Presbyterian family and raised in a Presbyterian megachurch. In that kind of setting, any young people who “go Catholic” are frowned upon. However, I found myself longing for weekly Communion and a restoration of reverence in worship, and I also believed strongly that bishops are necessary in the Church. I made my way to Anglicanism, which was as “far” as I could go and still get away with it. 😃 The Episcopal parish where I worship is as traditional and orthodox as it gets, so it has been a wonderful home. I guess I’m not Catholic yet because I love my parish so much. Doctrinally, I’m still wrestling with some Marian questions, but I do not mean to offend or stir up debate by saying that. 🙂 I’m just not yet accustomed to thinking of the Blessed Virgin quite like you do. But if Anglicanism falls or if our Lord won’t let me stay, the Catholic Church is the best destination. I’m just not quite there yet. There is much prayer and consideration required…
 
JRKH said:
Just from curiousity then - why are you not a “Lutheren Christian” or one of the others.
No baiting here, just curious since your post above really does not shed any light on the matter.

Peace
James
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Yeah, I intentionally was being ambiguous.

Well first there was no Lutheran church in the town where I grew up.

Second the group that was responsible for evangelizing me and leading me to Jesus Christ was primarily a Charismatic church in my community. So I guess you might say it is because the Lord started me down this path and I have seen no need to deviate from it.

No offense to either the Lutherans or Catholics here.
 
TriuneUnity said:
So basically you are asking me when I stopped beating my wife? I appreciate your opinions about my church and Martin Luther. However, I cannot answer a straw man caricature.
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Hey they said they were not being inflammatory…😃
 
I am sorry, but I never compared your faith to beating your wife…nor did I call you a wife beater. It is simply a real question. Martin Luther was a heretic who once was a Catholic Priest…it is not a straw man…it is a legitimate question, and it is a question you will not engage or defend because there is no plausible answer. Your denomination, and notice I call it a denomination because The Catholic Church can not possibly be a denomiation…it is The Church…everything else is separated and deficient for one reason or another:

Main Entry: de·nom·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: \di-ˌnä-mə-ˈnā-shən
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : an act of denominating
2 : a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)
3 : name, designation; especially : a general name for a category
4 : a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

— de·nom·i·na·tion·al -shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective

— de·nom·i·na·tion·al·ly adverb

You see, Lutheranism is an off-shoot of Catholicism…your religion is based in the most part on Catholicism, with some differences and inventions, that were created to reconcile God’s beliefs with a “man’s” beliefs…basically, Luther didn’t agree with God, so he formed his own belief system to justify those beliefs and expected God to conform instead of accepting God and The Church’s beliefs, despite not being able to understand them. We are to reconcile our beliefs with God, not the other way around. With that said, you have to admit that The Catholic Church is the One, True, Church, which existed for 1500+ years before your patriarch decided to corrupt and piece-meal The One, True, Church, in order to start his own. So I just have a hard time understanding how any logical, intelligent, person can follow a deficient faith that was determined to be a “true” faith by one man alone…and that very faith is in direct opposition to Tradition, Scripture, etc…To put it simply, it is a heresy.

Now that I have proven it isn’t a straw man argument, please retort.
TriuneUnity said:
So basically you are asking me when I stopped beating my wife? I appreciate your opinions about my church and Martin Luther. However, I cannot answer a straw man caricature.
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I am sorry, but I never compared your faith to beating your wife…nor did I call you a wife beater
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:rolleyes:
Loaded question, also known as complex question, presupposition, “trick question”, or plurium interrogationum (Latin, “of many questions”), is an informal fallacy or logical fallacy.[1] It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to be those that serve the questioner’s agenda.[1] **An example of this is the question “Are you still beating your wife/husband?” **Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a spouse, and having beaten them at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.[1]
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michaeldaniels is perfect proof of why these threads do not work. SOME Catholics simply cannot stand to have people give their opinions, when asked, and want, the ten thousandth thread on the same old same old questions.
 
BrianH said:
michaeldaniels is perfect proof of why these threads do not work. SOME Catholics simply cannot stand to have people give their opinions, when asked, and want, the ten thousandth thread on the same old same old questions.
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I agree with this to a large extent. The other thing I am annoyed by are those who are sure that one would be Catholic if they only understood the teachings, etc. Or that if one disagrees it has to be because they do not understand, or worse yet and incapable or unwilling to understand. I have to say, and I am sure it will cause much chagrin among the devout that I understand fully the Catholic positions. That said, I flat out reject some of the moral teachings the Catholic Church presents; I also don’t have confidence that the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) can be blindly trusted to provide one a moral compass.
 
Jimmy_B said:
http://fratres.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pope-benedict-xvi-blessing-of-the-host.jpg
I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?
This is a serious question, so please post your reason here… Please, don’t be afraid to voice your opinion and to defend your own particular denomination.
I am not the only Catholic here at CAF, or elsewhere, who wonders and wants to know the answer to this question.
If any Catholics, or any converts to Catholicism here, have any insight to the answer, or possible answer(s) to this question, then please post a response here.
Your thoughts?
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Well because the protestant churches worship way differently. Most protestant churches incorporate a lot of newer age teachings. They have long sermons which appeal to some people better and they have newer music, more comfortable seating. When I spoke to some protestants about scripture, they really didn’t doubt the CC teachings, they said that it seems on point, but they also said that they just don’t like Catholic mass. They don’t like all the ritualistic music and prayer and how much time we spend on the Eucharist. In a sense there are also many more responsibilities of being a Catholic, such as Communion, Confirmation, fasting, etc… and many people just don’t really want to spend all that time on things like that. So the biggest thing is just preference as opposed to bible teachings. I think the whole argument they use about CC doctrines is really only a deterrent from the real reason. At least that is the vibe I picked up from conversations.
 
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