I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

[DLT]

The trouble between Christians and some Jewish people started when some of the early Christians of Jewish descent were kicked out of the synogogue as heretics. After he converted, St. Paul was one of them. During that time some Jewish leaders and Jewish people, not all of them, turned some Christians over to the Romans as heretics, etc. to be executed. Many of them were tortured to death since the Romans were so cruel. This is why the phrase “for fear of the Jews” was recorded in the New Testament by some Gentile Christians and Christians of Jewish descent. It caused a lot of bad feelings between Jews who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and those Jews and Gentile Christians who did. To mention this is not anti-semitism it is just fact.

Also, from the Catholic history I have read, when Isabella was Queen of Spain, Spain was fighting with the Moors. This was after the Muslims had invaded Northern Africa and killed some Christians and Jews for no other reason then that they refused to accept Mohammed as the last and greatest prophet. Also, the Moors had taken Christians as slaves, and then vice versa. Some Jewish people during Isabella’s reign turned on her and started siding with the Moors. This is when she gave the option to the Jewish people to convert or get out of the country. We can sit here, both Christians and Jews, and say how awful she was and that she was totally wrong. But we must ask ourselves what would we have done had we been in her place. There is no easy answer, now is there? It seems to me that there was enough guilt to go around on all sides. Again that is not anti-Semitism. Just fact.

 

[TNT]

Mixing things up and cris-crossing their meanings is one sure way to obscure the argument:
DICTIONARY:
Main Entry: Sem·ite Pronunciation: \ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\ Function: noun Etymology: French sémite, from Sem Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek Sēm, from Hebrew Shēm Date: 1848 1 a**:** a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b**:** a descendant of these peoples2**:** a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.

Here’s the kicker:
DICTIONARY:
Main Entry: an·ti–Sem·i·tism. Pronunciation: \ˌan-tē-ˈse-mə-ˌti-zəm, ˌan-ˌtī-\ Function: noun Date: 1882 : hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Yes, a term that has NO historical root until 120 years ago. Wholly made up.
Notice its universal coverage.
In other words, if you oppose JUDAISM but not the ETHNIC lineage, no matter, you are still a anti-semite.

That’s why this whole word (anti-semitism) is a conard.

If I’m opposed to the VOODOO religion, then by the above idea I am anti-Black people because all VOODOO is rooted in black people.
In other words, I’m a racist BECAUSE I oppose VOODOO RELIGION !

What a STUPID, no, perjurative way to define a word.

Trad Catholics are very conscious of anti-Zionism of the Socialist persuasion…and that Zionism’s ongoing attempts to dominate Western Culture with anti-catholic morals, as well as the removal of the Messiah/Christ from civilization. That’s what they oppose.

It has nothing to do with an ETHNIC Jew as opposed to NAZISM, which was ETHNIC oriented, no matter what religion that Jewish lineage held.

 

[palmas85]

Anti Semitism and the Church. Whew what a can of worms.

Well, Anti Semitism was certainly a big part of Chjristianity for a large part of its history, no doubt about that. Note I said Christianity, not just Catholicism. Anti Semitism existed in the very early days of Christianity believe it or not and with the gradual increase of numbers of pagans and others in the Church it grew more pronounced. Now there were reasons for that, some practical and others not, but they did exist. Lets remember that Christianity at that time was fighting for survival and growth in a world where almost everyone was a pagan except for the Jews and the Christians.

The Romans, pagans, demanded sacrifices to their Gods except from Jews, because Jews had ancient traditions and the Romans accepted that. The Christians would not sacrifice, did not have ancient traditions to fall back on and they suffered for it. They were persecuted not because they were Christians, the Romans really didn’t care about that, but because they were exclusively Christians, and the Romans did care about that. The only way the early Church could hope to escape the persecutions was to convince the authorities that they, the Christians were the ** true followers ** of Judaism, not the Jews. The Jews, by killing their Messiah, had forfeited their position as the chosen people. And so it began. Self preservation. And not to a small degree there was amongst many, heck almost all of the early Christians the idea that Jews who did not accept Christ deserved punishment. So by the second century anti-semitism was well established and continued to grow along with the Church.

