I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Madaglan]

.

I swam the river TO Lutheranism…

WHY? A complex question and one difficult to address without the possibility of offense. And, from my prespective, the “swim” wasn’t far or long. There is MUCH we have in common. Nor was my “swim” a negative one, I have no regrets for my years in Catholicism. I was blessed richly and deeply there, and I’m grateful for that! And I CERTAINLY regard The Catholic Church as a fully valid denomination, one I hold in considerable esteem. I regard all believers in her as my FULL and UNseparated and in every sense equal brothers and sisters in Christ. And I regard nothing it officially teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scripture and Tradition. I realize none of this is mutual, but that’s okay with me - it doesn’t turn my heart negative. When I left The Catholic Church, I told my priest that I probably agree with 95% of what I was taught. He laughed and said, (this is a verbatim quote, I’m sure) “That’s a whole lot better than most Catholics, Josiah! It’s probably better than a whole lot of priests!” He may be right on both counts… In any case, I love and respect the CC.

While I “hold on” to MUCH, there are some things I “left”…

1. The Theology of Glory, for the Theology of the Cross.
2. The insistance on RCC individualism, institutionalism and unaccountability for a sense of community, humility and accountability.
3. While I don’t deny some RCC dogmas, I don’t docilicly just accept them as dogma (Infallibility of the Pope, Transubstantiation are a couple of examples) and thus, according to CCC 87, I cannot be a faithful and true Catholic. I don’t want to live a lie or as all too many of my Catholic friends, live in a “don’t ask and I won’t tell” or “I say I believe this at church but at home I believe this” type of life. For me, my departure was largely a matter of personal integrity and honesty.
4. Again, while I agree with very MUCH in Catholicism - I found all of that in Lutheranism, so I had to “give up” nothing at all.
5. While I probably agree with 95% of what’s in the Catechism, my largest issue were with Catholic ecclesiology and epistemology. The first I saw as unsubstantiated and divisive, the second as well… not sound, this especially became large to me as I studied the LDS and cults in America.

All that said, I pray daily for God’s richest blessings to The Catholic Church and her members, ministers and Holy Father. And on those occasions when I participate at a Catholic Mass, I embrace all there FULLY even if it’s not mutual.

I hope that helps.
Pax

• Josiah

I considered Lutheranism for a while.

While I found it in exterior similar to Latin Catholicism, I found it quite different from Catholicism in soteriology. The divine monergism of Lutheranism and the synergism of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) is one point of marked difference. I found the same marked difference in regards to the Mass: the Lutherans reject the sacrifice of the Mass whereas for Catholics it is central to the Mass.

Some of what Lutheranism teaches struck me as true, but many beliefs, such as divine mongergism and rejection of the sacrifice of the Mass, along with rejection of most of the sacraments, struck me as contrary to what the Church has taught since the beginning.

 

[Madaglan]

Because all of us Protestants are obviously stupid and make absolutely no sense, that is why of course (see I am not evading the question).

Thanks for being honest. :tiphat:

 

[JonNC]

I considered Lutheranism for a while.

While I found it in exterior similar to Latin Catholicism, I found it quite different from Catholicism in soteriology. The divine monergism of Lutheranism and the synergism of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) is one point of marked difference. I found the same marked difference in regards to the Mass: the Lutherans reject the sacrifice of the Mass whereas for Catholics it is central to the Mass.

Some of what Lutheranism teaches struck me as true, but many beliefs, such as divine mongergism and rejection of the sacrifice of the Mass, along with rejection of most of the sacraments, struck me as contrary to what the Church has taught since the beginning.

I may get pounced on for this, but I view the monergism of Lutheranism as related to justification only. Sanctification, OTOH, is synergistic, at least in my view.

Lutherans accept that the mass is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Lutherans do not “reject” other sacraments. We simply have a different definition of what a sacrament is, which includes, along with the institution of Christ and the promise of grace, a physical element.

