I don't get sola scriptura

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Perhaps it will be helpful to point out that every group, Catholic, Orthodox, various Protestants, have a base-line for what has to be believed, and what may be believed.

In the Catholic Church, there are lots of things one has to believe, but many others one may have a variety of opinions on. For example, personal revelations, or evolution. No one thinks it is a sign of a Problem that one Catholic believes the Fatima revelations, and another doesn’t.

Well, in Protestantism it is the same, but what is considered essential is usually much smaller. So the differences on many issues, although people have a view on what is the best answer, are seen as non-essential.

Within that structure, the fact that there are many beliefs about some issues simply isn’t seen as an issue, just as it isn’t a problem that one Catholic Church uses the TLM, and another has a really popular LifeTeen Mass.
OK, this explanation is the most helpful to me. But how is it determined what must be believed? And why do so many Protestants insist that Catholics are wrong? Don’t Catholic beliefs, according to what you’re saying, fall into the category of what doesn’t matter?
I dont get it either. The more I’ve thought about it the less sense it makes to me. And I notice that really no one really lives by it in a strict sense.
Yes, this is my point exactly.
I might turn the question around and ask, for a Catholic what happens if you disagree on the meaning of some passage of scripture and the church’s official teaching? If you truly believe in a different understanding what transpires in your mind regarding that teaching if you are to believe the teachings of the church? How does one conform their beliefs, assuming they have an honest intention to do so, if they truly believe something else?
You’ll have to ask a cafeteria Catholic about that one. 🙂 Those of us who are faithful accept that the Church is not a salad bar; we can’t just pick and choose which beliefs to accept, even if some are personally inconvenient. That would be going against God, just as violating an explicit rule in the Bible would be for a Protestant.

For me, the few times it has come up, I would work on seeing it from the Church’s perspective, and I often found that this made more sense than what I had thought before. If I still had a hard time, I would talk to my priest about it, and he would either explain it to me (and that explanation often made a lot of sense) or tell me that I was misunderstanding the actual teaching.
 
OK, this explanation is the most helpful to me. But how is it determined what must be believed? And why do so many Protestants insist that Catholics are wrong? Don’t Catholic beliefs, according to what you’re saying, fall into the category of what doesn’t matter?
Sure, a lot of them do. But many Protestant groups would be perfectly happy for Catholics to attend and coimmunicate in their churches.
You’ll have to ask a cafeteria Catholic about that one. 🙂 Those of us who are faithful accept that the Church is not a salad bar; we can’t just pick and choose which beliefs to accept, even if some are personally inconvenient. That would be going against God, just as violating an explicit rule in the Bible would be for a Protestant.
For me, the few times it has come up, I would work on seeing it from the Church’s perspective, and I often found that this made more sense than what I had thought before. If I still had a hard time, I would talk to my priest about it, and he would either explain it to me (and that explanation often made a lot of sense) or tell me that I was misunderstanding the actual teaching.
I think you may be misunderstanding the question here. I think the poster is asking - if the Catholic Tradition consists of the documents outlining the teaching of the Magesterium, the EFC texts, the Ecumenical Counsels decisions - what do you do if there is disagreement within the Church over what those things mean?
 
Protestants: If Scripture alone is sufficient, then what do you do with different interpretations of individual verses and passages?
First of all we need to get something straight. “Scripture alone” is not sufficient for anything. SS for me is defined as ALL the information that we need to show us that Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world and purchased our salvation for us by His spilt blood is contained in scripture.
If Person A and Person B differ in their interpretation, how is it decided who is right? Do you resort to an outside authority, such as a pastor or a Bible scholar? If so, doesn’t that run contrary to sola scriptura? Resorting to an outside authority is exactly what we Catholics do–and we agree on who that authority is.
The fact that some may need to seek help in understanding does not in any way alter the fact that ALL the information is there.
 
I think you may be misunderstanding the question here. I think the poster is asking - if the Catholic Tradition consists of the documents outlining the teaching of the Magesterium, the EFC texts, the Ecumenical Counsels decisions - what do you do if there is disagreement within the Church over what those things mean?
Doesn’t the Pope have the final say in the matter?
The fact that some may need to seek help in understanding does not in any way alter the fact that ALL the information is there.
But who decides what that information is? Text is meaningless without someone to read and understand it.
 
Doesn’t the Pope have the final say in the matter?
If you stick around CAF, you will see there is quite a lot of debate about just what the Pope is saying on a number of issues, even when everyone is reading the same documents.

Here is the problem: the explanations and directives given to people by the Catholic Church are not always a lot more clear than what one sees in Scripture.

