I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[TheLastProfit]

According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, the baby is a sinner since he has original sin. Or does not your church teach that?

Original Sin was passed on to the human race via Adam. Eve was the first to eat the apple but Adam was the one made responsible for his actions. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, he did not inherit the sin of his fathers linage because his father was his Father in Heaven. Or does your church not teach that?

 

[Zooey]

I always say the same thing when this question comes up, & I know that a lot of people are probably sick of hearing me say this, but: God wants me to be a Methodist.

Don’t know why.
Not about to argue with Him.

 

[Zooey]

Then was does baptism do for infants. I know of two situations were parents of two babies did not believe in baptism for their children but family members were upset that the babies weren’t baptized when illness was involved. So if there’s not sin or culpability, then why baptize a dying infant?

Baptism cleanses from the stain of original sin.
It also (and this is where babies come in, IMHO) imparts prevenient grace.
God’s prevenient grace not only cleanses from sin; it also gives great graces to the baptized, which are immensely beneficial to the child who is dying. Baptism is the greatest gift a parent can give a child…(Actually, & please remember that this is my own 2 cents here, but I actually consider denying babies baptism is a form of spiritual abuse, Every child has a right to be baptized. How much more so,then, the child who is dying!).).

 

[LittleSoldier]

The rest of your questions, I’m sure you realize, were silly questions trying to make a point that I’m silly for believing what I think to be true.

Wow! You can read my mind? I’m impressed!

The truth is that you really have no idea why I posted what I posted.

If you really believe that babies can sin, then you don’t understand babies.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

 

[Dokimas]

No, I don’t know what happens to unbaptised children if they were to die. I rely on the love of God and put my trust in Him…

I am not an expert on baptism. I never claimed to be and I won’t let you goad me into attempting to explain something when I’m not an expert on that particular issue.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

Sorry for your loss.​

I agree that the love of God and His mercy is ALL infants need. They don’t need to be baptized. In fact, if you look at the NT, baptism is done to the repentant. As you’ve been trying to say, and I’ll grant you that your opinion makes much sense, infants don’t have a need to repent.

 

[TheLastProfit]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about original sin and how it applies to babies. I don’t think that there is much point in debating about how sinful a baby could be, any parent would provide a reasonable answer. Original sin holds responsibility for our immortality. Death, disease, the damn ugly, all are biproducts of original sin. A baby can fall sick and die, that is how they are exposed to original sin.
As for Baptism, no it does not make one immortal, at least not in the physical world. Baptism is more for the spiritual journey. I think that the question about unbaptised children is more for the parents and how they intend to raise their child than it is for the child it’s self.

 

[Dokimas]

Wow! You can read my mind? I’m impressed!

The truth is that you really have no idea why I posted what I posted.

If you really believe that babies can sin, then you don’t understand babies.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

I can not read your mind. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because I doubted you really thought I thought a hungry crying baby was sinning. If you thought I thought that all crying babies all the time were sinning, I apologize for my off the wall comment. It was wrong of me to think you were being silly making a point to me.​

I’ve had two babies and observed many others. It seems obvious to me a young one early on learns their parent or other adults around them can be manipulated. That, IMO, reveals that they have a sin nature. Is it full blown sin? Not the issue, IMO.​

Remember these are my opinions. I speak for ME; not for a church and I’m not stupid enough to think I speak for God.​

Now, could you please tell me why this point is so important to you?

 

[Dokimas]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about original sin and how it applies to babies. I don’t think that there is much point in debating about how sinful a baby could be, any parent would provide a reasonable answer. Original sin holds responsibility for our immortality. Death, disease, the damn ugly, all are biproducts of original sin. A baby can fall sick and die, that is how they are exposed to original sin.
As for Baptism, no it does not make one immortal, at least not in the physical world. Baptism is more for the spiritual journey. I think that the question about unbaptised children is more for the parents and how they intend to raise their child than it is for the child it’s self.

We dedicated our babies to God before our church. We proclaimed our desire and gave our word to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. We left them to get baptized when they understood their need for real repentance and when they knew they needed the Blood of Jesus to cleanse them from their sin. It was their decision. BTW, Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to be dedicated to the Lord and Jesus made His own decision to be baptized (although He didn’t need baptism as we should be baptized, IMO).

