I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Jimmy_B]

My point was the killing of pregnant women and their fetuses in those mass slaughters (I consider them virtually indiscriminate slaughters, where God kills everyone alive in a city because of the actions of the adults). Are the fetuses of sinners “weeds” worthy of destruction?

“Therefore, since God is the first effective cause of all things, it is manifest that the aspect of good and of desirableness belong to Him“

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Shorter Summa
Article 1. Whether God is good”

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Wisdom 15:1-3
But you, our God, are good and true, slow to anger, and governing all with mercy. For even if we sin, we are yours, and know your might; but we will not sin, knowing that we belong to you. For to know you well is complete justice, and to know your might is the root of immortality.
Proverbs 3:5,6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not; In all your ways be mindful of him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes, fear the LORD and turn away from evil;
Romans 8:28
We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Continued on next post -

 

[Jimmy_B]

My point was the killing of pregnant women and their fetuses in those mass slaughters (I consider them virtually indiscriminate slaughters, where God kills everyone alive in a city because of the actions of the adults). Are the fetuses of sinners “weeds” worthy of destruction?

Continued from last post -

Genesis 50:20
Even though you meant harm to me, God meant it for good, to achieve his present end, the survival of many people.
Genesis 1:31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good…
Psalms 1:6
Therefore the wicked will not survive judgment, nor will sinners in the assembly of the just. The LORD watches over the way of the just, but the way of the wicked leads to ruin.
1 Timothy 4:4
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Lamentations 3:25
Good is the LORD to one who waits for him, to the soul that seeks him;
Psalms 51:3-6
Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense. Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me. For I know my offense; my sin is always before me. Against you alone have I sinned; I have done such evil in your sight That you are just in your sentence, blameless when you condemn.
Psalms 73:1
A psalm of Asaph. How good God is to the upright, the Lord, to those who are clean of heart!
Psalms 106:1
Hallelujah! Give thanks to the LORD, who is good, whose love endures forever. (See also: Psalms 107:1, Psalms 118:1, Psalms 118:29, Psalms 136:1-3.)

 

[Jimmy_B]

http://fratres.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pope-benedict-xvi-blessing-of-the-host.jpg
I don’t get it…if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren’t you a Catholic Christian?
This is a serious question, so please post your reason here… Please, don’t be afraid to voice your opinion and to defend your own particular denomination.
I am not the only Catholic here at CAF, or elsewhere, who wonders and wants to know the answer to this question.
If any Catholics, or any converts to Catholicism here, have any insight to the answer, or possible answer(s) to this question, then please post a response here.
Your thoughts?

 

[Berean2]

(Repost of OP)

Excellent, Jimmy: I just learned a new trick on how to be irenic! Gonna put it into practice next time it needs doing elsewhere.

PS: To answer your question (not exhaustively, bec. of TOS restrictions), in my case first, bec. I’m leary of joining ANY church (only did that once, when I lived elsewhere, for a year, back in the late 80’s, and that was only bec. 3x the LORD nudged me that way), and secondly, bec. even tho my beliefs on many points intersect with RC teaching, still, on too many other points, they diverge.

 

[benedictus2]

My tone with “worthy” was meant to be ironic, of course. And I am not the one devaluing life by suggesting that genocide, as long as it is by God, is ok.

Can parents do with their “creations” what God can do with his? (ie, kill them when they do wrong).

Children are not their parents “creation”. We are all God’s creation. Now, to the things that man creates. Would you not say that if you created a beautiful piece of art work, you have the right to do with it as you please since you created it. If you are a writer, you can decide how things will end, what sort of main character,etc, etc.

We are conduits of creation but no, we are not the creators.

Mind you, some behave as it they are the creators and it is exactly this kind of thinking that permeates atheistic and agnostic philosphy hence the support for abortion - the right to kill their own child.

 

[benedictus2]

What is not relativistic about giving God a pass to do what he does not grant others a pass to do?

This is really getting tiresome. How many times do we have to say this? God has a right to do as He please because He is God. He is the Author of everything. Every single person who dies do so because God has allowed it, genocide or no genocide. Some die by genocide, other’s naturally, others by accident,etc. But in the end all die because God has decreed that it is time.

In other words, the rule barring genocide or the killing of innocents does not apply to God.

Genocide is only genocide from our perspective. Because we are not the author of life. If you made a beautiful painting and someone else ripped it to shreds then that is evil. But if you rip your own painting to shred, well that is you right because that is your creation.

Which I find rather “relativistic” for a rule.

Then you’ve got no idea what relativism means.