However, I actually don’t think this is a huge issue - I think mostly it is pretty clear what is being said now by the CC. The problem is that it is not always clearly compatible with what the Church has said in the past. How to reconcile these things is a question individual Catholics eventually have to come to some conclusion about, even if it is just following the advice of their own priest.
 
The problem with Sola Scriptura – no matter how it is defined – is that there was no Bible for the first four centuries of Christianity. Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church as our teacher. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, produced the book. The NT is based on the teaching of the Church who wrote it – not vice versa, as Protestants perceive it. ’

Not everything a Pope says or writes must be believed by all Catholics. Benedict XVI made this clear recently by emphasizing that he wrote Jesus of Nazareth as a theologian, not as Pope.

Jim Dandy
 
You’ll have to ask a cafeteria Catholic about that one. 🙂 Those of us who are faithful accept that the Church is not a salad bar; we can’t just pick and choose which beliefs to accept, even if some are personally inconvenient. That would be going against God, just as violating an explicit rule in the Bible would be for a Protestant.

For me, the few times it has come up, I would work on seeing it from the Church’s perspective, and I often found that this made more sense than what I had thought before. If I still had a hard time, I would talk to my priest about it, and he would either explain it to me (and that explanation often made a lot of sense) or tell me that I was misunderstanding the actual teaching.
Let’s say that the church says you should not smoke, it is a sin. Let’s say in your consideration of the matter you do not believe it to be a sin. Let’s say after instruction from a priest you still do not believe smoking to be a sin. If the church says you must believe smoking to be a sin, but you dont, then what is your relationship to the church? What if you honestly want to believe in what you are instructed but based on your reason and knowledge cant? Can you accept beliefs without really believing in those beliefs?
 
The problem with Sola Scriptura – no matter how it is defined – is that there was no Bible for the first four centuries of Christianity. Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church as our teacher. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, produced the book. The NT is based on the teaching of the Church who wrote it – not vice versa, as Protestants perceive it. ’
This is not entirely true. To say there was no official canon until Damasius’ canon is true, but the writings of the canon were already in use by most Christians long before that. And even Popes and Catholic theologians had criteria for canonicity–namely, apostolic source, gospel affirming character, and such–it was never a matter of “because I said so” even when the canon was first established, as continuing Catholic debate over canonicity continued until the Council of Trent. Most Protestant Bible scholars I have ever heard of consider canon to be determined based on apostolic source, universal acceptance by the very first Christians and even the Jews of Jesus’ time in the case of the OT, and gospel affirming character. To say that the Bible comes from the Roman Catholic Church is a problematic statement.

The canon is similar because the criteria for determination of Canon were valid (at least Jerome’s first canon–the Deuterocanonical books are of course a matter of debate for Protestants).
 
But who decides what that information is? Text is meaningless without someone to read and understand it.
John3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here’s an example. This is in the bible. Which is the inspired word of God. I can read it and through the power of the Holy Spirit understand that this is talking about Jesus.
 
I dont get it either. The more I’ve thought about it the less sense it makes to me. And I notice that really no one really lives by it in a strict sense. Of course the idea really needs to be defined. The term sola scriptura itself, like many, can represent an idea that is very complex. The term might mean different things to different people. But the typical quick explanation of the term makes no sense to me.

I might turn the question around and ask, for a Catholic what happens if you disagree on the meaning of some passage of scripture and the church’s official teaching? If you truly believe in a different understanding what transpires in your mind regarding that teaching if you are to believe the teachings of the church? How does one conform their beliefs, assuming they have an honest intention to do so, if they truly believe something else?
We are not free to believe what we want to believe. The Church is to lead the people of God in Truth. That is why Jesus built a Church so we can conform to teh teachings of Jesus. the Laws of the Church are the Laws of God therefore we must believe and obey. Just because someone refuse to believe the Truth, it doesnt mean it is not True. Remember that the days of Jesus many did not believe Him, yet He spoke the Truth. and it remain the Truth to this day.

Just like Israel received the laws of God that lead this one people so it is with the Church.
 
Also, in response to patricius, I think at leastt many if not most intelligent Sola Scriptura adherents would agree that it’s not about whether the notion itself is derived from scripture, because clearly it is not. It is about sticking to the faith which was handed down to us by the prophets and apostles in their writings and not letting ourselves become destracted from that course. Of course, we can argue on forever as to whether “them Protestants” or Catholics are closer to that faith, but this is the idea at least
okay so we agree that Sola Scriptura is not derived from Scripture apparently.

as to the faith that was handed idown to us by the prophtes and apostles in their writings… right.

both Catholics and Protestants believe they are doing that and that the other side has introduced human oral traditions

Protestants apparently believed this one was done very early, as the early Church testifies so much to the Catholic distinctives. Catholics believe that Protestants inserted many conflicting oral traditions at the Reformation

one issue that comes up is the mystical sense of Scripture. the Lutheran oral tradition as I recall is that the mystical sense is subjective. while the fathers relied very much on the mystical sense.

