I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[guanophore]

No offense meant to the wonderful mother of Jesus, but Mary was not born without original sin, IMO. There is no credible Bible evidence to prove your assertion, IMO.​

Jesus needed a willing human woman, not a sinless one. If He only chooses sinless people to dwell in, we’re in trouble, big trouble.

This goes quite a bit beyond 'dwelling in" as the HS does with us. Jesus took His flesh from her flesh. He prepared her for that task in purity just as the Ark of the OT was prepared. Mary had a role that no one else in humanity ever had, or ever will. This is why the Church gave her the title of Theotokos (God bearer). Jesus did not just pass through her supernaturally. He was conceived in her womb, and all that was human of Him was taken out of her body. Why would he take something tainted by sin into Himself?

 

[guanophore]

IMO, there’s not credible evidence baptism replace circumcism. Did you know there was baptism in the OT? The OT had both circumcision and baptism.

Yes. It was customary for converts. This is why it is called “the circumcision made without hands”. The HS circumcises the heart of the person in baptism.

ariel.org/qa.htm

A:To answer your question, baptism was a common Jewish practice long before it became a Christian practice. The basic Hebrew meaning of baptism is identification. When one was baptized he identified himself with a person, and/or message, and/or group. In Judaism, when a Gentile underwent the process of conversion to Judaism, he would also be baptized and, by so doing, would identify himself with Judaism and the Jewish people. Those who were being baptized by John were identifying themselves with John’s repentance movement and with the message he was proclaiming concerning the soon coming of the King. By being baptized by John, they were making a commitment that whomever John declared Messiah to be, they would accept Him as the Messiah.

Do you not agree that this is the Christian understanding of baptism? Do you not understand being united with Him in His death and resurrection this way? It seems clear that the factiousness that developed (“I am of Paul, I am of Cephas”) were about identification.

-In believer’s baptism we identify ourselves with the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[guanophore]

I can look and see two apples in one hand and two apples in the other hand make four apples. I have not memorized anything except the words used to communicate. I don’t need to articulate why I don’t have 9 apples to see that I have only 4.

Yes, you do need to articulate that, if you really want to pursuade someone that you understand why they have nine and you don’t, and they think they have the right number, adn you don’t. If you can’t articulate the opposing side, there will be no way to pursuade the other that you really understand their position.

Basically what you are saying is “I know that what I have is right, and I don’t need to understand what you have, or why it is different”.

 

[guanophore]

This post is a bit vague, and rambles some! Scriptures can be interpreted by people other than the pope, and bishops, etc. All of us who are in Christ, have received the gift of the Holy Spirit(Acts 2:38), and the Holy Spirit leads us into Spirit and Truth! “You will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

Yes, of course! There are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons.

That is why there are so many denominations.

The point is that the HS always leads into unity, and He will not give one person an interpretation that is contrary to what he has already given to the Church for 2000 years.

 

[guanophore]

It is not now, nor has it ever been about “appointing oneself!” Do you mean to tell me that you cannot read scripture and figure out what it means,; without a priest’s help? What does this verse mean to you: “Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted in all nations.” And we have heard about apostolic succession ad nauseum If the men who supposedly succeeded the apostles, are the only ones who can interpret scripture than why do the rest of us Christians bother reading our Bibles? Quit trying to keep the Bible all to yourself!

Everyone is encouraged to read Scripture. It is to be read from the point of view of the faith that produced it, In the case of the NT, that is Catholic faith.

When one reads it in separation from the faith that produced it, one ends up with a wrong conclusion.

 

[1beleevr]

Everyone is encouraged to read Scripture. It is to be read from the point of view of the faith that produced it, In the case of the NT, that is Catholic faith.

When one reads it in separation from the faith that produced it, one ends up with a wrong conclusion.

Along with free will, came differences of opinion and interpretaton!

 

[1beleevr]

Yes, of course! There are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons.

That is why there are so many denominations.

The point is that the HS always leads into unity, and He will not give one person an interpretation that is contrary to what he has already given to the Church for 2000 years.

