I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

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It seems as though in our culture today, a person cannot express an opinion concerning the actions or intentions of a few without being called a bigot of the whole. Which seems to be the case with RomanCrusader and Valke2.

It is very popular today to try to shut down communication or conversation by calling someone something taboo, like racist, or bigot or anti-semite. And this is a shame, it allows only a one-sided conversation, and is taken advantage of way too much these days. Making people afraid of discussing their feelings or concerns don’t make them go away. They make them potentially dangerous long term.

You cannot change hearts and minds without reason. And you cannot reason without conversation, dialogue. And shutting down dialogue will eventually backfire, turning these situations into the very things that some are trying to snuff out by their accusations and name calling.

Just something I’ve noticed over the last 20 years or so. I don’t think it’s going to have the long term effect that the politically correct police are hoping for.:rolleyes:
 
Jeanette_L said:
It seems as though in our culture today, a person cannot express an opinion concerning the actions or intentions of a few without being called a bigot of the whole. Which seems to be the case with RomanCrusader and Valke2.

It is very popular today to try to shut down communication or conversation by calling someone something taboo, like racist, or bigot or anti-semite. And this is a shame, it allows only a one-sided conversation, and is taken advantage of way too much these days. Making people afraid of discussing their feelings or concerns don’t make them go away. They make them potentially dangerous long term.

You cannot change hearts and minds without reason. And you cannot reason without conversation, dialogue. And shutting down dialogue will eventually backfire, turning these situations into the very things that some are trying to snuff out by their accusations and name calling.

Just something I’ve noticed over the last 20 years or so. I don’t think it’s going to have the long term effect that the politically correct police are hoping for.:rolleyes:
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Look. It is not a question of trying to shut down someone’s opinon. To broadly paint jews as despised atheists, citing things like Freud and Stalin to support your comments, is anti-semetic. There’s nothing blurry about that post. read it again and wherever it says “Jews” replace the word with Catholics and see what you come away with. Try pretending there are 15 million of you and 2 billion of them while you are reading it as well. Let me know what you think.
 
RomanCrusader said:
Oh. I didn’t know that was her literal name. My error. I assumed it was just an attempt by her at being sacreligious, as that seems to be her style.

And come on, most observant Jews don’t even take Kabbalah seriously! Its like scientology, filled with Hollywood airheads.
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Your posts seem to be designed to provoke jews. I have to assume at this point that you are intentionally making inflammatory statements for your own purposes.
 
Valke2 said:
Your posts seem to be designed to provoke jews. I have to assume at this point that you are intentionally making inflammatory statements for your own purposes.
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If you have a problem with his position, then my suggestion is to take it to PM or email, or else this thread will be shut down for not only getting off topic, but for engaging in personal attacks.
 
LRThunder said:
If you have a problem with his position, then my suggestion is to take it to PM or email, or else this thread will be shut down for not only getting off topic, but for engaging in personal attacks.
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Good. It should be shut down. Why should I remain silent so that it can continue??
 
Valke2 said:
Look. It is not a question of trying to shut down someone’s opinon. To broadly paint jews as despised atheists, citing things like Freud and Stalin to support your comments, is anti-semetic. There’s nothing blurry about that post. read it again and wherever it says “Jews” replace the word with Catholics and see what you come away with. Try pretending there are 15 million of you and 2 billion of them while you are reading it as well. Let me know what you think.
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I agree.

I also think we should face boldly the fact that, until the past half century, anti-semitism was part and parcel of the Catholic tradition. It’s a fact, the Church has taught anti-semitism and has practiced it for virtually all of its history.

No, the Church has not been as bad as some other anti-semites, but it’s just plain dishonest to claim that the Church has not traditionally been rife with these views.

I’m sure glad to see that it is changing.
 
If this thread is to continue, (and I might add the topic is quite interesting), each side must edit for tone and charity. Those one one side might consider toning down the brashness of posts, and the other might consider taking the whole post for what it’s worth rather than seeing a few comments within and jumping to a broad conclusion.

This is a discussion that might strive to bring light between the obvious division between the two opinions. Then again it might not. I ask that we try.

Remember your charity.
Remember your patience.
Remember to love as God loved you.
 
If the original premise is true (that Latin mass afficionados are most likely to be anti-Semitic) might it not be due to their having missed out on the last 40 years worth of rapprochement between the Church and the Jews, including JPII’s abject apology for the mistreatment given to the Jews through the ages? I could see that if the Latin mass attenders you’re talking about are SSPX or sedevacantists of one type or another. NO so much if you’re talking about indult goers as these folks ought to be in the know.
 