 

[rev_kevin]

We dedicated our babies to God before our church. We proclaimed our desire and gave our word to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. We left them to get baptized when they understood their need for real repentance and when they knew they needed the Blood of Jesus to cleanse them from their sin. It was their decision. BTW, Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to be dedicated to the Lord and Jesus made His own decision to be baptized (although He didn’t need baptism as we should be baptized, IMO).

 

[TheLastProfit]

We dedicated our babies to God before our church. We proclaimed our desire and gave our word to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. We left them to get baptized when they understood their need for real repentance and when they knew they needed the Blood of Jesus to cleanse them from their sin. It was their decision. BTW, Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to be dedicated to the Lord and Jesus made His own decision to be baptized (although He didn’t need baptism as we should be baptized, IMO).

The baby wasn’t old enough to make his own decision. That is why some churchs don’t regard baptism to be valid until the person is old enough to make his own decision.

 

[Dokimas]

Baptism cleanses from the stain of original sin.
It also (and this is where babies come in, IMHO) imparts prevenient grace.
God’s prevenient grace not only cleanses from sin; it also gives great graces to the baptized, which are immensely beneficial to the child who is dying. Baptism is the greatest gift a parent can give a child…(Actually, & please remember that this is my own 2 cents here, but I actually consider denying babies baptism is a form of spiritual abuse, Every child has a right to be baptized. How much more so,then, the child who is dying!).).

I’m confused. I thought Jesus loved children. So Jesus will reject dieing graces to a dieing baby because I was a bad parent and did not get my baby baptized? Sorry, that makes NO sense to me. Jesus is far bigger than by sinfulness toward my children; He is more loving than to have to have infants baptized. And I’m told I put God in a box. I’m confused.

 

[Dokimas]

The baby wasn’t old enough to make his own decision. That is why some churchs don’t regard baptism to be valid until the person is old enough to make his own decision.

Understood and is my position.

 

[Janet1983]

I think you’re trying to veer this thread off-topic. I’m not going to respond to your questions until you answer mine. How can babies sin?

LOL… off-topic. The topic of the thread was “I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?”
No need to try and stay on topic as this little conversation is already off-topic.

 

[TheLastProfit]

LOL… off-topic. The topic of the thread was “I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?”
No need to try and stay on topic as this little conversation is already off-topic.

I agree Janet, I just jumped in to this thread as well and had to change subjects when I jumped to the last page, but that is how threads evolve.
To get back on topic, I would say that the difference between Catholics and many other Christians is not our understanding of Jesus but our knowledge of his father. The Trinity is something that many Christians do not believe in.

 

[rev_kevin]

Baptism cleanses from the stain of original sin.
It also (and this is where babies come in, IMHO) imparts prevenient grace.
God’s prevenient grace not only cleanses from sin; it also gives great graces to the baptized, which are immensely beneficial to the child who is dying. Baptism is the greatest gift a parent can give a child…(Actually, & please remember that this is my own 2 cents here, but I actually consider denying babies baptism is a form of spiritual abuse, Every child has a right to be baptized. How much more so,then, the child who is dying!).).

What if the child/baby wasn’t baptized and way in, lets say, a car acciedent. What happens to the child/baby?
A} does Jesus tell the child/baby sorry you are not baptized so I will condemn you to hell.
B} does Jesus tell the child/baby its not my fault your parents didn’t have you baptizes so because of that you can’t enter into heaven.
C} does Jesus tell the child/baby you were not baptized and your original sin is still there, come in its not your fault.
Do you think just because a child/baby is not baptized that God will reject that child/baby?
I think not.

 

[Zooey]

Wow! You can read my mind? I’m impressed!

The truth is that you really have no idea why I posted what I posted.

If you really believe that babies can sin, then you don’t understand babies.

Holy Mother, please keep
all unborn children safe today.

I’ve had two babies and observed many others. It seems obvious to me a young one early on learns their parent or other adults around them can be manipulated.

**[SIGN1] **
Piffle.
Pshaw.
Pfui!!!
[/SIGN1]
Babies aren’t developmentally able to manipulate anybody or anything. Babies aren’t even aware of being separate from other people. They are BABIES.
Assigning them sinful motives is the kind of thing that leads people into mistreating the poor wee things. Babies act like babies because that is all they are able to do, because God made them that way.
Don’t assign evil motives to the innocent.

