I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Fisher]

Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is a member of the one Holy Catholic Church, purchased by the precious blood of the Son of God.

“I am a Catholic priest.” I am a priest in the Holy Catholic Church. I mean that I am a member of that holy and royal priesthood composed of all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and together forming the Holy Catholic Church.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Dokimas]

No need. I am fully aware that Christ was without sin. The point is that the verse says ALL have sinned. The man Jesus did not. Therefore “ALL” have not sinned.

The verse makes no such qualification.

I suppose I miread what you intended.
Yet Jesus was born - Just as we were. Jesus was 100% Human. Jesus did not sin.

I don’t expect that my line of reasoning will convince you any more than I expect it will convince Jon. The fact remains that the term “All” does not necessariy mean “ALL” and that seems to be a part of my post that you missed. The part that read
The passage cited says “All” have sinned yet we see at least one exception to that. I could easily demonstrate others. An infant cannot sin. Nor can someone who is mentally impaired. Yet we are to accept that when Paul says “All have sinned” that that means “all” without exception?
Since neither an infant nor a mentally impaired person can sin, “ALL” cannot mean “ALL without exception.”

Peace
James

Did you pre-exist before you were in your Mom’s womb? Jesus pre-existed so His birth was NOT like ours.​

All means all; that all is within a given catagory. It takes the Holy Spirit and wisdom to understand the catagory. Jesus is in one catagory of those born to women and All the rest of us are in another catagory. Wouldn’t you agree to that line of reasoning?​

Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God. How many percent God are you, me or Mary the mother of Jesus?

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t expect that my line of reasoning will convince you any more than I expect it will convince Jon. The fact remains that the term “All” does not necessariy mean “ALL” and that seems to be a part of my post that you missed. The part that read
The passage cited says “All” have sinned yet we see at least one exception to that. I could easily demonstrate others. An infant cannot sin. Nor can someone who is mentally impaired. Yet we are to accept that when Paul says “All have sinned” that that means “all” without exception?
Since neither an infant nor a mentally impaired person can sin, “ALL” cannot mean “ALL without exception.”

Peace
James

Are you absolutely a baby and mentally retarted can’t sin? Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.​

BTW, is all this talk for the sake of Mary and the CC teaching she never sinned? Why do you need her to be sinless? Why do you think God needed her to be sinless?

 

[LittleSoldier]

I understand why Mary and the Saints can be such a tripping stone who people who aren’t Catholic, and many people who perhaps ARE! Many Catholics do give off an odd impression of what they’re doing, even if it’s a misunderstanding.

I’ve never understood this on my own level though. The way I see Mary is my mother. I don’t have a mother, she was never around, so instead, I speak to my Mother in Heaven. And the Saints? I feel they’re my friends. I guess my prayers to them are more the “talk to” kind, much differnt than how I speak to God and Jesus. A lot of times I get home, plop on my bed, stare at my ceiling and go, Mom, you won’t BELIEVE the day I had!

I didn’t know that the “Mary” thing was such a big problem, but now I’m beginning to understand. I appreciate all the responses. I’m learning a lot here. Thank y’all!

God bless!

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Are you absolutely a baby and mentally retarted can’t sin? Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.​

BTW, is all this talk for the sake of Mary and the CC teaching she never sinned? Why do you need her to be sinless? Why do you think God needed her to be sinless?

A baby can sin? Are you serious? How in the world can a baby sin? By crying so Mom and Dad wake up? By needing to have his diaper changed?

You mention “selfish tendencies.” Please list some of these. I am interested in knowing how a baby sins. To sin, one must know the difference between right and wrong. Babies do not. Absolutely not. At the beginning they don’t even know they are separate from their mothers.

Take an adult with an IQ of 10. I’ve worked with these people. I’ve never seen one of them do anything that could count as a sin. Can you give an example of what an adult with an IQ of 10 can do that is a sin?

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[Cristian_B]

A baby can sin? Are you serious? How in the world can a baby sin? By crying so Mom and Dad wake up? By needing to have his diaper changed?

According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, the baby is a sinner since he has original sin. Or does not your church teach that?

 

[Janet1983]

I didn’t know that the “Mary” thing was such a big problem, but now I’m beginning to understand. I appreciate all the responses. I’m learning a lot here. Thank y’all!

God bless!

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

It is indeed a major issue that most who do not just accept it struggle with (including those who try to accept it as a teaching of the Church).

 

[LittleSoldier]

According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, the baby is a sinner since he has original sin. Or does not your church teach that?

The Catholic Church teaches that we are born with an inherited sin, which is original sin. But original sin has nothing to do with culpability. A baby cannot be culpable and is innocent of any personal sin. A baby cannot sin, which is what I stated in the post you replied to. And if the baby has been baptised, original sin is erased. So baptised babies don’t meet any criteria for sinning or being sinners.

“Original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed - a state and not an act”.

[CCC 404]

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe tonight.

