I don't see how I can believe in the Church anymore

[therese1998]

That’s an awesome resource, thank you!

 

[John_Martin]

At the very least I can say that I never moderated my belief in the rightness of the Church’s claims about sexual immorality. But I never gained the ability to resist.

Look at the definition of “sin” in the original Biblical languages = “Missing the Mark”
When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more,” he was NOT telling her, “Go and run away from every possibly sinful situation that you see.”
He was saying, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not miss the mark again.”

The woman went.
Where did she go?
She went looking for the mark of purity and did those things, hitting that mark everywhere she saw it.
She did not go in trepidation asking “Is this, is that, impure? Do I have to avoid this and that?”.

She went away LOOKING AT THE MARK. Prior to this she was not looking at the mark, and missing it.

You are trying to avoid things. But your command is to look at what is good and right and true and think on these things. Positive movement rather than always looking at what you are trying to avoid.
You will not miss the mark if you always keep it before your sight and aim at it.
You will miss it if you are not looking at it but only looking at a thing you are avoiding (because you are not looking where you are going when you are backing up).

This is why the priest gives us a Penance for doing after leaving the confessional - he is seeking to focus our sight on a good target of activity - if the priest tells you to do a Hail Mary and an Our Father (two acts of faith), think about them as you are praying, and maybe do ten of each instead of one. That is practice at seeing and doing something good and right and true, and all the while, without trying, you are not missing the mark (not sinning).

John Martin

 

[guanophore]

I specifically asked the Jesuits in my country, and they told me that while they run a 12 step course for addicts, they don’t do it for those suffering from impurity.

It takes a bit of translating, but you just plug your own addiction into the places where they talk about substances. You have a different “substance” or process, but the dynamics are all the same, and the recovery process is the same.

I believe your petition is actually fully righteous though.

It is always “right” to ask for healing and wholeness. This is God’s will for us, and it is important for us to be conformed to it. Righteousness will never be denied to the faithful, but there are many different paths to the goal.

“I also don’t expect healing of this issue”…not the right attitude I think. Claim it man! Claim your healing from Jesus!

I agree with you, this is a spiritual battle, and we have to fight it to the death!

It sounds like you prayed too much, for a layperson, such that it compromised the rest of your life. It seems that you let this sin not just to be something you strive to defeat, but let it be a monster that trod you down.

While I don’t think it is possible to “pray too much”, I do agree with you that the focus needs to be on the resurrection, not the cross.

“2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:2 ).

in your prayers you are focusing too much on your sin and missing out on the love God has for you,

This is so critical. The evil one wants us to focus on the sin, because he knows we will be defeated when we do so. He wants to rob us of the love of God, which is our birthright.

 

[therese1998]

Every day thank Him for the blessings you do have.

I was given this advice ages ago as I was similarly concerned regarding my sins. I thought it sounded a little cliche, a little corny. Certainly nothing that could make even a dent in the seriousness and pervasiveness of my own sins. It’s twenty years later and I bring forward every day, in my mind and in my prayers, the blessings I have. It has made an enormous difference. I (slowly, slowly, over years not days or weeks or months) gained more mastery over those thorns of my own. They did NOT disappear, they are still thorns in my flesh and I still fall to them…way too much. But despair is where the devil wants to keep you and counting your blessings every day has very much been an antidote to that for me. Hope it helps.

 

[edwest]

Thank you, very much.

 

[njlisa]

@leonhardprintz: Maybe you’d like to become an intercessor on the prayer forum. You can post prayer requests for yourself and/or pray for others. Being on the prayer board has helped with my problems. And I can help others. You can pop in wherever you wish.

God bless you and I look forward to seeing you there.