The same way that stop signs don’t apply to all vehicles. The same way that intentional killing does not apply to all circumstances. The same way that adultery and incest are excused in the Bible as long as it is in service of God. The same way that Christians (most) do not follow all of the rules of the OT but just some of them, claiming that we are in a new era of understanding. I actually agree that we are in a new era, but I don’t argue that there is an objective morality and then make all sorts of apologetic arguments for why the rules don’t apply everywhere equally.

Here you’ve got relativism right. That is indeed relativism when you say there is no objective morality. So to extend your reasoning, since there is no objective morality, therefore paedophiles cannot be hold to account for their crime because of after all, they don’t consider what they are doing evil. Murderers too and just about every single evil act can be excused that way. I will do what I think is okay. Hmm, you’ve got a rather gloomy prescription for society.

As I have always said, relativism is no more than self-deification And how it shows in your post.

Of course they don’t. I see no evidence that they ever have. Both religious justice and secular justice have both been, in the final analysis, relativistic enterprises despite their efforts to be as objective as possible.

Well the way we are currently going, there is not even an effort to be objective. They completely turfed that out of the window.

 

[benedictus2]

So the rules did change? That’s my only point. Christians do not follow all of the rules of the OT. I get accused of the same. Looks like we’re all cherry-pickers. I just don’t deny it.

Nope, the rule did not change. That Christians do not follow all the rules have nothing to do with rules not changing. And yes, most people are cherry pickers. But just because most people are cherry pickers (you know demanding to be God and decides which rules they will and will not obey), does not mean that cherry picking in this context is okay. It is very “not okay” but hey, that’s why we’ve got free will. We can follow God or we can follow the self.

 

[benedictus2]

Nope.

Aaah, I empathize. indeed.

 

[benedictus2]

He has taken me places I would have never gone myself; thank God

John 21:18 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

 

[larkin31]

Nope, the rule did not change. That Christians do not follow all the rules have nothing to do with rules not changing. And yes, most people are cherry pickers. But just because most people are cherry pickers (you know demanding to be God and decides which rules they will and will not obey), does not mean that cherry picking in this context is okay. It is very “not okay” but hey, that’s why we’ve got free will. We can follow God or we can follow the self.

Do you and your denomination follow all of the rules of Leviticus?

 

[1beleevr]

Hi there petal, long time no hear indeed! Have been too busy of late so gave up CAF for a while.

Nope I am not assuming. I am merely making an illustration. So humour me here. Tell me, do you think what a pagan believes is on par with what you believe? If you meet a pagan, hindu, etc, would you try to convert them to Christianity? If so, why would you do that? Wouldn’t that be because you believe that your faith is superior to theirs?

Would really like you to answer those questions.

Yes, some of us can be quite passionate at times. But that is neither here nor there. As I have stated before. Just concentrate on the arguments, and forget about the attitude. That in the end does not matter. The only thing that matters is the Truth.
Again, forget about the attitude, just concentrate on the points being raised.
Very well said! :clapping::clapping: You know what, even though I have been away from CAF I have thought about you and your dedication to Jesus, quite a lot. And I must say I really admire that.

What brought that about was a conversation I had with another Catholic who said she does not want to wear a cross or anything that will identify her as a Christian and I thought my! she is almost embarassed by it. And this whole thing started because inspite of the errors in their belief, I really admire the passion of those so called “Bible bashers” who risk ridicule for the sake of Christ.

The past few months I have been reading up on New Age and how it has been steadily encroaching into our parishes and into Catholic consciousness that I suddenly realized that I have more in common with Protestants who truly believe and love the Lord than these so called Catholics who have allowed their beliefs to be corrupted by Buddhist and Hindu influences. I mean, we have priests and nuns whose beliefs are more pantheistic than theistic.

And I thought of you and your ministry and your un-equivocal position on the Lordship of Christ and I thought now that is really something. So yes, kudos to you indeed.

Well not quite. The promise of the guidance of the Holy Spirit is for the Church. But it does not mean that He abandons those outside of her. I think He continues to guide them and that continued guidance is to lead them back home to His one true Church.

Sadly, the attitude will remain. If one has an attitude, the attitude will remain regardless of their faith affiliation. That is why I keep saying, forget about the attitude. That is a fact of life. Just continue seeking after the truth. Concentrate on the arguments.