I don’t have anything against the Jewish people as a people either, but the poster is correct that most of modern American Judaism is liberal and supports homosexuality and abortion.
It used to be just the Reformed Judaism that endorsed those things, but now the Conservative synagogues in the USA are headed in that direction too. That’s a shame, because
Biblical Judaism has a strict code of righteousness demanded by God. But it is unfair to single out the Jewish people’s slide into liberalism. Most mainline protestant “Christian” denominations also endorse these vile things. They didn’t endorse them 40 or 50 years ago, it’s a modern development. And even a great many (though thank God not the majority) of so-called Catholics now support abortion and sodomy. I meet them every day.

As for Kabbalah, I don’t know much about it except that one of my best friends, a 48 year old Jewish lady I went to college with,
says that the “Kabbalah” being practiced by the Hollywood stars is not “real” Kabbalah but commercialized nonsense for those into fads.
Jaypeeto3
 
Maybe a restating of what the thred was about might help the simmering pot cool?
Here’s what I thought it was:
Why some catholics may or may not believe that some Jews may or may not have insitgated some negative events during the WWI era. the OP apparently came across this perspective for the first time while talking with some TLM-ers.
I fail to see this as a bash against either TLM-ers, Catholics in general or Jews.
Fact is there has always been conflict between Jews and other nations/religions. And there has always been conflict between Jews and Catholics. Both have histories of being less than peacefull at times to put it mildly. It is not anti-semitic or athistic to say that. It’s just honest ruth.
**As for comments against somethings Jews are doing… **
Well honestly I have yet to hear one that is exclusive to them. Shamefull truth fo that is that sin is not exclusive to any race or religion.
 
Valke2 said:
Look. It is not a question of trying to shut down someone’s opinon. To broadly paint jews as despised atheists, citing things like Freud and Stalin to support your comments, is anti-semetic. There’s nothing blurry about that post. read it again and wherever it says “Jews” replace the word with Catholics and see what you come away with. Try pretending there are 15 million of you and 2 billion of them while you are reading it as well. Let me know what you think.
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Clearly you haven’t even read my posts. I never mentioned Stalin once and I said there were many exceptions to my comments (Orthodox Jews).

And if you disagree with me so much then why don’t you try refuting my statements? As of now it seems to me you are not answering because you cannot refute what I have said.
 
A person cannot be both a Jew and an Atheist at the same time. It’s a contradition in terms to call someone a “Jewish atheist.”

We should not judge a religion by people who aren’t practicing it, even if they have Jewish-sounding names.

Freud was an atheist, and so was Stalin. Madonna has never been Jewish in her whole life - she was raised Catholic, and currently practices some kind of fringe cult religion.

A lot of practicing Jews have no issues with Christmas - they don’t celebrate it themselves, but they don’t think that Christians shouldn’t - in fact I read an article last year written by someone from the Jewish Defense League saying, “If they cancel Christmas, what’s next? If members of the majority religion don’t feel safe to practice their traditions in public, then what hope is there for us minorities?” Many Jews see Christmas as being very good for them, since it shows that religious expression is still allowed in the public square.

A lot of atheists, on the other hand (even some who used to be Jewish) have major issues with all public religious celebrations, and are equally against Christmas, Hannukah, and anything else that makes people wonder if there might be a God.
 
Jmcrae,

Your post applies to religious Jews. And what you say about religious Jews is mostly correct. The majority of religious Jews are quite decent, moral people.

However the problem is that these Jews are sadly in the minority. A whole lotta Jews (in America at least) seem to be atheistic and being Jewish to them means a more cultural thing rather than religious. Their only religious concern is hating on Jesus. They mistakenly believe this solidifies their “ethnic” Jewish identity. They will play the “your an anti-semite!” card to discredit anyone who attempts to bring their atheism to light.

Atheistic, liberal Jews have hijacked Judaism from religious Jews. I pray that the religious Jews take back their religion from the atheists. And I pray that our Jewish brothers recognize the Messaih.

If anything I’m one of the most pro-Jewish posters in this topic. I feel the Jews deserve a ton better than the atheistic, immoral influence they have now.
 
RomanCrusader said:
Jmcrae,

Your post applies to religious Jews. And what you say about religious Jews is mostly correct. The majority of religious Jews are quite decent, moral people.

However the problem is that these Jews are sadly in the minority. A whole lotta Jews (in America at least) seem to be atheistic and being Jewish to them means a more cultural thing rather than religious.
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I am sure the same thing could be said of many Catholics and Protestants. There are even “non-practicing Muslims” who follow Islamic dietary law, but don’t attend Friday services, and live very secular lives, for the most part. This problem isn’t unique to Judaism - lots of people are brought up with a very strong, organized belief system as children, and end up abandoning their religion as adults, while hanging on to certain favourite traditions. (I know someone who considers himself a “Presbyterian atheist” because he likes Baroque music, has a strong work ethic, and puts up a Christmas tree every December. In reality, though, there is nothing Presbyterian about him.)
Their only religious concern is hating on Jesus.
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I’m sure that’s true of most atheists, regardless of their upbringing.
 