Jon

 

[Mosacked]

Since you asked…my answer as follows:

1 - I believe the Bible to be already complete, there’s no need for additional books.
2 - I would rather speak to God directly than through a man (eg. Pope/priest).
3 - I believe God bestows His Holy Spirit to those who asks of Him. (ie direct communication)
4 - I believe the only way to Salvation is through Christ, (completely and without discount nor conditions. ie no purgatory, no indulgences etc).
5 - I believe the Sabbath is on Saturday as practised by the Jews since ancient of days.
6 - I believe there should be no images in my place of worship because God the invisible Spirit is my point of worship.
7 - I believe the only true church is spiritual in nature, because physical establishments are liable for corruption.

ETC.

PS. You don’t have to answer this, the above is my opinion.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I may get pounced on for this, but I view the monergism of Lutheranism as related to justification only. Sanctification, OTOH, is synergistic, at least in my view.

Lutherans accept that the mass is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Lutherans do not “reject” other sacraments. We simply have a different definition of what a sacrament is, which includes, along with the institution of Christ and the promise of grace, a physical element.

Jon

You won’t get pounced. Experiential, progressive sanctification is synergistic. That is certainly within the realm of confessional Lutheranism. There is an “already” aspect to sanctification which is monergistic… but the “not yet” definitely involves your reborn will making choices (we’re not Calvinists!)

 

[Roq12]

Just curious - what church/churches do you attend? Your English is better than my French (college major)!!

The Church of Sweden is a lutheran church and even though i seldom attend to it, that’s where i go.

Thank you! I guess all those years of american video games, books and comic payed off!

 

[LindaSK]

The Church of Sweden is a lutheran church and even though i seldom attend to it, that’s where i go.

**Thank you! I guess all those years of american video games, books and comic payed off! **

I would say so!

Welcome here!

I like your ‘Religion’: " Trying to fit the pieces together". I think Faith is a journey that should never end, no matter what ‘church’ we are sitting in. It is possible to get too ‘comfortable’ and think it is about us. God will meet us wherever we are if we let Him, then we can journey with Him. If we think we have it all ‘put together’, then we have stopped growing spiritually. We should always have a hunger to be closer to God through His Son, want to know more, try to understand more, and make every effort to live more like Him every day. My journey to the Catholic Church has been a curious one. I know I am where I am meant to be, but, I never run out of questions! And answers generate still more questions!! I am convinced I will NEVER fit ALL the pieces together, but He makes it worth the effort.

God bless.

Matthew 7:
7
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8
For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

 

[may_they_be_one]

Since you asked…my answer as follows:

2 - I would rather speak to God directly than through a man (eg. Pope/priest).
3 - I believe God bestows His Holy Spirit to those who asks of Him. (ie direct communication)
4 - I believe the only way to Salvation is through Christ, (completely and without discount nor conditions. ie no purgatory, no indulgences etc).
.

My interesting process of leaving/questioning the RCC:

*I was raised as a good practicing Catholic (mass every Sunday, holy days, etc),
*I behaved like a heathen (drinking, etc) as a teen and young adult (while still going to mass each Sunday)
*I started listening to Evangelical Christian radio in college (still going to mass)
*I had a major conversion through hearing the word preached on the radio, said an evangelical version of “a sinner’s prayer” in my heart as led on the radio
*I began reading my bible on my own outside of mass (now attending mass very JOYFULLY for first time ever), and had a true zeal to proclaim the Gospel of Salvation to basically anyone I met (never would have even talked about loving Jesus even with other Catholics before this)
*I stopped my heathen living, explored becoming a Franciscan brother or priest
*Instead, met & married a strong Catholic who experienced way too much heathen behavior at a Roman Catholic university (still attending mass and praying joyfully together)
*We tried to form stronger relationships with other young adult Catholics and deepen our obedience to Christ’s commands, and found many intellectual Catholics wanting to argue dogmatic/doctrinal/philosophical ideas with no visual outward commitment to become more perfect in holiness and proclaim the name of Jesus outside the four walls of a church building… (still attending mass)
*Then, out of curiosity visited a Vineyard (a type of evangelical/non-denominational) church a block from the Catholic church we were attending which had many young adults attending like ourselves (and the pastor was our neighbor)
*Started sharing our zeal for Christ with the other members, began actually raising our hands during song worship! (still attended mass, too, which the pastor encouraged us to do )
*Eventually stopped attending Sunday mass due to various factors, but still attend morning weekday mass as often as possible
*Realized my calling is to actually work for the unification and reconciliation of the ENTIRE body of Christ, which I’ve pursued the past 7 years, now using this forum!!!
*I am interestingly, an “Elder” in a non-denominational/pentecostal type mega-church made of many former Catholics , some of whom have really bad feelings about the RCC due to various bad experiences, deadness of faith, etc
*Still attending morning mass… and contending for some of the less-devisive RCC beliefs among my non-denom brethren at my mega-church (like honoring Mary, power of the eucharist–which is sometimes declared the actual body of Christ, and sometimes declared a representation of Christ…, not judging Catholics who they don’t know, and much more, whenever the Spirit gives an opportunity)