Tat is a fact that cannot be denied. But it was not only the Catholic Church no, ALL Christian groups carried traces of anti-semitism. None can claim to be clean and pure. If you doubt that read some of Luthers writings. As far as that goes, it is not even confined to Christians. the most openly anti-semitic people in the world are Muslims.

Today, anti semitism lives on as it has for the past 2000 years. Some support it, others tolerate it and most despise it. I don’t think that Traditional Catholics are any more prone to anti semitism than are the members of any other group.

 

[DLT]

To me anti-Semitism would be to deliberately lie about, cheat, kill, etc. an innocent Jewish person. To say that some Jewish leaders had Christ executed is not anti-Semitism if it is factual, and I believe it is. To accuse all Jews of having done so would be would be anti-Semitism. As the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, “Everyone who has ever sinned caused the death of Christ because that is why he died–to save us from our sins. Everytime we sin we put a nail in his hands and feet.”

 

[GerardP]

Thanks for proving my point with your ad hominem post. You obviously represent the Traditionalist point of view.

1. You didn’t make a “point.” You made a bigoted slur against the Catholic Church. I pointed it out.
2. I didn’t make an ad hominem post. I made a judgement based on your words.
3. And as I knew would happen. You didn’t address any of the substance of what I posted. You simply took out that “broad brush” and think people are stupid enough to buy into that kind of calumny.

It ain’t workin’.

 

[DLT]

Gerard, you are right in your last e-mail. We are not buying it. We are not that stupid. I will give you an example. I went to a Bible study group taught by a “Catholic” priest. When he said sometime that did not seem quite right according to the teachings of the Church, or Biblical to me, I asked him, “Didn’t Christ predict the fall of Jerusalem?” He answered that some theologians thought that St. Luke was somewhat anti-semitic and that he put the words in Jesus’ mouth after the fact. My mouth fell open! I thought, as any thinking person would think, “Well, if St. Luke lied about that, what else did he lie about.” Of couse, I knew from Chruch and Biblical, teachings that the priest was basically teaching heresy–even according to most Prostestants. As far as I was concerned, he had just pulled the rug out from beneath his own reason for being a priest, and why did we need him. I told one lady, "How dumb do priests who say such things think we are? If Luke lied, then we might as well throw out the whole New Testament, and the Old Testament while we are at it because the Old Testament says that the kingdom of David is forever, and we all know that the Jewish kingdom of David has long gone. If Jesus Christ was not the messiah, and the eternal Son of God from the Davidic line and his kingdom an eternal one, than the Old Testament is not true, either. Of course, a friend of mine who knows eminent Catholic theologians told me where there is proof in the Bible and the early Church Fathers that St. Luke was right.

In trying to be politically correct and please everyone, some priests make fools of themselves and end up pleasing no one. I am sorry to have to say that, but it is true.

 

[DLT]

It seems as though I made a lot of typos in my last e-mail as I was in a hurry, and the message was long.

 

[RomanCrusader]

One can be anti-Judaism/anti-zionism without being anti-semetic, at least in my opinion.

Anti-Judaism is opposing the religion of Judaism. I do not care for Judaism as a religion, just like I don’t care for Islam, paganism, etc. I can respect members, but not the teachings of Judaism or the Talmud. Anti-Zionism is opposing the aggressive Israeli expansionist doctrine. The state of Israel is not “divine”, despite what some televangelist may say. There is nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints (anti-Judaism/zionism), as long as they are not taken to an extreme. If taken to an extreme, then perhaps these viewpoints could lead to anti-semetism. But in themselves there is nothing bigoted about them in a reasonable level.