 

[beckymozart]

Your struggles have my utmost sympathy. We all struggle with purity, but there seems to be a certain pathology (sorry if that term seems harsh) that strikes a persons attracted to members of the same sex. My gay loved ones have similar struggles. Are you living in Denmark? The general anti-Christian atmosphere can really drag down your resolve. I visited a relative in England this summer, and the secularism was palpable and really dragged me down. I wish you had a Courage chapter near you so you could have some comradery in your struggles. Two gay men with a strong online presence that I have enjoyed (I’m a single, heterosexual woman) are Terry Nelson at Abbey Roads and Joey Prever at Gay Catholic Blog. I think they have e-mail addresses where you can contact them directly. Joey sounds like he has fallen off the wagon lately. Maybe you guys can commiserate together. Please be gentle with yourself. I’ll keep you in my heart. Love to you, my fellow Catholic!

 

[hazcompat]

A clear rule for self-control handed down by the Fathers is this: stop eating while still hungry and do not continue until you are satisfied. When the Apostle said, ‘Make no provision to fulfill the desires of the flesh’ (Rom. 13:14), he was not forbidding us to provide for the needs of life; he was warning us against self-indulgence. Moreover, by itself abstinence from food does not contribute to perfect purity of soul unless the other virtues are active as well. Humility, for example, practiced through obedience in our work and through bodily hardship, is a great help. If we avoid avarice not only by having no money, but also by not wanting to have any, this leads us towards purity of soul. Freedom from anger, from dejection, self-esteem and pride also contributes to purity of soul in general, while self-control and fasting are especially important for bringing about that specific purity of soul which comes through restraint and moderation. No one whose stomach is full can fight mentally against the demon of unchastity. Our initial struggle therefore must be to gain control of our stomach and to bring our body into subjection not only through fasting but also through vigils, labors and spiritual reading, and through concentrating our heart on fear of Gehenna and on longing for the kingdom of heaven.

Desert Fathers?

Peace

 

[leonhardprintz]

As you should know, to commit a mortal sin you need full assent of your will. Clearly–to me at least–that’s lacking here. No full assent of the will, no mortal sin.

I contacted several spiritual advisors on this and got wildly different answers. One would say that as long as I struggled, my fallings wouldn’t be mortal sin. Another said that most of what you say are poor excuses, and we should consider each fall in impurity as if it was a mortal sin.

I conferred with Ed Feser, a famous theologian over it, and discussed it with someone who had studied the intricacies of moral theology.

As nearly as I can tell, the Church refuses to draw a line in the sand. The broadest consensus is that if you fall in impurity, you abstain from the Eucharist until confession. At best, the possible notion (and it is only considered possible) that addiction can infact lessen culpability to the point where a grave sin isn’t mortal, can only serve to keep a person in the sin in hope of their salvation.

I refrained from communion until I had confessed.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I thank you for your post hazcompat, but I refuse to take copy-pastes as actual arguments. Anything in that list I’ve tried, through a severe depression, and for years.

No results.

 

[Bon_Croix]

The CCC teaches that lust is the hardest of all sins to overcome. If you are going to confession for it, are you confessing it less frequently? You should be. It could take several years of confession to truly uproot it.

 

[leonhardprintz]

At the moment I’m not a practicing Catholic. I have some good spiritual advisors I will talk to at some point. One of them being a priest who is returning to Denmark after having studied Canon Law in Rome. I’ve been an altar server for him, and we’ve had many good conversations in the local pub.

I have no lack of comradery in the Church, and no lack of people who support me. But its not a lack of community I miss. I also have many secular friends, and whether in the Church, or not, I will always have friends.

The issue is that I was absolutely miserable as a Catholic. I prayed for healing, daily. And I didn’t get it. I only got worse, sicker, more miserable.

And the instant I stopped fighting, I stopped drowning. I got back friends I has pushed away (on the advise of a spiritual advisor no less). I got a job, and I’ve seen been promoted twice. My health returned, my apetite.

I stopped wanting to die on a daily basis.

And now I’m looking back on it and asking, why should I even give the Church a second chance? I asked Christ, through Mary, and through a litany of saints, through fasting, through acts of charity, through retreats, to heal me of something I’m reassured, over and over and over again, that is something God not only wants to give me, but will give.