The reasons I haven’t “returned” as a “faithful” Catholic are many… I’m trying to share some of them (based on things I’ve learned in my non-Catholic churches) in the "non-Catholic religions forum, but again, seem to be met with members who always revert to the Churches written doctrines/teaching/theology, but never address the big question of why don’t we see more of what the RCC supposedly believes actually be put into practice by more of its leaders and followers…

PEACE, JOY & LOVE IN CHRIST!
Pray for unity (John 17:21)! We want the world to know HIM!!!

 

[Radical]

Well since you asked…here are the main reasons that I wouldn’t entertain the idea of becoming a Catholic (in no particular order):

1. Mary. The NT and the earliest church fathers give no hint that Mary continues to play any significant role in the salvation of men. IMHO this silence makes it virtually impossible/extremely unlikely that the early church could have viewed her as possessing the importance that the CC attributes to her.
2. The Eucharist, Mass and Transubstantiation. Given that the body is the phsyical component of a person (as opposed to mind or soul) and given that no physical change occurs, it seems bizarre that a “real bodily presence” is claimed. The earliest descriptions of Christian worship do not match the formality of the Mass and speak against the “separation” that exists between the Catholic priest and the congregation. Explanations of transubstantiation seem like pure bafflegab to me. IMHO the diversity that exists among the ECFs (wrt their eucharistic views) counts as strong evidence against a real bodily presence being taught from the outset.
3. Indulgences and the Treasury of Merit. The idea that merit can be stored in a treasury and then dispensed and set off against a punishment due for sin seems (IMHO) rather bizarre. It seems just wrong for these spirtual things to be dealt with in a fashion that seems akin to the trading of commodities.
4. Petrine Supremacy, Apostolic Succession and Monarchical Bishops. IMHO the NT and the historical rcord shows that these things, as defined by the CC, were not established by Christ. Although they serve to unify adherents, they also serve to prevent unification with non-adherents.

The foregoing are simply too significant to disregard. I wish there was a greater possibility of finding some sort of middle ground, but I would say that the chances are slim to nil.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I lifted most of this from another thread::A link to my testimony is in my signature, its in three parts on that thread, its kind of long but people have told me they were blessed having read it, people who have loved ones who are really lost and seem impossible to reach with the gospel tend to like it the most. In a nut shell my wife and I had committed adultery, and I was an IV meth addict. God brought me to my knees and I sought God with all my heart. I read the Bible from cover to cover and began looking at what different churches taught. I went first to one church then after a year we moved to another and have been there since. (8years) We have experienced a radical transformation. In our lives. We have a peace and joy that We NEVER dreamed possible. THANK YOU JESUS!

Why not Catholic. that would be a good question for the Catholic Church. I have never known a Catholic who ever had a possitive impact on my life(prior to joining this forum) I have met several people who have said they were raised Catholic but live like the world or who seamed to resent the church. some in NA or AA would say they were recovering Catholics like being Catholic had damged them. It was evangelical protestants who reached out to me with the gospel that changed my life. The only positive interactions with Catholics has been on this forum and I have enjoyed the fellowship (most of it) that I have found here. I have a much better understanding of why Catholics believe what they do , yet am not convinced that I should take my family away from the church that God used to transform our lives. there are also some Catholic teachings that I dont think I could accept.

