I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[TriuneUnity]

A significant difference between Catholics and Lutherans, from my vantage, is how justification is understood. For Lutherans, justification is an unrepeatable one-time event. In justifying a person by faith alone, God declares the person righteous, and that person thereby receives the gift of salvation. Sanctification, an ongoing process, follows, but itself does not save as does justification.

Only one correction here, and it’s an important one. We do not believe that justification is an unrepeatable one-time event. That would be along Calvinistic/Reformed lines. Justification can be lost through a loss of faith (or a mortal sin leading to a loss of faith). In such an instance, the person is no longer justified and must be justified through faith again. This necessarily means we also reject once-saved-always-saved. The rest you’re right on.

I hope you don’t see this as me pouncing.

You panther you

 

[Greg27]

I personally have a number of problems with Catholic moral teachings, rather than the theological doctrines, which in my view are largely acceptable. These include:

1. The church is infallible, including on moral matters (but in my view this is not a good position to take since human beings are weak and fallible, too much so to be perfect or have perfect knowledge on anything)
2. Certain bans and teachings on sexual and bioethical issues, including the ban on contraception or access to IVF on pain of grave sin.
3. The refusal to consider women for ordained ministerial roles (in my view having a vagina should be no more a barrier to ministry than being black or poor).
4. Understanding of authority - the church seems to have adopted a very ‘top-down’ approach to authority, basically adopting a paternalistic approach to followers and leaving no room for believers to use their reason and conscience to make decisions on moral matters.
5. Reactionary conservatism and fundamentalism - the church under John Paul II and Benedict (while he was Ratzinger) seemed to revert back to the Pre-Vatican II style of church and teachings, and refused to positively adopt and advance the changes that occured in Vatican II, and also in various ways endorsed and supported the fundamentalist and conservative branches of the church. This is most starkly apparent in the ‘crackdown’ on theologians like Curran and Hans Kung (to name a couple) as well as the acidic and often irrational and violent threats I see at the hands of conservative Catholics to excommunicate other Catholics who don’t tow the line in certain issues.

I personally think the CC has it mostly right when it comes to theology, but I think it isn’t going the right way in terms of its internal politics and its hardline stance on difficult moral questions, which should be resolved by reason informed by tradition, be open to be changed and re-evaluated in light of new understanding and evidence, and the church should move away from the ‘infallible’ and ‘perfect society’ conception of itself which in my view creates a lot of problems internally (particularly with dissent or disagreement) and externally in terms of ecunemical relations.

 

[grace_singh]

1. The refusal to consider women for ordained ministerial roles (in my view having a vagina should be no more a barrier to ministry than being black or poor).

that is an understandable opinion, but the Bible would disagree with you on that point. women can and should serve within the church, just not as heads of churches, over men.

i have found that a very good way to get a church in general less open to Biblical literalism, less willing to accept that Christ is the Only Way and that there can not be others, more open to inter-religious dialogue and universalism, more tolerant of homosexuality as a valid and God-given way of life, and less willing to share the Gospel is to make it a practice to ordain women.

it is simply not Scriptural. it is a noble and seemingly logical point, but men and women do have different roles within the Church. or should, rather. exactly because of their being men and women, as opposed to two men of different skin color or income.

that is one thing i really do admire about the CC, their refusal to ordain women, in light of 2,000 years of tradition, and the authority of Scriptural mandates.

 

[LindaSK]

that is an understandable opinion, but the Bible would disagree with you on that point. women can and should serve within the church, just not as heads of churches, over men.

i have found that a very good way to get a church in general less open to Biblical literalism, less willing to accept that Christ is the Only Way and that there can not be others, more open to inter-religious dialogue and universalism, more tolerant of homosexuality as a valid and God-given way of life, and less willing to share the Gospel is to make it a practice to ordain women.

it is simply not Scriptural. it is a noble and seemingly logical point, but men and women do have different roles within the Church. or should, rather. exactly because of their being men and women, as opposed to two men of different skin color or income.

that is one thing i really do admire about the CC, their refusal to ordain women, in light of 2,000 years of tradition, and the authority of Scriptural mandates.

" one thing i really do admire about the CC, their refusal to ordain women, in light of 2,000 years of tradition, and the authority of Scriptural mandates*" I absolutely agree. This certainly was a positive for me when I looked at the Catholic Church.

 

[Cristian_B]

Because I disagree with various of the Catholic teachings.