I’m confused. I thought Jesus loved children. So Jesus will reject dieing graces to a dieing baby because I was a bad parent and did not get my baby baptized? Sorry, that makes NO sense to me. Jesus is far bigger than by sinfulness toward my children; He is more loving than to have to have infants baptized. And I’m told I put God in a box. I’m confused.

Jesus does love children. That is why He wants them to be baptized.
Sometimes, it is not possible for a baby to be baptized. Some die before they are even born. We trust that God is loving & merciful, and will care for babies who are unbaptized.
That does not excuse the parent who waits “until they understand” to let the child decide if s/he wants to be baptized. Would you let a baby wait to ask for a bath before you wash him? Would you let children get old enough to say, “I have a toothache” before you buy teething tablets?** Neglect is neglect**.

And this is NOT talking about babies that someone lost before they were born, babies whose parents loved & wanted them, who still love them, & look for the day they can hold them in Heaven.
This is talking about people working out some vague theological fine point to excuse parents from the proper spiritual care of their children. That makes me .

 

[Zooey]

What if the child/baby wasn’t baptized and way in, lets say, a car acciedent. What happens to the child/baby?
A} does Jesus tell the child/baby sorry you are not baptized so I will condemn you to hell.
B} does Jesus tell the child/baby its not my fault your parents didn’t have you baptizes so because of that you can’t enter into heaven.
C} does Jesus tell the child/baby you were not baptized and your original sin is still there, come in its not your fault.
Do you think just because a child/baby is not baptized that God will reject that child/baby?
I think not.

I’m not worried about the fate of the baby.
I am VERY worried about the fate of the parents.
That little baby is in Heaven; what a tragedy for the mother and/or father if their spiritual neglect of that little child means that they will never join their wean in Heaven. It is that serious.

 

[scottwesner]

From a 7th or 8th century Latin Text:O Christ, our hope, our hearts desire, redemption’s only spring, Creator of the world art thou, it’s Savior and it’s King.
How vast the mercy and the love which laid our sins on thee, and led thee to a cruel death to set thy people free.
O may thy mighty love prevail, our sinful souls to spare. O may we come before thy throne, and find acceptance there!
1 Peter Chapter 1:21-25(NAB-Catholic Study Bible)For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his foosteps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When He was insulted, He returned no insult;when He suffered, He did not threaten;instead, He handed himself over to the One who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteouseness, By his wounds you have been healed. For you had gone astray like sheep, but you have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

 

[rev_kevin]

I’m not worried about the fate of the baby.
I am VERY worried about the fate of the parents.
That little baby is in Heaven; what a tragedy for the mother and/or father if their spiritual neglect of that little child means that they will never join their wean in Heaven. It is that serious.

So your saying that the parents will be damned to hell because they did not get their child baptized. Can you tell me or show me where it say that?
You said it was neglect. Well child neglect is against the law, should the authorites get involved for the neglect of not having their child baptized? Remember you said neglect is neglect.

 

[Dokimas]

**[SIGN1] **
Piffle.
Pshaw.
Pfui!!!
[/SIGN1]
Babies aren’t developmentally able to manipulate anybody or anything. Babies aren’t even aware of being separate from other people. They are BABIES.
Assigning them sinful motives is the kind of thing that leads people into mistreating the poor wee things. Babies act like babies because that is all they are able to do, because God made them that way.
Don’t assign evil motives to the innocent.

Jesus does love children. That is why He wants them to be baptized.
Sometimes, it is not possible for a baby to be baptized. Some die before they are even born. We trust that God is loving & merciful, and will care for babies who are unbaptized.
That does not excuse the parent who waits “until they understand” to let the child decide if s/he wants to be baptized. Would you let a baby wait to ask for a bath before you wash him? Would you let children get old enough to say, “I have a toothache” before you buy teething tablets?** Neglect is neglect**.

And this is NOT talking about babies that someone lost before they were born, babies whose parents loved & wanted them, who still love them, & look for the day they can hold them in Heaven.
This is talking about people working out some vague theological fine point to excuse parents from the proper spiritual care of their children. That makes me .

Here’s my suggestion to you: stop trying to reason with me because I’m unreasonable, thus you will not be able to reason with me so I’ll understand. I’m truly a lost cause. Nice try but your reasoning have fallen on ‘deaf’ ears.​

BTW, don’t worry about my children; they are grown up and have been baptized at the time they decided to be baptized. They’re okay in spite of how bad a parent I was.