this issue comes up frequently in discussions but is often ignored in principle, although Protestants often implicitly appeal to it. as in the case of Rev 22:18,19 e.g “if anyone adds to the words of this book”, which clearly is referring literally to the book of Revelation itself

so again it’s not really clear to me that Sola Scriptura has any objective meaning in practice, since things are routinely asserted which go beyond the literal sense of Scripture and cannot be shown logically from Scripture

the idea of simply having recourse to logic is very questionable part of Sola Scriptura also–since, without a Magisterium, one is simply left in theory with a logical argument/debate about the definitions of words

yet one rarely sees such logical excercise from Sola Scriptura groups anyway

Jn 6 is a good example. Lutherans accept these words but other Protestants usually deny the literal sense thoroughly without any linguistic basis

I think Lutheranism does this with the “justification by faith alone” oral tradition which the fathers like Augustine did not believe and which explicitly contradicts the literal sense of James 2:21, 22,23,24,
.
 
I think maybe a question for these “Bible Believers” (who are we really talking about here, anyways? Can we name a group, a person, some sort of example?) ***<–We’re talking about those who make a point of self identifying as Bible Believing Christians and then ignore the part of the Bible which calls for traditions.***is how far do we allow tradition to dictate our worship and belief and why? <—Go back and read the post I was responding to. It was clear that the poster, who is from a “Bible believing Church” was not allowing ANY appeal to tradition, despite the fact that the Bible clearly calls for what he rejects. So it was not a matter of “how far” do we allow tradition. It was a case of rejecting ANY tradition. (that is, what are the justifying criteria for practice of a given “tradition”)

Also, whose words should we be listening to according to this quote? Looking at it in context, it strikes me that a valid interpretation might consist of the “us” signifying the apostles themselves and Jesus Christ. <—What quote? 2Thessalonians 2:15? What "us"? “Tradition” then becomes a question of the validity of apostolic succession, which is beyond the purposes of this thread.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe in the importance of liturgy and sacraments and many of the practices of the early church, but it is a fallacy to think that just because the Bible says we should hold to the importance of tradition, this quote therefore justifies any particular traditions handed down from any particular entity other than the apostles and in particular, Paul. So the question is: what does this quote actually command us to do or believe in a concrete, particular sense? Which particular traditions is it referring to?
You DO understand that before ANY Scripture was written down it existed AS tradition, right?🙂
 
I was referring to the first person plural pronoun indicated by the word “our”.
You DO understand that before ANY Scripture was written down it existed AS tradition, right?🙂
Yep, tradition which I have faith was handed down by apostles themselves and written down. Therein lies the validity. Do your question and your capital letters have a point aside from taking an opportunity to come off as patronizing?
 
I was referring to the first person plural pronoun indicated by the word “our”.

Yep, tradition which I have faith was handed down by apostles themselves and written down. Therein lies the validity. Do your question and your capital letters have a point aside from taking an opportunity to come off as patronizing?
That sounds like a tradition that wasn’t written down.

God bless
 
We are not free to believe what we want to believe. The Church is to lead the people of God in Truth. That is why Jesus built a Church so we can conform to teh teachings of Jesus. the Laws of the Church are the Laws of God therefore we must believe and obey. Just because someone refuse to believe the Truth, it doesnt mean it is not True. Remember that the days of Jesus many did not believe Him, yet He spoke the Truth. and it remain the Truth to this day.
I dont think you get my question. I’m not talking about the truth of something. I’m talking about what you believe to be true. The church itself agrees that truth is independent of belief. I’m asking what happens when you cant honestly believe in something the church teaches. It may well be true what the church teaches. But if you dont believe it to be true what then?

Peter did not believe that he would deny the Lord three times. And yet he did. I’m trying to understand how Catholics reconcile belief with teaching. It is one thing to say that you must believe certain things but it is another to believe that everyone actually fully believes those things. If St. Peter can not believe Christ then what of the average layman? It seems some folks take a harsher stand than even our Lord who most certainly forgave Peter for not only denying Him but denying He would deny Him, or not believing.
 
This is not entirely true. To say there was no official canon until Damasius’ canon is true, but the writings of the canon were already in use by most Christians long before that.
My post was entirely true. The writings that became the canon – plus many others – were read aloud during the Church’s liturgy (now called “Mass”) in the early centuries of Christianity. No one knew with certainty which were Scripture and which were not. Some were more certain than others. The canon was defined precisely to declare officially which writings were “Scripture,” and thus should be read at Mass, and which were not, and therefore should be excluded.