Hey, you! My faith is not superior to anyone’s; merely stating that most catholics I know put forth an air of superiority, when it comes to faith! And I don’t try to convert anyone, only the Holy Spirit can do that! I, though as a witness for Christ, can plant “seeds” of hope, and encouragement; share the Gospel with whomever God puts in my path! What does a pagan believe? Do they have a God? We sorta of know what Hindus believe, but I do not knock anyone’s faith. It may seem so to some catholics since I question them on things like confessing to a man, wearing crucifixes, and exalting Mary, etc. My faith is my faith, and yours is yours! Are there noncatholic people I encounter who come across as arrogant and holier-than-thou? Of course there are, but the ratio, is far greater in the catholic community! I know that you are passionate about your religion, but we could do without the foul language, my goodness!!! And I know that attitudes are a part of life;working in prison for 21 years has shown me that! But the point I’m trying to make, is this; we can do without the negativity, and love each other as we love ourselves(second greatest commandment), and pray for our “enemies”.God has richly blessed me in my life, as well as my 43 year Christian walk! It wouldn’t matter what title anyone put on me, my relationship with Jesus is all that matters! He has led me into so much Truth, and continues to guide me through this maze we call life, continually reminding me of the eternal life He promised me. Love you sister!

 

[1beleevr]

Nope, the rule did not change. That Christians do not follow all the rules have nothing to do with rules not changing. And yes, most people are cherry pickers. But just because most people are cherry pickers (you know demanding to be God and decides which rules they will and will not obey), does not mean that cherry picking in this context is okay. It is very “not okay” but hey, that’s why we’ve got free will. We can follow God or we can follow the self.

I would believe that by “most people”, you include catholics?

 

[1beleevr]

So what have you learned about the CC since being on the CAFs? (yes, yes, I know that you’re really disenchanted with many Catholics here…understood and acknowledged.)

I’d like to know if anything you thought about Catholicism has been changed since coming here. Be honest, my dear friend! Isn’t there anything about Catholicism (again, not Catholics, but Catholicism) that you’ve been impressed with since coming here?

I came on this forum, because I was confused by messages I was getting from catholic friends and co-workers! I have learned that catholics are very passionate about their religion, they exalt Mary more than any other religion/denomination! Their allegiance to the pope and other men in the church is fierce! I found that they believe that you must confess to a man, refrain from eating meat on Fridays and call the pope holy father! I have chosen to remain noncatholic, because I have not seen anything here tha would make my relationship with Jesus any better! I have also found that cathoics(those I have met anyway) love to cuss and drink, and cheat on their spouses! Sad, but true! I love all of you guys in spite of our differences, and will not allow that to divide us!

 

[Soldier_X]

Brand new, but can’t read 78 pages of discussion. If the questions is “Why aren’t you Catholic,” my answer is that I’m still wrestling with the Catholic vs. Orthodox question (don’t want to debate that here and derail the thread). At the moment, I’m neither. I’m trying to determine what God wants me to do. It’s more a question of where He wants me to worship and serve than who is “right.” I want to follow in His path and adjust my mistaken theological presuppositions accordingly…

 

[1beleevr]

Brand new, but can’t read 78 pages of discussion. If the questions is “Why aren’t you Catholic,” my answer is that I’m still wrestling with the Catholic vs. Orthodox question (don’t want to debate that here and derail the thread). At the moment, I’m neither. I’m trying to determine what God wants me to do. It’s more a question of where He wants me to worship and serve than who is “right.” I want to follow in His path and adjust my mistaken theological presuppositions accordingly…

Nice post, very nice! You summed it up very well!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Brand new, but can’t read 78 pages of discussion. If the questions is “Why aren’t you Catholic,” my answer is that I’m still wrestling with the Catholic vs. Orthodox question (don’t want to debate that here and derail the thread). At the moment, I’m neither. I’m trying to determine what God wants me to do. It’s more a question of where He wants me to worship and serve than who is “right.” I want to follow in His path and adjust my mistaken theological presuppositions accordingly…

Wecome!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Brand new, but can’t read 78 pages of discussion. If the questions is “Why aren’t you Catholic,” my answer is that I’m still wrestling with the Catholic vs. Orthodox question (don’t want to debate that here and derail the thread). At the moment, I’m neither. I’m trying to determine what God wants me to do. It’s more a question of where He wants me to worship and serve than who is “right.” I want to follow in His path and adjust my mistaken theological presuppositions accordingly…

Give it your best shot . I think people might have already
attempted that… That’s why we are here … it’s just words…

 

[Soldier_X]

Thank you very much!

 

[PRmerger]

Do you and your denomination follow all of the rules of Leviticus?

Nope. We follow the rules of Christ, who is the fulfillment of the Law.

 

[PRmerger]

I came on this forum, because I was confused by messages I was getting from catholic friends and co-workers! I have learned that catholics are very passionate about their religion, they exalt Mary more than any other religion/denomination! Their allegiance to the pope and other men in the church is fierce! I found that they believe that you must confess to a man, refrain from eating meat on Fridays and call the pope holy father!

Is there anything you learned, after being on the CAFs about Catholicism that corrected your prior view? That is, for example, did you used to think we worshipped Mary, but now know that we honor her?

Is there anything at all like that?

I love all of you guys in spite of our differences, and will not allow that to divide us!

Right back at cha! :hug1: