I don't like being human --- is this despair/despondence?

[MTarcisius]

Surely we must loath things like disease, pain and suffering that these bodies often forces upon us…

Many people would recommend thanking God for things like disease, pain and suffering. I think that you can be thankful for something that you find loathsome…

 

[MTarcisius]

What about Heaven?

Haha seriously! No Catholic teaching suggests that death is or offers nothing.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Many people would recommend thanking God for things like disease, pain and suffering. I think that you can be thankful for something that you find loathsome…

Maybe I should be more thankful for this body, but as of now, I’m extremely thankful for the spiritual only! I see this wretched body as a means to an end. It’s Heaven that I’m thankful for!

 

[MTarcisius]

Maybe I should be more thankful for this body, but as of now, I’m extremely thankful for the spiritual only! I see this wretched body as a means to an end. It’s Heaven that I’m thankful for!

Do you know much about the “Resurection of the Body”?

 

[pianistclare]

A body that experiences pain, suffering and death (among a host of other negative things), is loathsome!

The illness is loathsome. The person is not.
How would you like it if someone called you loathsome?
It would harm your dignity, don’t you think?
You are a child of God. People can DO loathsome things, can commit loathsome crimes, and can suffer loathsome illness. But they are still children of God.
Who are the loathsome, in your opinion?
Because people are made up of the body.
Which people are loathsome?

 

[St_Redemption]

A body that experiences pain, suffering and death (among a host of other negative things), is loathsome!

Our bodies are a Holy Temple of the Holy Spirit. Or they are supposed to be. God created matter and us in His image. I believe that your form of thinking can lead to depression and feelings of hopelessness etc. I do sympathize with some of what you are saying in that the body can feel like a prison of pain, temptation, etc. But that is not all that they are. The body is good, and Christ once took our form.

 

[pianistclare]

We’re supposed to “do God’s will”.

And that’s not sinning. OK, got it.

But it’s impossible to not sin. That moment of judgment. That moment of thinking I’m better or more talented than someone else. And countless other things that run through the mind ceaselessly.

I don’t want that to happen. And I know it’s evil.

So why can’t I program myself to not sin?

Human nature is so weak and vulnerable.

Angels are higher beings. I just don’t get why God made us.

Angels technically don’t have a body (but somehow have eyes and wings, not sure how that works out). Is that a negative…?

Angels do have free will.
Did you know that angels don’t receive grace through sacraments? They don’t receive Eucharist.
We can do that. That’s one of the gifts that we have.
Don’t compare yourself to an angel.,They are a totally different species of being.
People don’t HAVE to sin. We tend to sin, but we don’t have to,.
Pray for strength to resist it. Ask your guardian angel to help you. That’s their job!
Pick a Saint that inspires you and make a friend of them.
The Catholic faith is rich in coping skills, mechanisms for holiness and inspiration from countless saints who overcame tough times…some much tougher than you and I will ever know.
Read up maybe on some of the 20th century saints. I think you will find them easier perhaps to relate to. There are many good books, but all of it is available free online.
Google.
Yo gooleo
Tu googleas
Nosotros gooleamos.
Peace, friend.

 

[revert_jen]

This discussion on “loathsome” bodies is interesting. Most the replies have been accurate regarding how humans are supposed to love our gifts from God (including our lives and bodies). However, I find it interesting that nobody has provided a reason for loving our bodies with a source (although someone did vaguely reference St. Iraneus’ teachings).

OK, you asked.
CCC #362:

The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

CCC #364:

The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:
Gaudium et Spes 14 § 1:

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

CCC #1004:

In expectation of that day, the believer’s body and soul already participate in the dignity of belonging to Christ. This dignity entails the demand that he should treat with respect his own body, but also the body of every other person, especially the suffering:
1 Cor 6:13-15:

The body [is meant] for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? . . . . You are not your own; . . . . So glorify God in your body.

To the thread in general, not necessarily to MTarcisius:

God decided to create an order of beings that consist of a joining of the spiritual and the physical into a single nature. I don’t feel comfortable saying that He shouldn’t have done so, or that part of the joined nature is bad.

I can show God my love more because my body is imperfect. For example, I can kneel in prayer even though I have a bad knee and offer my pain to Christ in reparation for my sins.

I can sing to God with my body, and for me that is a great joy that I don’t experience when I sing only in my mind. My body and soul join together to praise God. (I know it isn’t the same for everyone, but I can only say about me.)

With my body, I can see the glory of God’s creation, smell a flower on a gentle breeze, hear the song of birds, feel the hug of a friend or family member.

Death is only a worthwhile sacrifice for God (meaning martyrdom) because life before death is good. And life before death requires a body.

To the OP:

You will never be absolutely perfect in this life. But there is joy in conquering any temptation to sin. If you start there–for example, “today I was tempted to lust and I controlled myself so that I did not welcome the lustful thought and sent it away” or “today I thought about how good I am at (whatever), but then I remembered that my talents came from God and turned the thought of pride into a thought of gratitude”–you will find it a lot easier to welcome this life that God has given you, and the grace that He sends so you can have those small victories.

Fleeting thoughts that go through your mind are not sins. The sin is in welcoming, accepting, and/or dwelling on the thoughts.

I would recommend that, if there is an Adoration chapel somewhere around you, you should take your pain to Christ in the Eucharist. Don’t just go once and then if it doesn’t “work” give up. It will take a few times to get there. And keep going to Confession.

Think of it as building something–building yourself. The important thing isn’t to be perfect all at once, but to keep getting better. God knows, much better than you do in fact , what you can and cannot do. Do your best in this life, and God will see that you become perfect afterward.

I don’t know if what I’ve said helps, but I will pray for you as well.

–Jen

 

[MTarcisius]

OK, you asked.

Haha actually I did not ask anything. However, I really do appreciate your references to the catechism. They are very relevant to this discussion.

You did not comment on how Luke 14:26 tells Catholics to hate life itself. Can someone “honor” something they hate? Remember that “honor” is an action but “hate” is a feeling. Additionally, can someone “respect” something that they hate? As the Catechism shows we must “respect” and “honor” our bodies no matter what we are feeling. Furthermore, stating that you “loathe” something is not showing respect for that thing. This would mean that we must not state that we loathe our bodies. The big contradiction is how can Catholics hate “even life itself” (Luke 14:26) while the catechism says he “may not despise his bodily life.” (CCC 364)?
When Jesus says to hate life itself, He is suggesting a strong emotional detachment. This would apply to all aspects of the physical world including our bodies. Unfortunately, the difference between detachment, apathy and loathing can be very fine and confusing.

The spiritual life can be very complex and I am genuinely curious if people understand what I am getting at.

To the thread in general, not necessarily to MTarcisius:

God decided to create an order of beings that consist of a joining of the spiritual and the physical into a single nature. I don’t feel comfortable saying that He shouldn’t have done so, or that part of the joined nature is bad.

I can show God my love more because my body is imperfect. For example, I can kneel in prayer even though I have a bad knee and offer my pain to Christ in reparation for my sins.

I can sing to God with my body, and for me that is a great joy that I don’t experience when I sing only in my mind. My body and soul join together to praise God. (I know it isn’t the same for everyone, but I can only say about me.)

With my body, I can see the glory of God’s creation, smell a flower on a gentle breeze, hear the song of birds, feel the hug of a friend or family member.

Death is only a worthwhile sacrifice for God (meaning martyrdom) because life before death is good. And life before death requires a body.

–Jen

Yes this is awesome! We must use the gifts we are given (including the body) to grow closer to God.

 

[revert_jen]

You did not comment on how Luke 14:26 tells Catholics to hate life itself. Can someone “honor” something they hate? Remember that “honor” is an action but “hate” is a feeling. Additionally, can someone “respect” something that they hate? As the Catechism shows we must “respect” and “honor” our bodies no matter what we are feeling.

Well, if you are going to take Luke 14:26 all by itself, you have a bigger problem than the question of the body. Here is the quote:
Lk 14:26 (RSV):

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Well, the ten commandments says:
Deut 5:16 (RSV):

Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land thich the LORD your God gives you.

The thing is, the quote from Luke does not mean you cannot follow Jesus unless you break the commandment to honor your father and mother. Although it would be possible to show honor to someone while hating them, I’m not sure that it would really be honoring them, and anyway that isn’t the way around the apparent contradiction. Jesus it talking about the cost of discipleship, not making a general order. If any of the things in Lk 14:26 keeps you from following Christ, you must let it go. You must be willing to renounce any of those things in order to follow Christ. He mentions them because they are good, but He is better. You must not sacrifice the greater good for the lesser.

At least that is my understanding. I believe it is the general way that the Church undersstands that passage as well, since the Ignatius Study Bible says the following about this passage:

hate: An idiomatic term meaning “to love less” (Gen 29:31-33; Mal 1:2-3). Not even the sacredness of family loyalty should outweigh our commitment to Christ, since we must be willing to abandon even close relationships to follow him. (Mt 10:37) (CCC 1618, 2544)

The one reference above, in Genesis, is this:
Gen 29:30-31:

So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years. When the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb; but Rachel was barren.

You can see that it is applicable. I think it makes the whole thing easier to understand.

–Jen

 

[Robert_Sock]

The illness is loathsome. The person is not.
How would you like it if someone called you loathsome?
It would harm your dignity, don’t you think?
You are a child of God. People can DO loathsome things, can commit loathsome crimes, and can suffer loathsome illness. But they are still children of God.
Who are the loathsome, in your opinion?
Because people are made up of the body.
Which people are loathsome?

I would NEVER call a person loathsome as you are trying to pin on me. If dreadful disease is loathsome, why not the medium (the body) through which the disease becomes manifest?

 

[Robert_Sock]

The body is not loathsome; the sin which brought about that state is what’s loathsome. Our bodies are broken shells of what they should be, but they are still made in the image and likeness of God, which Christ took on to bring salvation to all of us. There is no way you should consider the human body, which God himself took on with pain, suffering, death and all, loathsome.

If it’s good enough for God to take part in it, then it should be good enough for everyone.