Valke2 said:
Look. It is not a question of trying to shut down someone’s opinon. To broadly paint jews as despised atheists, citing things like Freud and Stalin to support your comments, is anti-semetic. There’s nothing blurry about that post. read it again and wherever it says “Jews” replace the word with Catholics and see what you come away with. Try pretending there are 15 million of you and 2 billion of them while you are reading it as well. Let me know what you think.
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It seems you may be taking several posts and lumping them into one post as one continuous idea. This is using each out of context.

RomanCrusader was speaking about a trend withing American Judaism, which is also a trend within many major religions* including * some Christian denominations or groups, as pointed out by jmcrae, that secular atheism is gaining influence and power within these subcultures and creating the impression that their views are the majority and only correct views to hold in our broader western culture. They have created a climate of intimidation that very few have the backbone to stand against. And if there does happen to be such a poor soul to appear on the scene, they are immediately castrated for all the world to see as a lesson on what not to do.

Now, saying that some of these very powerful and influential atheists happen to be Jews (we’re talking by birth, not their heart), seems to have created quite an uproar, and it shouldn’t. We happen to be speaking specifically about what has caused this impression (about Jews in power) among a group of TLM’s, and then logically, what should the rational response be to these people who hold these opinions and fears. And we shouldn’t forget that the key word here is fear. It’s what ultimately drives all irrational thoughts and behaviors, if that’s the case, especially where race is concerned, and the logical way to deal with this is to try to alleviate the fear. Intimidation is not the way, it is the opposite of what you want to do.

Getting angry that the topic is even being discussed or attempted is just counterproductive.
 
Jeanette_L said:
It seems you may be taking several posts and lumping them into one post as one continuous idea. This is using each out of context.

RomanCrusader was speaking about a trend withing American Judaism, which is also a trend within many major religions* including * some Christian denominations or groups, as pointed out by jmcrae, that secular atheism is gaining influence and power within these subcultures and creating the impression that their views are the majority and only correct views to hold in our broader western culture. They have created a climate of intimidation that very few have the backbone to stand against. And if there does happen to be such a poor soul to appear on the scene, they are immediately castrated for all the world to see as a lesson on what not to do.

Now, saying that some of these very powerful and influential atheists happen to be Jews (we’re talking by birth, not their heart), seems to have created quite an uproar, and it shouldn’t. We happen to be speaking specifically about what has caused this impression (about Jews in power) among a group of TLM’s, and then logically, what should the rational response be to these people who hold these opinions and fears. And we shouldn’t forget that the key word here is fear. It’s what ultimately drives all irrational thoughts and behaviors, if that’s the case, especially where race is concerned, and the logical way to deal with this is to try to alleviate the fear. Intimidation is not the way, it is the opposite of what you want to do.

Getting angry that the topic is even being discussed or attempted is just counterproductive.
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You can draw your own conclusions from his posts and I’ll draw mine.
 
RomanCrusader said:
Clearly you haven’t even read my posts. I never mentioned Stalin once and I said there were many exceptions to my comments (Orthodox Jews).

And if you disagree with me so much then why don’t you try refuting my statements? As of now it seems to me you are not answering because you cannot refute what I have said.
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DO me a favor. Print out your posts and bring them to your priest and ask him what he thinks of them.
 
RomanCrusader said:
Jmcrae,

Your post applies to religious Jews. And what you say about religious Jews is mostly correct. The majority of religious Jews are quite decent, moral people.

However the problem is that these Jews are sadly in the minority. A whole lotta Jews (in America at least) seem to be atheistic and being Jewish to them means a more cultural thing rather than religious. Their only religious concern is hating on Jesus. They mistakenly believe this solidifies their “ethnic” Jewish identity. They will play the “your an anti-semite!” card to discredit anyone who attempts to bring their atheism to light.

Atheistic, liberal Jews have hijacked Judaism from religious Jews. I pray that the religious Jews take back their religion from the atheists. And I pray that our Jewish brothers recognize the Messaih.

If anything I’m one of the most pro-Jewish posters in this topic. I feel the Jews deserve a ton better than the atheistic, immoral influence they have now.
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Pro jewish posts like these we can do without. Dress it up anyway you like, you have made it clear that you view the majoriity of jews as atheistic, immoral, media controlling, abortion holocaust supporting animals. If that ain’t anti-semetism, then I guess I don’t know what is. I won’t be returning to this thread. Enjoy your victory.
 
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