 

[Janet1983]

I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?
This is a serious question, so please post your reason here… Please, don’t be afraid to voice your opinion and to defend your own particular denomination.
I am not the only Catholic here at CAF, or elsewhere, who wonders and wants to know the answer to this question.
If any Catholics, or any converts to Catholicism here, have any insight to the answer, or possible answer(s) to this question, then please post a response here.
Your thoughts?

I do not count myself among the members of the Catholic Church anymore (formal defection) because I grew to disbelieve several of the Church’s teachings.
I especially doubt Mary’s perpetual virginity, her immaculate conception and her assumption. I disagree with the definition of a “saint” and the One Church".
I disagree with the supremacy of the bishop of Rome as well as his infallibility when he speaks ex cathedra. I do not believe that it is necessary to confess one’s sins to a priest and I do not believe in such a thing as purgatory.
I do believe that I can be a Christian, serving the Lord and loving Him with all my heart outside of the Catholic Church as well. I do not believe that my convictions hinder me from being His alone.
I believe that I will go to heaven when I die, not because of what I did, but because of what He did for me when He laid down His life and died on the cross and when He rose from the dead on the third day.

 

[schaick]

michaeldaniels:
No I understand that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the difference between veneration and worship, I have been explaining it to Muslims for years.

And I understand how Catholics interprete Genesis and yes it was Jesus who directly crushed the serpent’s head from the cross and Jesus whom the serpent directly struck on the cross.

Yes Mary is the best example of an obedient servant:
38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

The child not Mary causes the rise and fall. And yes Mary as any mother when their child is in danger or hurt and dying a sword pierces their soul:
34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

SO these Popes really said these statements? They are saying that our salvation is dependant on Mary. They really are teaching a FALSE GOSPEL.

The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know thatthrough her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary. Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation! Pope Pius IX

He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, andyou alone O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. Pope Pius XI

Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; **]no one O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee! **Every one of the multitudes, therefore, whom the evil of calamitous circumstances has stolen away from Catholic unity, must be born again to Christ by that same Mother whom God has endowed with a never-failing fertility to bring forth a holy people. Pope Leo XIII

We believe with our hearts and confess with our lips but one Church, not that of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, outside of which we believe that no one is saved. Pope Innocent III

He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life. He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may seem otherwise, will never enjoy eternal life, and the wrath of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ. All those who are separated from the holy universal Church will not be saved. Pope Gregory XVI

It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood. **It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! **You must indeed see to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation. Protestantism is the Great Revolt against God. Pope Pius IX

Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Ghost. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ… and if separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members, nor is he fed by His Spirit. Pope Paul VI

No one, even if he pours out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remains within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. Pope Eugene IV

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII

Into this fold of Jesus Christ no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff, and only if they be united to him can men be saved. Pope John XXIII

Those who are obstinate toward the authority of the Church and the Roman Pontiff… cannot obtain eternal salvation. Pope Pius IX

And all this time I thought Salvation was through Jesus Christ!!

Acts 4:12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 25For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 4:4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—

John 14: 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 10:9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 11:25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies

John 8: 12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 6:35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world

John 3:15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

“John 3:36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

John 8:24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 5: 24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

1 John 5:11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 4:14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

 

[Dokimas]

http://fratres.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pope-benedict-xvi-blessing-of-the-host.jpg
I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?
This is a serious question, so please post your reason here… Please, don’t be afraid to voice your opinion and to defend your own particular denomination.
I am not the only Catholic here at CAF, or elsewhere, who wonders and wants to know the answer to this question.
If any Catholics, or any converts to Catholicism here, have any insight to the answer, or possible answer(s) to this question, then please post a response here.
Your thoughts?

That’s an easy question to answer: if we became a catholic Chrstian then we would be a non-catholic Christian.

 

[Madaglan]

Only one correction here, and it’s an important one. We do not believe that justification is an unrepeatable one-time event. That would be along Calvinistic/Reformed lines. Justification can be lost through a loss of faith (or a mortal sin leading to a loss of faith). In such an instance, the person is no longer justified and must be justified through faith again. This necessarily means we also reject once-saved-always-saved. The rest you’re right on.

You panther you

Correction taken. It does appear that justification as an unrepeatable one-time event stems from Calvinist thought, not Lutheran.

I still am trying to understand the Lutheran teaching regarding someone who has a loss of faith and needs to be justified by faith again. Can such a person *choose *to repent and return to God? Or, does a loss of faith return the Christian to the state of the bondage of the will? Is it the case, in Lutheranism, that a justified Christian can choose in such a way to have a loss of faith, but once faith is lost, has no freedom to return to faith?

