I don't get it

[therese14]

I don’t get it.

Blessed Pope Urban II, the one who preached the first crusade, to take over Jerusalem from moslem rules, this is a war obviously. And he said that whoever partakes if this war is forgiven of their sins and granted plenary indulgence.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Urban_II

So he is raised to be a saint by the catholic church.

Pope Innocent IV convoked First Council of Lyon and in that council he give directives about the crusades
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Lyon

In 1962 Blessed Pope Paul VI, in Second Vatican Council, and he give directives about religious freedom, that we must honor other people with other religion. With love and respect.

In 2005, St Pope John Paul, applied this directives in the Second Vatican Council, and honor all people with different religions, kissed the Koran and so forth, and he was raised to be a saint by the catholic Church.

So all these people I mention are made saints by the catholic church, but their teaching go against each other.

Which one should I believe? Why does the catholic church change their teaching about how we should handle other religion, preaching war at one point ( considered as a saint, Blessed Pope Urban II) and preaching peace and love at another ( considered a saint too, St Pope John Paul II)?

 

[TK421]

Hi therese14,

I think there’s a few important things to note to help you reconcile your conflict.

1. Muslim caliphs were imperialistically expanding into Christian Byzantium through brute military force. The Popes of the 20th century didn’t condemn WW2 against fascism, and they didn’t condemn the crusades in the earlier centuries. They were supportive of them.
2. While the Church was generally supportive of the Crusades, this is not to say that every action of the Crusades was noble. This would hold for every armed conflict in history.
3. Either way, the Popes speaking here are not an infallible authority, although I think Bl Urban II was a good and noble man that labored very hard to protect his people and to bring peace and stability to the region.

 

[therese14]

Appearantly, St Bernard of Clairvaux preached the Second Crusade

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_of_Clairvaux#Second_Crusade_.281146.E2.80.9349.29

Why are saints who are canonized by the catholic church preached different attitudes toward Moslems and Jews.

Some saints preached war, for the remissions of sins even (people at that time who joined the crusades were granted plenary indulgence). And some saints, such as St Pope John Paul II preached peace, love and respect towards Moslems and Jews.

Which saints should we listen to? It seems like through all this are human works, not God’s. Even in the canonization of saints.

 

[therese14]

I certainly choose peace, love, and respect.

But, I couldn’t get over the fact that the catholic church at one point preached the remission of sins, plenary indulgence, thus heaven, for whoever partakes in the crusades (Blessed Pope Urban II, a saint in the catholic church, canonized by Pope Leo XIII), and at one point of history, St Pope John Paul II preached love and tolerance towards the Moslems as a way to heaven. So their teachings are in conflict with one another.

Perhaps those are all human teachings, not God’s.

It should be love right from the start.

 

[Biggin]

Appearantly, St Bernard of Clairvaux preached the Second Crusade

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_of_Clairvaux#Second_Crusade_.281146.E2.80.9349.29

Why are saints who are canonized by the catholic church preached different attitudes toward Moslems and Jews.

Some saints preached war, for the remissions of sins even (people at that time who joined the crusades were granted plenary indulgence). And some saints, such as St Pope John Paul II preached peace, love and respect towards Moslems and Jews.

Which saints should we listen to? It seems like through all this are human works, not God’s. Even in the canonization of saints.

Maybe you don’t realize the fact that those that went on Crusade, done so at their own cost, which most often meant that the family fortune was gone. To put into Modern Terms, “Would you be willing to go and fight ISIS, if you had to sell everything you had to do so?”
Probably not, but the crusaders did.

 

[St_Francis]

Consider our situation today: there are Moslems who believe in livng a peaceful life, and there are Moslems who want to join ISIS. So, back then, the Moslems who were like ISIS is now were going around conquering people and killing Christian pilgrims and all that sort of thing. There were peaceful Moslems back then, but the Crusades were launched against Moslems like ISIS.

So Pope Urban started the Crusades against people like ISIS, and Pope John Paul II sad we shoudl respect Moslems who are peaceful.

 

[Biggin]

I certainly choose peace, love, and respect.

But, I couldn’t get over the fact that the catholic church at one point preached the remission of sins, plenary indulgence, thus heaven, for whoever partakes in the crusades (Blessed Pope Urban II, a saint in the catholic church, canonized by Pope Leo XIII), and at one point of history, St Pope John Paul II preached love and tolerance towards the Moslems as a way to heaven. So their teachings are in conflict with one another.

Perhaps those are all human teachings, not God’s.

It should be love right from the start.

There is really no conflict between Bl. Urban II and St JP2. That is, if you would attempt to read, and study history. There are a few 'First hand" accounts of the crusades available, and not just that of a University professor seeking tenure. Under Bl. Urban II, they fought,not because of religion, but because of barbarians overtaking Christian owned lands and communities. They really could careless of the intruders religion. And at numerous times, worked with the “moslem” Saracen sects to protect those communities.( this where the respect part of St JP2 comes into play"
The internet can be like the worlds best University for you, but it is decided by what kind of student you are, just like in real life. Do you go to learn and expand knowledge, or are you just there for the degree and to party.
I apologize for not having a list ready for you to read, as it’s been years since I studied the Crusades, but will reply with some content for you to look up and get for free, that is first hand. Some is full of dramatic imagery, but still gets the point across.
Peace.