From the Council of Rome, A.D. 382: “Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun.” (The list of canonical writings follows.) Source: Denzinger

From the Council of Carthage III, A.D. 397: "[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: (the list follows). Source: Denzinger

The canon was still in flux throughout the fourth century. Eusebius of Caesaria, in his History of the Church (A.D. 324) reported that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Thirteen of Paul’s Epistles, 1 Peter, 1 John and 1 Clement were “Recognized.” Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were “Disputed.” (He also had a “Rejected” category which is not relevant here.) By the end of the fourth century, all the “Recognized” writings – except 1 Clement – and all the “Disputed” books were accepted into the canon. Clement, which had been considered “Scripture,” didn’t make the cut.

Codex Sinaiticus, from the mid-fourth century, found in 1844, contains the entire Catholic OT and the NT – including the Epistle of Barnabas and part of the Shepherd of Hermas, which obviously were considered Scripture at the time this Codex was written.
And even Popes and Catholic theologians had criteria for canonicity–namely, apostolic source, gospel affirming character, and such–it was never a matter of “because I said so” even when the canon was first established, as continuing Catholic debate over canonicity continued until the Council of Trent.
The canon of the Catholic Church has never changed since it was defined by the Council of Rome. Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate into Latin what became known as the Vulgate (the common Bible). The canon of the Vulgate was based on the canon established by the Council of Rome. Trent merely affirmed officially and infallibly what the previous local councils had decreed and Popes Damasus I, Innocent I. and Boniface, among others, had approved – it affirmed the canon of the ancient Vulgate.
Most Protestant Bible scholars I have ever heard of consider canon to be determined based on apostolic source, universal acceptance by the very first Christians and even the Jews of Jesus’ time in the case of the OT, and gospel affirming character. To say that the Bible comes from the Roman Catholic Church is a problematic statement.
I believe yours to be the “problematic statement.”

If that were so, Protestant Bible scholars would accept the Catholic canon. When the Church was nearly 400 years old, she selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. At the time time, in the same councils, she canonized 46 writings from the Greek Septuagint which she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. Her entire collection of Sacred Scripture, she named Tá Biblia, the Little Books, in English “the Bible.”
The canon is similar because the criteria for determination of Canon were valid (at least Jerome’s first canon–the Deuterocanonical books are of course a matter of debate for Protestants).
St. Jerome’s first “canon” was the Vulgate. Protestants debate the so-called Deuterocanonical books (a term applied to the disputed writings in the 16th century). But they were accepted by the Jews continuing into the first Christian century, Jesus, the Apostles, the sacred writers of the NT, the early Christians, and they were canonized by the Catholic Church. They are as just as canonical as Isaiah and Matthew and stand on the same authority.

An infallible effect (the Scriptures) requires an infallible cause (the Catholic Church).

Jim Dandy
 
I was referring to the first person plural pronoun indicated by the word “our”. <— REALLY??..you were REFERRING to one word by QUOTING another word? Do you do that a lot? Why not just call the word what is was written as?😃

Yep, tradition which I have faith was handed down by apostles themselves and written down. Therein lies the validity. <— REALLY?!..so any Christian tradition not handed down by the apostles, AND written down, AND which YOU don’t have faith in, is invalid? Do your question and your capital letters have a point aside from taking an opportunity to come off as patronizing?
Paul wasn’t trying to indicate “us” by saying “our” anyway…where in the world are you getting that from?
 
Let’s say that the church says you should not smoke, it is a sin. Let’s say in your consideration of the matter you do not believe it to be a sin. Let’s say after instruction from a priest you still do not believe smoking to be a sin. If the church says you must believe smoking to be a sin, but you dont, then what is your relationship to the church? What if you honestly want to believe in what you are instructed but based on your reason and knowledge cant? Can you accept beliefs without really believing in those beliefs?
Yes, because I accept that God knows best. If I didn’t think smoking was a sin, but the Church did, then it would mean that God thinks smoking is a sin. I don’t always understand His reasons, but I accept His will. Are you saying you think it’s OK to question God’s will? If so, I think His answer at the end of the book of Job is a good rebuttal.
 
Yes, because I accept that God knows best. If I didn’t think smoking was a sin, but the Church did, then it would mean that God thinks smoking is a sin. I don’t always understand His reasons, but I accept His will. Are you saying you think it’s OK to question God’s will? If so, I think His answer at the end of the book of Job is a good rebuttal.
your idea is that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is true? that is my idea at any rate

that is the principle which Sola Scriptura adherents reject, although it is very Biblical.

*Acts
Chapter 15
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1 ." 2
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Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others **should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. **3



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3** The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter**.
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4 After much debate had taken place, Rock (Peter) got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.



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The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.
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6 After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me.
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**Symeon 7 has described **how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.


**
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Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, **25

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’It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,
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them. *
 
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