But, I still believe that the Holy Spirit(the same one which led the Israelites, is in ALL of us Christians! And He leads us into Truth!

 

[1beleevr]

I don’t get it… If you are a catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a non-catholic Christian?

 

[guanophore]

Along with free will, came differences of opinion and interpretaton!

Yes, of course! The fact that we tend to exercise our free will in such a manner that departs from god’s intention for us has been going on since the Fall.

The reason He created a Church, authorized Teachers and Pastors, and promised to lead that Church into all truth is exactly the reason you give here. Since we do have a free will, there will always be differences of opinon and interpretation. However, the revelation of God to us is not a matter for human differences of opinion and interpretation. He is Truth, and that fullness of Truth is found in the Church He created upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets. That is why our personal differences of opinion and interpretation need to be set aside when they conflict with what He revealed to His Church.

But, I still believe that the Holy Spirit(the same one which led the Israelites, is in ALL of us Christians! And He leads us into Truth!

Yes, this is certainly true. However, the HS always leads into unity,a nd He will never lead one individual in the opposite direction from where He has already led the Church.

And, as we see in the pattern left for us of Israel, He works through the authority He has appointed over the people. Those who take it upon themselves to become their own authority, disregarding what God has appointed, suffer grave consequences.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t get it… If you are a catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a non-catholic Christian?

I spent about 20 years trolling about in Protesatant communities. Ulitimately I decided to close my research, because I found that part of the Apostolic message was missing everywhere. Each community had departed to some extent from the Church founded by Christ. I did not want to settle for less, or an abridged version of the gospel.

 

[1beleevr]

Yes, of course! The fact that we tend to exercise our free will in such a manner that departs from god’s intention for us has been going on since the Fall.

The reason He created a Church, authorized Teachers and Pastors, and promised to lead that Church into all truth is exactly the reason you give here. Since we do have a free will, there will always be differences of opinon and interpretation. However, the revelation of God to us is not a matter for human differences of opinion and interpretation. He is Truth, and that fullness of Truth is found in the Church He created upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets. That is why our personal differences of opinion and interpretation need to be set aside when they conflict with what He revealed to His Church.

Yes, this is certainly true. However, the HS always leads into unity,a nd He will never lead one individual in the opposite direction from where He has already led the Church.

And, as we see in the pattern left for us of Israel, He works through the authority He has appointed over the people. Those who take it upon themselves to become their own authority, disregarding what God has appointed, suffer grave consequences.

I guess the point I’m trying to make is this; I can read the Bible(and I do, everyday), and understand what I am reading, thanks to the discernment granted me from the Holy Spirit! I realize that there is a faction, which believes that there is only ONE way to read and interpret scripture, thus the division among Christians! Last year, I was reading in 2 Samuel, as part of my Bible reading. When I read 2 Samuel 14:14, I was amazed that I had never seen it as a reference to Jesus:thumbsup: Where it says," He never leaves His people without way to get back to Him!" And Psalms 46:10, tells me to “Be still, and know that I am God!” This is one of the most calming verses in the Bible, and reassures us that He is there for us always! Since the catholics did not write or interpret the Old Testament, they houldn’t be able to tell us if we are misinterpreting scripture.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I guess the point I’m trying to make is this; I can read the Bible(and I do, everyday), and understand what I am reading, thanks to the discernment granted me from the Holy Spirit! I realize that there is a faction, which believes that there is only ONE way to read and interpret scripture, thus the division among Christians! Last year, I was reading in 2 Samuel, as part of my Bible reading. When I read 2 Samuel 14:14, I was amazed that I had never seen it as a reference to Jesus:thumbsup: Where it says," He never leaves His people without way to get back to Him!" And Psalms 46:10, tells me to “Be still, and know that I am God!” This is one of the most calming verses in the Bible, and reassures us that He is there for us always! Since the catholics did not write or interpret the Old Testament, they houldn’t be able to tell us if we are misinterpreting scripture.