 

[Dokimas]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are born with an inherited sin, which is original sin. But original sin has nothing to do with culpability. A baby cannot be culpable and is innocent of any personal sin. A baby cannot sin, which is what I stated in the post you replied to. And if the baby has been baptised, original sin is erased. So baptised babies don’t meet any criteria for sinning or being sinners.

“Original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed - a state and not an act”.

[CCC 404]

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe tonight.

Then was does baptism do for infants. I know of two situations were parents of two babies did not believe in baptism for their children but family members were upset that the babies weren’t baptized when illness was involved. So if there’s not sin or culpability, then why baptize a dying infant?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Then was does baptism do for infants. I know of two situations were parents of two babies did not believe in baptism for their children but family members were upset that the babies weren’t baptized when illness was involved. So if there’s not sin or culpability, then why baptize a dying infant?

Please, I’m not the right person to respond to this question. I have no idea of the situation those babies and their parents and relatives were in or even if they were Catholic. I think you need to ask a theologian about this. Babies are born with original sin, but this is inherited and they have no culpability. Neither does an adult with an IQ of 10. Baptism erases original sin.

My point is that babies cannot sin. How can they possibly sin? They can’t tell right from wrong. If you can’t tell right from wrong, you can’t sin.

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? I don’t think you were, because you stated “Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.” [bolding mine]

This implies that you think babies know the difference between right and wrong and commit sinful acts purposely, as when they “manipulate” their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies. Babies are not capable of consciously manipulating their parents. They have innate patterns of behavior and they definitely learn, but they don’t sin. They are only “selfish” in that they are attempting to develop autonomy and younger babies don’t even do this. Young babies don’t even know they’re babies and human beings separate from their parents.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe tonight.

 

[Dokimas]

Please, I’m not the right person to respond to this question. I have no idea of the situation those babies and their parents and relatives were in or even if they were Catholic. I think you need to ask a theologian about this. Babies are born with original sin, but this is inherited and they have no culpability. Neither does an adult with an IQ of 10. Baptism erases original sin.

My point is that babies cannot sin. How can they possibly sin? They can’t tell right from wrong. If you can’t tell right from wrong, you can’t sin.

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? I don’t think you were, because you stated “Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.” [bolding mine]

This implies that you think babies know the difference between right and wrong and commit sinful acts purposely, as when they “manipulate” their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies. Babies are not capable of consciously manipulating their parents. They have innate patterns of behavior and they definitely learn, but they don’t sin. They are only “selfish” in that they are attempting to develop autonomy and younger babies don’t even do this. Young babies don’t even know they’re babies and human beings separate from their parents.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe tonight.

The parents of one child were not catholics; of the other one catholic and one not. Neither were going to baptize the children. The family members were catholic and took matters into their own hands.​

So why is infant baptism so important? Do you have children? If so, did you have them baptized? If so, why? What did it do for your children (child) that the love and grace and mercy of Jesus couldn’t do?

 

[LittleSoldier]

The parents of one child were not catholics; of the other one catholic and one not. Neither were going to baptize the children. The family members were catholic and took matters into their own hands.​

So why is infant baptism so important? Do you have children? If so, did you have them baptized? If so, why? What did it do for your children (child) that the love and grace and mercy of Jesus couldn’t do?

I think you’re trying to veer this thread off-topic. I’m not going to respond to your questions until you answer mine. How can babies sin?

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? I don’t think you were, because you stated “Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.”

If you want to know about infant baptism, please feel free to start a new thread.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[Dokimas]

I think you’re trying to veer this thread off-topic. I’m not going to respond to your questions until you answer mine. How can babies sin?

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? I don’t think you were, because you stated “Sure their capacity is a lot less, but I can’t say they can’t sin. In fact, it seems early in life a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendancies. Surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature.”

If you want to know about infant baptism, please feel free to start a new thread.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

Looking at your quote of mine that I already tried to answer your question.​

There’s tons of threads about infant baptism; do we need another?​

As far as speaking about infant baptism on a thread asking why I’m not a catholic not a catholic, I’d think it okay to speak about infant baptism if it answers the question.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Looking at your quote of mine that I already tried to answer your question.

This doesn’t make sense. It isn’t even a sentence.

There’s tons of threads about infant baptism; do we need another?

Obviously we do if you don’t understand it. And it seems to me that posting your questions on an existing baptism thread would make more sense than attempting to get me to answer questions when I’ve already explained I can’t answer.

As far as speaking about infant baptism on a thread asking why I’m not a catholic not a catholic, I’d think it okay to speak about infant baptism if it answers the question.

Yes, if it answers the question of why you’re not Catholic. You’re right. But I’m not the one to answer your questions about baptism. It’s new to me and I don’t want to post anything that is not Church teaching.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[Dokimas]

I think you’re trying to veer this thread off-topic.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

Look at your post that quoted me; I already tried to answer your question.​

I hope this clears it up. Sorry.

 

[Dokimas]

Obviously we do if you don’t understand it. And it seems to me that posting your questions on an existing baptism thread would make more sense than attempting to get me to answer questions when I’ve already explained I can’t answer.