Anti-semetism on the other hand, meaning hatred of Jews as people, is evil. Our Lord was ethnically Jewish, as were His disciples. While modern Jews and the Lord are of radically different religious teaching, they are the same blood. Thus hatred of the Jews is horrid, as is any form of racism. The Catholic Church has never endorsed the evil of racism, as there is no place for racism in a universal Church. I cannot say the same for certain sects of Protestantism or the state of Israel, both of which have backed racism.

In my opinion the least anti-semetic thing a Catholic can do is pray for the conversion of Jews.

The fact that modern Judaism (reform in particular) is so alien to the faith of Abraham is a tragedy. And that viewpoint is echoed by many of our friends in the Orthodox Jewish community, such as rabbi Yehuda Levin (who is a real good guy). How “reform Judaism” can claim to be from God is beyond me.

 

[DLT]

I agree with you, Roman Crusader. I bought a book once by an orthdox Jewish rabbi, called, “Does’t Anybody Blush Any More?” (I have not figured out how to underline the name of books on this website.yet.) He was appalled at some of the things both liberal Jews and Christians were doing and advocating without repentance. I have read other similar books by Jewish writers, also.

 

[DLT]

I am not sure all in the Israeli government have an expansionist policy, though. I think it runs both ways–Palestianians and Israelis. Christians just want the sections they already have for the Holy Sites. Besides the Muslims already have a lot of land of their own, at least I think so.

 

[RomanCrusader]

I agree with you, Roman Crusader. I bought a book once by an orthdox Jewish rabbi, called, “Does’t Anybody Blush Any More?” (I have not figured out how to underline the name of books on this website.yet.) He was appalled at some of the things both liberal Jews and Christians were doing and advocating without repentance. I have read other similar books by Jewish writers, also.

The problem is that when people like us voice our opinion, the liberal Jews and atheists scream “ANTI-SEMITE!”.

 

[JMMK]

Antisemitism in Europe goes way back to Roman times. They were often misunderstood and people blamed all manner of witchcraft on them and things of that sort. This is partly because they all spoke a ‘strange’ language that few others understood, had ‘bizarre’ rituals that seemed to have nothing to do with God, and so on and so forth. Ignorance breeds intolerance.

There is also the fiscal side. For various religious and cultural reasons, Christians couldn’t be each other bankers and like wise with Jews. However, the Jews were able to be the bankers for Christendom. Much like today, we hate those with money and feel we are being ripped off.

This all filters down to today sadly.

[The majority of this comes from the “Folklore and Fairytales of Europe” class I took back in college.]

 

[DLT]

Again, I am not sure the Israeli government has ever backed racism. I would have to look into that further. I think in most cases the answer would be, “No”.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Again, I am not sure the Israeli government has ever backed racism. I would have to look into that further. I think in most cases the answer would be, “No”.

The Israelis hired a bunch of Chinese workers to do labor in their country. However each worker had to sign an agreement saying they will not have relations with Israeli/Jewish women or they will be kicked out of the country.

How is that not racist?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Amen to what TNT said. A “semite” is not merely a Jew-ethnic or religious. Anti-semitism would actually mean someone who has some sort of hatred towards many people of different religious and national backgrounds in the middle east.

“Anti-semitism” is largely one of those PC terms that gets thrown around (largely by progressives) to silence or shame an opponent.

We traddies are “anti-semites” because of wanting to keep a few prayers in the traditional liturgies that dare to pray for the conversion of people still in a false religion. Yes, I said Judaism is a false religion! What is practiced nowaday has only a faint connection to the actual Jewish religion practiced in the days of Jesus and before. That religion was replaced when Rome destroyed the temple, indeed, even before that with the institution of the Church by our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Pope Pius XII clearly teaches this in Mystici Corporis, para. 29-

1. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel [30] - the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[34] “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” [35]

Sure, I don’t doubt that some trads might hold wacky conspiracy theories but we also get broadsided for saying what has traditionally been said about Judaism. Wouldn’t that make us the least “anti-semitic” as we are trying to do the truly loving thing and bring them into the fold of the one True Church?