“Be still, and know that I am God!”
I like this verse.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

In the interests of positive thinking, I’ll first list why I would consider the Catholic Church.

1. It stands up boldly against the evils of abortion and homosexuality, which the rest of the world (and, I am ashamed to say, much of my own church) increasingly thinks are just fine.

2. J.R.R. Tolkien belonged to it.

3. The new Anglican Ordinariates will (I hope) have a simply beautify liturgy full of thees and thous and vouchsafes.

4. While it doesn’t teach the salvation of pluralism and relativism so common in liberal Protestantism, neither does it teach the unquestionable loss and perdition of ignorant pagans so common in conservative Protestantism.

But…

1. It seems so legalistic, on matters not relating to actual morality. One example: the obligation to attend Sunday Mass. Now I do go to church every Sunday, and I like doing so. But if for some reason I decide not to go one day, no one will condemn me. Making it obligatory turns a joyful thing done freely into a burden. 1 Corinthians 9:7 says: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” And I think the same holds true for churchgoing.

2. All the load of dogmas about St. Mary. Now there’s naught wrong at all with honoring her. I’m not one of those poor souls who think praying the Ave Maria is idolatry. Was she assumed bodily into heaven? Maybe she was. It’s a sound idea. But to require that all the faithful believe it without question? Why O Why O Why? The same thing goes for her perpetual virginity. But the idea of her sinlessness seems to cross the line to actual contradiction with Scripture.

3. Its history. Now I know Protestants have also done horrid things it the past. But it seems to me that if you call yourself the One True Visible Body of Christ on Earth, you ought to be held up to a little higher standard than those who make no such claims.

4. It seems to me that, if Christ did found His Church as one and visibly united, that the Orthodox have just as good a claim as the Catholics do.

this post nails it!

 

[1beleevr]

this post nails it!

Chew on this morsel: The same Spirit that led the Israelites through the desert, and Abraham, lives in ALL Christians today! Totally A-W-E-S-O-M-E! What a humbling thought!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

God led the people through Noah, Abraham and then Moses. Why is it so hard to accept He chose, and chooses, to lead His people through a single leader?

He chose and appointed Peter over His Church of Christians, of the new and everlasting covenant.

Someone wrote reasons they’re not Catholic, but fail to recognize the many differences one would have to list in deciding which Protestant group would be correct. That backs the nail out for a lot of people, because it’s just to much to chew on…

 

[1beleevr]

God led the people through Noah, Abraham and then Moses. Why is it so hard to accept He chose, and chooses, to lead His people through a single leader?

He chose and appointed Peter over His Church of Christians, of the new and everlasting covenant.

Someone wrote reasons they’re not Catholic, but fail to recognize the many differences one would have to list in deciding which Protestant group would be correct. That backs the nail out for a lot of people, because it’s just to much to chew on…

No matter how you try, you can’t deny the presence of the HOly Spirit in US!!!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No matter how you try, you can’t deny the presence of the HOly Spirit in US!!!

I don’t deny it and find it just an ad hominem to even say so.

I do deny people leading themselves as being God’s way, according to what scriptures tell us. God has always had a leader on earth.

 

[1beleevr]

I don’t deny it and find it just an ad hominem to even say so.

I do deny people leading themselves as being God’s way, according to what scriptures tell us. God has always had a leader on earth.

Oh, you catholics and your ad hominems! I know that God has always had LEADERS on earth; but Jesus also promised ALL OF US an Advocate. He said that He and the Father would come to live inside of us! So, that said, I am led by the Holy Spirit!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Oh, you catholics and your ad hominems! I know that God has always had LEADERS on earth; but Jesus also promised ALL OF US an Advocate. He said that He and the Father would come to live inside of us! So, that said, I am led by the Holy Spirit!

He promised that to the men He chose and appointed over His Church. They were the only ones present when He spoke those words.

 

[1beleevr]

He promised that to the men He chose and appointed over His Church. They were the only ones present when He spoke those words.

I do not appoint myself, nor do I lead myself; but if you deny the presence of the Holy Spirit in me, then you, in essence deny my Christianity!