 

[LindaSK]

Correction taken. It does appear that justification as an unrepeatable one-time event stems from Calvinist thought, not Lutheran.

I still am trying to understand the Lutheran teaching regarding someone who has a loss of faith and needs to be justified by faith again. Can such a person *choose *to repent and return to God? Or, does a loss of faith return the Christian to the state of the bondage of the will? Is it the case, in Lutheranism, that a justified Christian can choose in such a way to have a loss of faith, but once faith is lost, has no freedom to return to faith?

My understanding, when I was a member of a Lutheran Church, was that someone could certainly choose to repent and return. It is an act of the will. As I recall, the concept of forgiveness of sins is similar to the Catholic Church, though the process is different. Both have a penitential rite early in the service/Mass. The Lutheran Church doesn’t have the Sacrament of Confession as it is in the Catholic Church.

 

[Volodymyr]

I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?

One of most reasons is the silly but sincere arrogance that would ask such a question. Catolic church has many features good, but such silliness of its members is not. Although sincere, such a question says much more about such person asking, than about any who might give an answer.

I am orthodox christian, belonging to church founded by Jesus Christ and am happy to know and help from Catolic persons. But I would not ever want to be one.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Correction taken. It does appear that justification as an unrepeatable one-time event stems from Calvinist thought, not Lutheran.

I still am trying to understand the Lutheran teaching regarding someone who has a loss of faith and needs to be justified by faith again. Can such a person *choose *to repent and return to God? Or, does a loss of faith return the Christian to the state of the bondage of the will? Is it the case, in Lutheranism, that a justified Christian can choose in such a way to have a loss of faith, but once faith is lost, has no freedom to return to faith?

If a person resists the Holy Spirit to the degree that he apostasizes from the faith, yes, that person returns to a state of spiritual death. The only reason we have spiritual life is because of the indwelling presence of the Spirit. When the Spirit is resisted, He no longer dwells within the believer, who therefore, dies spiritually. Such a person has returned to the bondage of the world, the flesh, and the devil. Pertinent passages here are Luke 8:13; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Heb. 3:12, 6:4-6. Of course, on a pastoral level, we shouldn’t confuse falling into temptation and struggles with faith as evidence that a person is no longer a Christian. Since we can only see a persons actions, we have to base those decisions on whether they still profess to have faith, but are in a difficult situation.

A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation. Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God’s Word in a person’s heart. Therefore, a return to faith would be just as monergistic as a person’s first conversion (or baptism, as the case may be).

 

[JRKH]

I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?

One of most reasons is the silly but sincere arrogance that would ask such a question. Catolic church has many features good, but such silliness of its members is not. Although sincere, such a question says much more about such person asking, than about any who might give an answer.

I am orthodox christian, belonging to church founded by Jesus Christ and am happy to know and help from Catolic persons. But I would not ever want to be one.

Yes - unfortunately you are right. The Church contains many sinners and Pride (arrogance) is certainly high up on that list of sins. I too have made the mistake of neglecting our Eastern Brother Catholics in my questions and my answers. Certainly those who belong to the “Orthodox” churches are Catholic and Apostolic.
I suspect that the OP was thinking, like myself, primarily of those who belong to the “post reformation Christian churches” that split from the Latin Rite Church.
Thanks for the reminder
May East and West soon resolve the differences that divide us. I pray for reunification.

Peace
James

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

My interesting process of leaving/questioning the RCC:

*I was raised as a good practicing Catholic (mass every Sunday, holy days, etc),
*I behaved like a heathen (drinking, etc) as a teen and young adult (while still going to mass each Sunday)
*I started listening to Evangelical Christian radio in college (still going to mass)
*I had a major conversion through hearing the word preached on the radio, said an evangelical version of “a sinner’s prayer” in my heart as led on the radio
*I began reading my bible on my own outside of mass (now attending mass very JOYFULLY for first time ever), and had a true zeal to proclaim the Gospel of Salvation to basically anyone I met (never would have even talked about loving Jesus even with other Catholics before this)
*I stopped my heathen living, explored becoming a Franciscan brother or priest
*Instead, met & married a strong Catholic who experienced way too much heathen behavior at a Roman Catholic university (still attending mass and praying joyfully together)
*We tried to form stronger relationships with other young adult Catholics and deepen our obedience to Christ’s commands, and found many intellectual Catholics wanting to argue dogmatic/doctrinal/philosophical ideas with no visual outward commitment to become more perfect in holiness and proclaim the name of Jesus outside the four walls of a church building… (still attending mass)
*Then, out of curiosity visited a Vineyard (a type of evangelical/non-denominational) church a block from the Catholic church we were attending which had many young adults attending like ourselves (and the pastor was our neighbor)
*Started sharing our zeal for Christ with the other members, began actually raising our hands during song worship! (still attended mass, too, which the pastor encouraged us to do )
*Eventually stopped attending Sunday mass due to various factors, but still attend morning weekday mass as often as possible
*Realized my calling is to actually work for the unification and reconciliation of the ENTIRE body of Christ, which I’ve pursued the past 7 years, now using this forum!!!
*I am interestingly, an “Elder” in a non-denominational/pentecostal type mega-church made of many former Catholics , some of whom have really bad feelings about the RCC due to various bad experiences, deadness of faith, etc
*Still attending morning mass… and contending for some of the less-devisive RCC beliefs among my non-denom brethren at my mega-church (like honoring Mary, power of the eucharist–which is sometimes declared the actual body of Christ, and sometimes declared a representation of Christ…, not judging Catholics who they don’t know, and much more, whenever the Spirit gives an opportunity)