 

[JRKH]

My interesting process of leaving/questioning the RCC:

*I was raised as a good practicing Catholic (mass every Sunday, holy days, etc),
*I behaved like a heathen (drinking, etc) as a teen and young adult (while still going to mass each Sunday)
*I started listening to Evangelical Christian radio in college (still going to mass)
*I had a major conversion through hearing the word preached on the radio, said an evangelical version of “a sinner’s prayer” in my heart as led on the radio
*I began reading my bible on my own outside of mass (now attending mass very JOYFULLY for first time ever), and had a true zeal to proclaim the Gospel of Salvation to basically anyone I met (never would have even talked about loving Jesus even with other Catholics before this)
*I stopped my heathen living, explored becoming a Franciscan brother or priest
*Instead, met & married a strong Catholic who experienced way too much heathen behavior at a Roman Catholic university (still attending mass and praying joyfully together)
*We tried to form stronger relationships with other young adult Catholics and deepen our obedience to Christ’s commands, and found many intellectual Catholics wanting to argue dogmatic/doctrinal/philosophical ideas with no visual outward commitment to become more perfect in holiness and proclaim the name of Jesus outside the four walls of a church building… (still attending mass)
*Then, out of curiosity visited a Vineyard (a type of evangelical/non-denominational) church a block from the Catholic church we were attending which had many young adults attending like ourselves (and the pastor was our neighbor)
*Started sharing our zeal for Christ with the other members, began actually raising our hands during song worship! (still attended mass, too, which the pastor encouraged us to do )
*Eventually stopped attending Sunday mass due to various factors, but still attend morning weekday mass as often as possible
*Realized my calling is to actually work for the unification and reconciliation of the ENTIRE body of Christ, which I’ve pursued the past 7 years, now using this forum!!!
*I am interestingly, an “Elder” in a non-denominational/pentecostal type mega-church made of many former Catholics , some of whom have really bad feelings about the RCC due to various bad experiences, deadness of faith, etc
*Still attending morning mass… and contending for some of the less-devisive RCC beliefs among my non-denom brethren at my mega-church (like honoring Mary, power of the eucharist–which is sometimes declared the actual body of Christ, and sometimes declared a representation of Christ…, not judging Catholics who they don’t know, and much more, whenever the Spirit gives an opportunity)

The reasons I haven’t “returned” as a “faithful” Catholic are many… I’m trying to share some of them (based on things I’ve learned in my non-Catholic churches) in the "non-Catholic religions forum, but again, seem to be met with members who always revert to the Churches written doctrines/teaching/theology, but never address the big question of why don’t we see more of what the RCC supposedly believes actually be put into practice by more of its leaders and followers…

PEACE, JOY & LOVE IN CHRIST!
Pray for unity (John 17:21)! We want the world to know HIM!!!

Interestnig testimony.
I applaud your honesty in how you are approaching and conducting your journey.
My suspicion is that God will lead you back fully into the Catholic Church when you (And He) are ready.
We need more young and “on fire” catholics. Just not ones who claim to be “Catholic” while flaunting magisterial teachings. Much better to do as you have (and as I did) and go do the explorations and research etc. then, when it seems right, come back.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

You won’t get pounced. Experiential, progressive sanctification is synergistic. That is certainly within the realm of confessional Lutheranism. There is an “already” aspect to sanctification which is monergistic… but the “not yet” definitely involves your reborn will making choices (we’re not Calvinists!)

And that is the way I have always understood it.
Thanks,
Jon

 

[schaick]

You see, Lutheranism is an off-shoot of Catholicism…your religion is based in the most part on Catholicism, with some differences and inventions, that were created to reconcile God’s beliefs with a “man’s” beliefs…basically, Luther didn’t agree with God, so he formed his own belief system to justify those beliefs and expected God to conform instead of accepting God and The Church’s beliefs, despite not being able to understand them.

Please tell us what Luther invented.

In what way didn’t Luther agree with GOD?

What faith system did Luther form?

 

[schaick]

How does one follow a church that was born out of a disobedient Catholic priest? He was a member of the One, True, Church…then became a heretic…and a new, entirely separate, false religion was founded based on him…how can one honestly and intellectually buy into this fake religion and his distortions on God? I am not trying to be inflammatory, I honestly want to know…because logically and intellectually, it doesn’t add up or make sense. How do you explain away his ordination and Catholic priesthood? Was he once a heretic in your opinion and then saw the light? How exactly does that work?