That’s not to say it’s perfect, or that what’s coming isn’t infinitely better, but to conclude that they are loathsome simply because we have something better to look forward to is errant and logically incoherent.

Why would God allow us a new glorified body if the ones we have now were not somehow inadequate? To infer that our current bodies are already glorious in that we are made in the image and likeness of God is a serious error.

 

[revert_jen]

Why would God allow us a new glorified body if the ones we have now were not somehow inadequate? To infer that our current bodies are already glorious in that we are made in the image and likeness of God is a serious error.

There is a long way between loathsome and inadequate or loathsome and non-glorious. And that we are made in the image of God is from the Bible (Gen 1:26) and so is hardly a theological innovation.

ProdglArchitect (in a very good post, BTW) did not in any way say that our current bodies are glorious. Is it possible you quoted the wrong post by accident? Because you had already responded to the exact same post in a different manner:

It’s good enough for me too! It’s our life in these lowly bodies that will enable us to enter Heaven. Everything is cool! Surely we must loath things like disease, pain and suffering that these bodies often forces upon us…

And anyway, if the body itself is loathsome, in what way can we say that disease is bad, since it harms the body? Disease is bad because it harms something good (not glorious or perfect, just good), i.e. the body. Diease is something that happens to the body, not something the body somehow chooses to force upon us. The body is part of us.

To the OP, just to try and move the thread back in the direction of the rails, another thought has occured to me. You did not decide to come into existence. God decided for you to come into existence. God can see the good in you (and “you” consists of both body and spirit) that possibly you cannot see. But God is all-knowing and all-wise, so I’ll take His judgement over yours any day. He will let you choose to turn away from Him but clearly you don’t want to, so He will always be helping you to be your best self.

–Jen

 

[GEddie]

I would NEVER call a person loathsome as you are trying to pin on me. If dreadful disease is loathsome, why not the medium (the body) through which the disease becomes manifest?

Because the body is the person, as much as the mind/soul.

The mind and soul make someone who they are, but without the human body, there’d be nobody at all!

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Why would God allow us a new glorified body if the ones we have now were not somehow inadequate? To infer that our current bodies are already glorious in that we are made in the image and likeness of God is a serious error.

To paraphrase Saint Paul, inadequately, our human body is the “seed” of the everlasting body.

Seeds are in no way glorious; their function is to go into the earth and be consumed; but without the seed, the fully-developed life is not possible.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

Because the body is the person, as much as the mind/soul.

The mind and soul make someone who they are, but without the human body, there’d be nobody at all!

ICXC NIKA

The person transcends the body. When you see a person suffering from cancer it easy to find these bodies loathsome, but NEVER the person. The person may consist of body and soul, but it’s through the flesh that evil flows.

As St Paul states, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. This is another reason we should see these bodies as being loathsome.

 

[pianistclare]

I would NEVER call a person loathsome as you are trying to pin on me. If dreadful disease is loathsome, why not the medium (the body) through which the disease becomes manifest?

A person “lives” in his body.
You said the body was loathsome.
We cannot separate the 2 in this life, can we?
Now you are saying the disease is loathsome.
Which is it? If a person gets a cancerous mole, the body is not loathsome. The mole can be removed and the body is still healthy. If one loses a leg, that does not make the rest of the body useless.

 

[pianistclare]

 

[MTarcisius]

Well, if you are going to take Luke 14:26 all by itself, you have a bigger problem than the question of the body. Here is the quote:

I NEVER said to take this passage all by itself. That is why I said

This passage has to be incorporated into our lives while still loving our neighbors and expressing Christian Charity.

The passage is very simple if taken by itself, but it is complex when it is taken in context of the whole of Catholicism.

Well, the ten commandments says:

The thing is, the quote from Luke does not mean you cannot follow Jesus unless you break the commandment to honor your father and mother. Although it would be possible to show honor to someone while hating them, I’m not sure that it would really be honoring them, and anyway that isn’t the way around the apparent contradiction. Jesus it talking about the cost of discipleship, not making a general order. If any of the things in Lk 14:26 keeps you from following Christ, you must let it go. You must be willing to renounce any of those things in order to follow Christ. He mentions them because they are good, but He is better. You must not sacrifice the greater good for the lesser.

At least that is my understanding. I believe it is the general way that the Church undersstands that passage as well, since the Ignatius Study Bible says the following about this passage:

The one reference above, in Genesis, is this:

You can see that it is applicable. I think it makes the whole thing easier to understand.

–Jen

I think you understand what I have been saying, but you definitely seem to understand the concept that I have been getting at, that hatred (in relation to Luke 14:26) is more accurately described as a kind of detachment (or renouncement).

The point is that the similarity between detachment and loathing makes identifying despondence difficult. Fleeting feelings of loathing can emerge from a life of detachment, and this is natural (but not necessarily good). A true and genuine long-lasting self-loathing however is most likely despondence, and thus bad.

 

[Robert_Sock]

FACT: Christ suffered and died as a result of His human nature. Saying that Christ’s nature was defined by His body seems suspicious to me in that His person was fully spirit, as experienced from within His body. This is where our disagreement may be. Like with Christ, our personhood is 100% spirit, as experienced through these lowly bodies.