I mean, people on this thread are blaming my failures on me not being bold enough to demand it of God (I was just open to it happening the way God wanted - either by my virtues becoming stronger, or by the temptation itself being lessened).

Nothing happened. Yet I love God. I never stopped believing in God. But I find a heavy amount of nausea just thinking about returning to a mindset of fasting, self-punishing, regulating thoughts, more self-punishing etc… for something which it seems isn’t really happening.

I’ve been entirely disillusioned of the Catholic Church. I guess I’m just looking for inspiration to believe in it again.

 

[leonhardprintz]

If you are going to confession for it, are you confessing it less frequently?

My spiritual advisors, on the contrary, adviced me to confess it more often. Others here have advised me to confess it weekly if possible (its not in my situation). At a convent I was advised to confess daily if possible, even if it was just thoughts.

 

[leonhardprintz]

It takes a bit of translating, but you just plug your own addiction into the places where they talk about substances.

Have you done this yourself? Gone to a Twelve Step Program for people with substance and alcohol abuse, and pretended your problem with masturbation was that?

If you have, I’m sorry for being frank, but that’s weird.

 

[Bon_Croix]

A Catholic should confess it when he willfully entertains the thoughts.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Then your post confuses me. Why should I then confess it less often?

 

[Bon_Croix]

If you have been confessing it with the right spirit of repentence, you have been receiving the grace needed to avoid the sin. In other words, you should see improvement over time. Like I said, it could take several years.

 

[leonhardprintz]

If you have been confessing it with the right spirit of repentence, you have been receiving the grace needed to avoid the sin. In other words, you should see improvement over time. Like I said, it could take several years.

I see, thank you for your words, but I only got sicker, not better and as far as I could tell I was both rependent and working and sacrificing, and cooporating in getting better.

It is something I consider though.

 

[leonhardprintz]

It makes me think of St. Paul, pleading with God to take away his thorn in the flesh.

There is broad consensus amongst exegists that St. Paul was not talking about a ‘sin of the flesh’. As far as I know St. Paul was actually a virgin. They do agree that there was something troubling him, usually suspected to be a certain antagonist, which God refused to remove.

Like most of us, it sounds like your weakness makes you shamed and frustrated, rather than being a source for glory and boasting.

…I should boast about wanking?

I apologize, I’m rather dense, but you might have to explain this a little better.

You need to [expect miracles] … This might be an error in your thinking process [not expecting to being healed of hte issue]

Miracles are extremely rare. One in a million events. To expect a miracle borders on insanity. Whenever a miracle has happened, its always an extraordinary, supererogubatory event, beyond what can possible be demanded.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I am open to God doing something. It could be my virtues growing stronger. It could be my weakness getting healed. It could be an Angel coming down from Heaven and girdling me with a golden rope like legends has it happened to St. Aquinas.

Or I could be like St. Alphonsus de Ligouri, who remained a virgin, but was never healed of the concupiscense, but grew in the other virtues through prayer and devotion.

I don’t think God is a radio station, or a computer. I don’t think of God as someone I have to feed prayers of the right sort, and from the precisely right mindstate. I’m quite convinced God, if He wants to, can and will heal me of this.

But yes, I’ve also demanded. To the point of slamming doors, and screaming at the sky (actually ceiling), and ripping out my hair.

I kept going until my life was all suffering.

And then I stopped. And the moment I stopped, and started practicing self-acceptance, including of my sexuality, and of what I am and what I do, then I got better. I stopped feeling chronically ashamed. My severe depression slowly melted away. I got a job. I increased my work hours. I got promoted twice. I began to be able to keep my apartment clean, and I regained the friends I’ve lost.

I have a hard time returning to the dark place. I have a hard time believing in the Catholic Church.

Anyone can promise something guanophore. That’s cheap. If I fail at something for three years, well… maybe I should have gone twelve. If I had failed for twelve, you would have asked me to go twenty five.

But I hit bottom floor, and honestly I don’t see why I should give the Catholic Church another chance.

If I do, whatever is asked of me, it has to be liveable.