The reasons I haven’t “returned” as a “faithful” Catholic are many… I’m trying to share some of them (based on things I’ve learned in my non-Catholic churches) in the "non-Catholic religions forum, but again, seem to be met with members who always revert to the Churches written doctrines/teaching/theology, but never address the big question of why don’t we see more of what the RCC supposedly believes actually be put into practice by more of its leaders and followers…

PEACE, JOY & LOVE IN CHRIST!
Pray for unity (John 17:21)! We want the world to know HIM!!!

You seam to be coming to some of the same conclusions I have only im coming from the other side. I visited a Catholic mass and saw much to admire but I also found much was missing. I would love to meet a real Catholic who’s faith impacts his or her life, to see some devout Catholics in loving fellowship with other Catholics. I assume it happens but have never seen it.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

there are many things i do love and admire about the CC. your respect for tradition, many wonderful saints and scholars, the Catechism (don’t agree with all points, but there is a lot of value and well-explained truth there), and many other things.

some things i can not accept about the CC include what i feel is an excessive and inappropriate respect due to Mary, certain Christological points with which i am more aligned to Orthodoxy than the CC, many of the violent and repressive fruits of approved Catholic leaders over the centuries (which were in their own time approved and promoted by Church leadership), and in general my belief that one need not be grafted to a hierarchical body of men following a tradition of apostolic succession to be grafted onto the historical and eternal Son of God, or to be in Him.

BINGO! I agree with each and every piont.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I may get pounced on for this, but I view the monergism of Lutheranism as related to justification only. Sanctification, OTOH, is synergistic, at least in my view.

Lutherans accept that the mass is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Lutherans do not “reject” other sacraments. We simply have a different definition of what a sacrament is, which includes, along with the institution of Christ and the promise of grace, a physical element.

Jon

I agree on each point.

.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

To answer the question, I’m an Anglican, therefore I consider myself as Catholic as any Roman Catholic.

And if I decide to move to the Roman branch of Catholicism, kindly refrain from welcoming me “home”. I’m home now.

 

[Lethe]

Maybe they don’t like the Pope… The current one really scares me. And he makes comments that can be summed up as ‘I tolerate other views, but only if they are the same as mine.’

 

[JonNC]

If a person resists the Holy Spirit to the degree that he apostasizes from the faith, yes, that person returns to a state of spiritual death. The only reason we have spiritual life is because of the indwelling presence of the Spirit. When the Spirit is resisted, He no longer dwells within the believer, who therefore, dies spiritually. Such a person has returned to the bondage of the world, the flesh, and the devil. Pertinent passages here are Luke 8:13; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Heb. 3:12, 6:4-6. Of course, on a pastoral level, we shouldn’t confuse falling into temptation and struggles with faith as evidence that a person is no longer a Christian. Since we can only see a persons actions, we have to base those decisions on whether they still profess to have faith, but are in a difficult situation.

A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation. Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God’s Word in a person’s heart. Therefore, a return to faith would be just as monergistic as a person’s first conversion (or baptism, as the case may be).

Madaglan,
TU has done a much better job of explaining than I could have. Thanks, TU.
Also, this issue is addressed in the Augsburg Confession, Article, 12.

bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article12

Jon

 

[lil_flower_luv]

:twocents:

I have read a few non-Catholic responses to this thread and a lot of them mentioned Mother Mary as a reason why they wouldn’t join the CC. I can only say that if it weren’t for her intercession…well, nevermind.
Catholics, have we really given them such a bad impression of our Mother??

That’s what I’d like to know.
LFL