I simply can’t be part of a “church” that would deny people what GOD has already given to us through the Apostles.

Luther might have been disobedient to the organization of the Catholic Church but not disobedient to GOD.

Are these spoken from “Peters Chair” and so considered infallible decisions by the Popes?

GOD’s Word says salvation is through Jesus.

To me the followng all point to a false religion [meaning one that is not biblical]:

The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary. Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation! Pope Pius IX

For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands. Pope Pius X

He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, and you alone O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. Pope Pius XI

Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; no one O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee! Every one of the multitudes, therefore, whom the evil of calamitous circumstances has stolen away from Catholic unity, must be born again to Christ by that same Mother whom God has endowed with a never-failing fertility to bring forth a holy people. Pope Leo XIII

Mary, not one of thy devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved! Pope Benedict XV

Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. Pope Boniface VIII

We believe with our hearts and confess with our lips but one Church, not that of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, outside of which we believe that no one is saved. Pope Innocent III

He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life. He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may seem otherwise, will never enjoy eternal life, and the wrath of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ�. All those who are separated from the holy universal Church will not be saved. Pope Gregory XVI

It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood. It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! You must indeed see to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation. Protestantism is the Great Revolt against God. Pope Pius IX

Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Ghost. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ… and if separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members, nor is he fed by His Spirit. Pope Paul VI

No one, even if he pours out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remains within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. Pope Eugene IV

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII

**Into this fold of Jesus Christ no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff, **and only if they be united to him can men be saved. Pope John XXIII

Those who are obstinate toward the **authority of the Church and the Roman Pontiff… cannot obtain eternal salvation. **Pope Pius IX

 

[AmateurPianist]

Thanks for being honest. :tiphat:

Hmmmmmmmmmm…I was being…sarcastic…

 

[Madaglan]

I may get pounced on for this, but I view the monergism of Lutheranism as related to justification only. Sanctification, OTOH, is synergistic, at least in my view.

Lutherans accept that the mass is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Lutherans do not “reject” other sacraments. We simply have a different definition of what a sacrament is, which includes, along with the institution of Christ and the promise of grace, a physical element.

Jon

In my discussions with Lutherans and reading of Lutheran material, monergism definitely comes up in regards to justification. As to sanctification, yes synergistic sounds right, if sanctification is understood as leading a godly life following justification. I’ll let other Lutherans chime in on this one though. It seems there are several understandings of sanctification.

A significant difference between Catholics and Lutherans, from my vantage, is how justification is understood. For Lutherans, justification is an unrepeatable one-time event. In justifying a person by faith alone, God declares the person righteous, and that person thereby receives the gift of salvation. Sanctification, an ongoing process, follows, but itself does not save as does justification.

In Catholicism, justification is a process that begins with baptism but also continues throughout the Christian’s life. Justification and sanctification, in the Catholic (and Orthodox view) go hand in hand. Cooperation with God’s will accompanies the process of justification/sanctification, and is integral to salvation.

Lutherans do accept the mass as you describe it, yet they do not believe that the Mass is the Sacrifice of Christ suffered on Calvary, the very same, whereby the graces of Christ’s sacrifice are applied to those who worthily partake of the Eucharist. (although Lutherans do believe that the Eucharist is received for the forgiveness of sins)

Lutherans do have a sense of anamnesis, in the sense of a recollection of Christ’s Last Supper, although the sense whereby the event of Christ’s Sacrifice is made truly present at each celebration is not as strong in Lutheranism as in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy).

Yes, Lutherans re-defined the meaning of sacrament, and thereby excluded several visible signs once understood as sacraments (subsequently regarded as non-sacraments–e.g. marriage, henceforth considered a contract).

I hope you don’t see this as me pouncing.

 

[michaeldaniels]

1. The Catholic Church is GOD’s Church…it is CHRIST’s Church…therefore if one is disobedient to it, they are disobedient to God.
2. The Catholic Church is biblical, because it is the very Church that is being described from the time Peter was made first Pope, through Acts, etc…and even spoken about several times in the writings of the Church Fathers
3. You mistake veneration with worship…Mary is the Mother of God…Christians have recognized since the first century that the woman and her seed of Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons, such as Abel or Seth. They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. The first half of the verse (speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman) has been applied to Mary, and so the second half (speaking of the crushed head and heel striking) also has been applied to Mary. Though the variant that uses “she” and “her” probably came from a copyist’s error, the idea it expresses is true. There is a sense in which Mary crushed the serpent’s head and in which she was struck at by the serpent. She didn’t do these things directly, but indirectly, through her Son. It was Jesus who directly crushed the serpent’s head from the cross and Jesus whom the serpent directly struck on the cross. Yet Mary cooperated in these events. She, not anyone else, was the person who agreed to become the human channel through which Christ would enter the world in order to crush the serpent’s head (Luke 1:38). She herself was wounded when the serpent struck Jesus. Simeon had prophesied to her that “a sword will pierce through your own soul also,” a prophecy fulfilled when Mary saw her Son hanging from the cross (John 19:25–27). Thus Jesus directly crushed the serpent and was directly struck by the serpent, while Mary indirectly crushed it and was indirectly struck by it, due to her cooperation in becoming the mother of Christ. Therefore, though the she/her and he/his readings of Genesis 3:15 are different, both are true, and Catholics have long recognized this. A footnote provided a couple of hundred years ago by Bishop Challoner, in his revision of the Douay-Rheims version, state, “The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.” (For more information, see A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, Bernard Orchard, O.S.B., ed. [New York: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1953], p. 186.)
4. And you are absolutely right…Outside The Church, there is no salvation…how foolish are you though who thinks there is.

You are in my prayers.

I simply can’t be part of a “church” that would deny people what GOD has already given to us through the Apostles.

Luther might have been disobedient to the organization of the Catholic Church but not disobedient to GOD.

Are these spoken from “Peters Chair” and so considered infallible decisions by the Popes?

GOD’s Word says salvation is through Jesus.

To me the followng all point to a false religion [meaning one that is not biblical]:

The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary. Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation! Pope Pius IX

For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands. Pope Pius X

He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, and you alone O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. Pope Pius XI

Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; no one O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee! Every one of the multitudes, therefore, whom the evil of calamitous circumstances has stolen away from Catholic unity, must be born again to Christ by that same Mother whom God has endowed with a never-failing fertility to bring forth a holy people. Pope Leo XIII

Mary, not one of thy devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved! Pope Benedict XV

Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. Pope Boniface VIII

We believe with our hearts and confess with our lips but one Church, not that of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, outside of which we believe that no one is saved. Pope Innocent III

He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life. He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may seem otherwise, will never enjoy eternal life, and the wrath of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ�. All those who are separated from the holy universal Church will not be saved. Pope Gregory XVI

It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood. It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! You must indeed see to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation. Protestantism is the Great Revolt against God. Pope Pius IX

Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Ghost. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ… and if separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members, nor is he fed by His Spirit. Pope Paul VI

No one, even if he pours out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remains within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. Pope Eugene IV

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII

**Into this fold of Jesus Christ no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff, **and only if they be united to him can men be saved. Pope John XXIII

Those who are obstinate toward the **authority of the Church and the Roman Pontiff… cannot obtain eternal salvation. **Pope Pius IX

 

[grace_singh]

there are many things i do love and admire about the CC. your respect for tradition, many wonderful saints and scholars, the Catechism (don’t agree with all points, but there is a lot of value and well-explained truth there), and many other things.

some things i can not accept about the CC include what i feel is an excessive and inappropriate respect due to Mary, certain Christological points with which i am more aligned to Orthodoxy than the CC, many of the violent and repressive fruits of approved Catholic leaders over the centuries (which were in their own time approved and promoted by Church leadership), and in general my belief that one need not be grafted to a hierarchical body of men following a tradition of apostolic succession to be grafted onto the historical and eternal Son of God, or to be in Him.

 

[mariahloves]

Well since you asked…here are the main reasons that I wouldn’t entertain the idea of becoming a Catholic (in no particular order):

1. Mary. The NT and the earliest church fathers give no hint that Mary continues to play any significant role in the salvation of men. IMHO this silence makes it virtually impossible/extremely unlikely that the early church could have viewed her as possessing the importance that the CC attributes to her.

May I ask, what is more important than giving birth to God? (No, I’m not insinuating that Mary existed before Jesus Christ our God or created Him, but she did in fact give birth to Him.)

 

[mskejj]

Quote:
Originally Posted by may_they_be_one
My interesting process of leaving/questioning the RCC:

*I was raised as a good practicing Catholic (mass every Sunday, holy days, etc),
*I behaved like a heathen (drinking, etc) as a teen and young adult (while still going to mass each Sunday)
*I started listening to Evangelical Christian radio in college (still going to mass)
*I had a major conversion through hearing the word preached on the radio, said an evangelical version of “a sinner’s prayer” in my heart as led on the radio
*I began reading my bible on my own outside of mass (now attending mass very JOYFULLY for first time ever), and had a true zeal to proclaim the Gospel of Salvation to basically anyone I met (never would have even talked about loving Jesus even with other Catholics before this)
*I stopped my heathen living, explored becoming a Franciscan brother or priest
*Instead, met & married a strong Catholic who experienced way too much heathen behavior at a Roman Catholic university (still attending mass and praying joyfully together)
*We tried to form stronger relationships with other young adult Catholics and deepen our obedience to Christ’s commands, and found many intellectual Catholics wanting to argue dogmatic/doctrinal/philosophical ideas with no visual outward commitment to become more perfect in holiness and proclaim the name of Jesus outside the four walls of a church building… (still attending mass)
*Then, out of curiosity visited a Vineyard (a type of evangelical/non-denominational) church a block from the Catholic church we were attending which had many young adults attending like ourselves (and the pastor was our neighbor)
*Started sharing our zeal for Christ with the other members, began actually raising our hands during song worship! (still attended mass, too, which the pastor encouraged us to do )
*Eventually stopped attending Sunday mass due to various factors, but still attend morning weekday mass as often as possible
*Realized my calling is to actually work for the unification and reconciliation of the ENTIRE body of Christ, which I’ve pursued the past 7 years, now using this forum!!!
*I am interestingly, an “Elder” in a non-denominational/pentecostal type mega-church made of many former Catholics , some of whom have really bad feelings about the RCC due to various bad experiences, deadness of faith, etc
*Still attending morning mass… and contending for some of the less-devisive RCC beliefs among my non-denom brethren at my mega-church (like honoring Mary, power of the eucharist–which is sometimes declared the actual body of Christ, and sometimes declared a representation of Christ…, not judging Catholics who they don’t know, and much more, whenever the Spirit gives an opportunity)

The reasons I haven’t “returned” as a “faithful” Catholic are many… I’m trying to share some of them (based on things I’ve learned in my non-Catholic churches) in the "non-Catholic religions forum, but again, seem to be met with members who always revert to the Churches written doctrines/teaching/theology, but never address the big question of why don’t we see more of what the RCC supposedly believes actually be put into practice by more of its leaders and followers…

PEACE, JOY & LOVE IN CHRIST!
Pray for unity (John 17:21)! We want the world to know HIM!!!

******When I read your post I thought immediately of the author Jeff Cavins who wrote "My Life on the Rock…A Rebel Returns to the Catholic Faith. He came to a church near us and did a seminar on Revelations and the night before he told us his conversion story. I think you could really relate to him. He told us at one point he proclaimed to a visiting bishop that he was “done” with the Catholic Church for many of the same reasons you say. Later the next day the bishop saw him at the “morning mass” he was attending still at a convent nearby (he also spent Sunday mass at a Bible Church) and asked him for his story. He told him 3 things when he was done. 1. That his experience was definitely from God. 2. That he reminded of Cardinal Newman and 3. That one day he would return to the church and teach his people. 17 years later…he did just that and now is the author of the Great Adventure Bible Timeline series that is spreading through our churches today. If you haven’t read his story, you should