 

[Vico]

…

Which one should I believe? Why does the catholic church change their teaching about how we should handle other religion, preaching war at one point ( considered as a saint, Blessed Pope Urban II) and preaching peace and love at another ( considered a saint too, St Pope John Paul II)?

You can believe this source from the Catholic Church, regarding Council of Clermont (November 18 to 28, 1095), Pope Urban II:

Council of Clermont, can. 2: “If anyone, moved solely by devotion to the exclusion of any desire for renown or riches, shall set out to liberate the Church of God in Jerusalem, that journey shall be accounted as satisfaction for every penance”: Mansi, SS. Conciliorum collectio 20, 816

Cited in: The Enchiridion Of Indulgences, 1968.

First Council of Lyons - 1245 A.D.

1. {47} On help for the empire of Constantinople

Though we are engaged in difficult matters and distracted by manifold anxieties, yet among those things which demand our constant attention is the liberation of the empire of Constantinople. This we desire with our whole heart, this is ever the object of our thoughts. Yet though the apostolic see has eagerly sought a remedy on its behalf by earnest endeavour and many forms of assistance, though for long Catholics have striven by grievous toils, by burdensome expense, by care, sweat, tears and bloodshed, yet the hand that extended such aid could not wholly, hindered by sin, snatch the empire from the yoke of the enemy. Thus not without cause we are troubled with grief. But because the body of the church would be shamefully deformed by the lack of a loved member, namely the aforesaid empire, and be sadly weakened and suffer loss; and because it could rightly be assigned to our sloth and that of the church, if it were deprived of the support of the faithful, and left to be freely oppressed by its enemies; we firmly propose to come to the help of the empire with swift and effective aid. Thus at the same time as the church eagerly rises to its assistance and stretches out the hand of defence, the empire can be saved from the dominion of its foes, and be brought back by the Lord’s guidance to the unity of that same body, and may feel after the crushing hammer of its enemies the consoling hand of the church its mother, and after the blindness of error regain its sight by the possession of the catholic faith. It is the more fitting that prelates of churches and other ecclesiastics should be watchful and diligent for its liberation, and bestow their help and assistance, the more they are bound to work for the increase of the faith and of ecclesiastical liberty, which could chiefly come about from the liberation of the empire; and especially because while the empire is helped, assistance is consequently rendered to the holy Land.

Indeed, so that the help to the empire may be speedy and useful, we decree, with the general approval of the council, that half of all incomes of dignities parsonages and ecclesiastical prebends, and of other benefices of ecclesiastics who do not personally reside in them for at least six months, whether they hold one or more, shall be assigned in full for three years to the help of the said empire, having been collected by those designated by the apostolic see. Those are exempt who are employed in our service or in that of our brother cardinals and of their prelates, those who are on pilgrimages or in schools, or engaged in the business of their own churches at their direction, and those who have or will take up the badge of the cross for the aid of the holy Land or who will set out in person to the help of the said empire; but if any of these, apart from the crusaders and those setting out, receive from ecclesiastical revenues more than a hundred silver marks, they should pay a third part of the remainder in each of the three years. This is to be observed notwithstanding any customs or statutes of churches to the contrary, or any indulgences granted by the apostolic see to these churches or persons, confirmed by oath or any other means. And if by chance in this matter any shall knowingly be guilty of any deceit, they shall incur the sentence of excommunication.

We ourselves, from the revenues of the church of Rome, after first deducting a tenth from them to be assigned to the aid of the holy Land, will assign a tenth part in full for the support of the said empire. Further, when help is given to the empire, assistance is given in a very particular way and directed to the recovery of the holy Land, while we are striving for the liberation of the empire itself. Thus trusting in the mercy of almighty God and the authority of his blessed apostles Peter and Paul, from the power of binding and loosing which he conferred upon us though unworthy, we grant pardon of their sins to all those who come to the help of the said empire, and we desire they may enjoy that privilege and immunity which is granted to those who come to the help of the holy Land.

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum13.htm#On help for the empire of Constantinople

 

[JerryZ]

Maybe you don’t realize the fact that those that went on Crusade, done so at their own cost, which most often meant that the family fortune was gone. To put into Modern Terms, “Would you be willing to go and fight ISIS, if you had to sell everything you had to do so?”
Probably not, but the crusaders did.

So to add to your very perspicacious comment, to go on a crusade was not an endeavour for the light hearted, Roads were treacherous, many volunteers came as far away as Britain for them the journey could take 4 years :bigyikes: Just to get there THEN there would be the real fight, which does not mean that during the journey there would not be skirmishes.

So what war the likelihood to come back alive from a crusade? I would posit that it MUST have been quite small. Otherwise the Pope would NOT have promised a plenary indulgence and the pardon of the sins if one participated in it.

So basically brace yourself to die in order to protect the Holy Land from the aggressors who had initiated this war on Christianity.
Another very important point to always always remember about this, the Muslims did
not convert people with ideas and a better way of life. Nope either you convert or they behead you.

Very civil, by the way it looks like this is what some of them are dishing out today.

This link has the story of how the Muslims treated their captives:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_Otranto

Otranto is in Italy by the way.

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