Yes, if it answers the question of why you’re not Catholic. You’re right. But I’m not the one to answer your questions about baptism. It’s new to me and I don’t want to post anything that is not Church teaching.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

Are you saying I don’t understand baptism because I understand it differently than you?​

You don’t know why it was important to baptize you infants??? You don’t know what would happen to your un-baptized infants if they were to die???​

If you don’t know why, maybe you should do some research for yourself.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Look at your post that quoted me; I already tried to answer your question.​

I hope this clears it up. Sorry.

You didn’t answer my questions. Let me break it down for you.

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? This should be an easy yes/no question.

Why did you state “a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies (surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature)”?

I’ve already stated that original sin is inherited and that the baby is not culpable. You are stating that babies manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies. What tendencies? What sins? For a baby to sin, she would have to know the difference between right and wrong and would be performing a conscious act, not simply being born with something she has no control over. There’s a big difference between what one inherits (which one has no control over and therefore there is no culpability) and a conscious act of sinning (which would mean culpability).

What do babies do?:

They cry. Is that a sin?

They have no control over their bodily functions, so they need to have their diapers changed. Is that a sin?

They gurgle, drool, make bubbles. Is that a sin?

They need to be fed. Is that a sin?

Sometimes they vomit when they are fed. Is that a sin?

They need to be “burped” after feeding. Is that a sin?

I am confused. What can a baby do that is possibly a sin?

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[Dokimas]

You didn’t answer my questions. Let me break it down for you.

Were you referring to original sin when you stated that babies can sin? This should be an easy yes/no question.

Why did you state “a baby learns how to manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies (surely not ‘great’ sins, but shows they have a sin nature)”? Here’s my simple answer to your original simple question.

I’ve already stated that original sin is inherited and that the baby is not culpable. You are stating that babies manipulate their parents, meaning they have selfish tendencies. What tendencies? What sins? For a baby to sin, she would have to know the difference between right and wrong and would be performing a conscious act, not simply being born with something she has no control over. There’s a big difference between what one inherits (which one has no control over and therefore there is no culpability) and a conscious act of sinning (which would mean culpability).

What do babies do?: They smile, cuddle, poop in their diapers, eat, cry, laugh, etc.; am I warm?

They cry. Is that a sin? Most of the time it’s not motivated to manipulate but to communicate needs. If it’s to manipulate, the sin nature is being to have an effect, IMO.

They have no control over their bodily functions, so they need to have their diapers changed. Is that a sin?



Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

The rest of your questions, I’m sure you realize, were silly questions trying to make a point that I’m silly for believing what I think to be true.​

Okay, I’ve tried my best to aswer you… what does baptism do for an infant that makes it so important that they ‘must’ be baptized?​

Is your point about ‘all’ doesn’t mean all that Mary didn’t sin? Did she have a sin nature? How do you know?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Are you saying I don’t understand baptism because I understand it differently than you?​

You don’t know why it was important to baptize you infants??? You don’t know what would happen to your un-baptized infants if they were to die???​

If you don’t know why, maybe you should do some research for yourself.

I’m saying you must not understand the Catholic Church’s view on baptism, since you keep asking me about it.

No, I don’t know what happens to unbaptised children if they were to die. I rely on the love of God and put my trust in Him…

I have done some research and that is why I don’t know what happens to unbaptised children who die. As far as I know, the Church does not teach that she knows. We rely on the love of God and put our trust in Him. I do know it is important to baptise babies to erase original sin (as I have already stated) and that it is an introduction into the Church and a promise made by the parents to raise the baby in the Catholic Church.

I am not an expert on baptism. I never claimed to be and I won’t let you goad me into attempting to explain something when I’m not an expert on that particular issue.

My children (with one exception) died before birth. I request that you don’t bring this up again, as it is very hurtful to me and saddens me.

Are your comments being made in order to provoke me, or are you actually interested in learning Catholic Church teaching on baptism? If it’s the former it won’t work; if it’s the latter, I can only suggest that you post or talk to a person who is more knowledgeable on this issue than I am.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The rest of your questions, I’m sure you realize, were silly questions trying to make a point that I’m silly for believing what I think to be true.​

Okay, I’ve tried my best to aswer you… what does baptism do for an infant that makes it so important that they ‘must’ be baptized?​

Is your point about ‘all’ doesn’t mean all that Mary didn’t sin? Did she have a sin nature? How do you know?

If you honestly believe babies are capable of sinning, then I truly hope you don’t have any. Babies cannot sin. They are not culpable in terms of original sin and they can’t perform any act of sinning. They are truly innocent of any desire or capability of sinning.

You still haven’t given an example of a sin of which babies can be guilty. Simply saying they “manipulate” their parents is not a good answer. What about this is sinful? What do you even mean by “manipulate?” A concrete answer would be nice. What, exactly, do babies do that is sinning?

I’ve never heard of any church, Catholic or otherwise, that teaches that babies can sin.

My point about “all”? What are you talking about? What does Mary have to do with my questions about babies sinning?

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.