 

[DLT]

Roman Crusader, when the Israeli government made the Chinese workers sign the papers saying they would not have imtimate relations with Jewish/Israeli women, it might have been for religious and moral reasons. Both the Old and New Testament discourages inter-faith marriages and sex outside of marriage. If a Chinese man converted to the Jewish faith and wanted to marry a Jewish woman, and the government refused to let him, then it could be considered a matter of racism.

Comrade Andrei, I have a prayer book by Father John Hardon, S.J., who was a very holy priest. The book has a beautiful prayer for the conversion of the Jewish people. I have no problelm with it. I also have a 1962 Missal with the same kind of pray in it on Good Friday, and it is all right, but I do prefer Fr. Hardon’s prayer. I think he has a kinder way of saying the same thing. I would not want to return to using the prayer that has the term “perfidious Jews” in it, though.

I think it is time to forgive and forget some things to a certain extent. After all, the Lord said from the Cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do," and I am sure many Jewish people were included in His prayer. After all, some Jewish peple do not believe in Jesus Christ out of ignorance, some may not believe because they might have been mistreated by some Christians, and others are truly guilty and do not believe because of some serious sin in their life. Only God knows who is who.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Roman Crusader, when the Israeli government made the Chinese workers sign the papers saying they would not have imtimate relations with Jewish/Israeli women, it might have been for religious and moral reasons. Both the Old and New Testament discourages inter-faith marriages and sex outside of marriage. If a Chinese man converted to the Jewish faith and wanted to marry a Jewish woman, and the government refused to let him, then it could be considered a matter of racism.

.

If that is the case, then why are they barred from having sex with prostitutes to?according to a contact they are required to sign, male workers may not have any contact with Israeli women - including prostitutes, a police spokesman, Rafi Yaffe, said

Here is something else those poor chinese workers had to agree too…
The labourers are also forbidden from engaging in any religious or political activity. The contract states that offenders will be sent back to China at their own expense.
guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1112442,00.html

 

[Steelers_Rule]

Many secular Jews in Hollywood and the media put perverted smut onto our TV’s. Look at Madonna. She is pretty much the prime example of an immoral atheist Hollywood Jew…

Madonna was born Madonna Louise Ciccone. Her confirmation middle name is Veronica. Her father is a first-generation Italian-American Catholic.

However I think a lot of anger towards certain Jews today is because modern Jews are so atheistic. Its very tragic…

Yeah, that’s it.

Were you the caller near the end of the 12/20 open forum?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Madonna was born Madonna Louise Ciccone. Her confirmation middle name is Veronica. Her father is a first-generation Italian-American Catholic.

Isn’t that nice. But she is now practicing some form of Judaism, Kaballah.

Since the late-1990s, Madonna has become a devotee of the Kabbalah Centre and a disciple of its controversial head Rabbi Philip Berg and his wife Karen. Madonna and husband Guy Ritchie attend Kabbalah classes and have been reported to have adopted a number of aspects of the movement associated with Judaism. She no longer performs on Friday nights because this is the time when the Jewish Shabbat begins. Madonna wears a red string and has visited Israel with members of the Kabbalah Centre to celebrate some of the Jewish holidays. She also studies personally with her own private-tutor, Rabbi Eitan Yardeni, whose wife Sarah Yardeni runs Madonna’s favorite charitable project, “Spirituality for Kids”, a subsidiary of the Kabbalah Centre.[98] Madonna reportedly donated $21 million towards a new Kabbalah school for children.[99]
Controversy erupted again well before the release of her most recent album, Confessions on a Dance Floor. Many Israeli rabbis condemned Madonna and the forthcoming song “Isaac” (tenth on its track listing) because they believed the song to be a tribute to Rabbi Isaac Luria, also known as Yitzhak Luria (1534–1572), one of the greatest Kabbalists of all time, and claimed that Jewish law forbids using a holy rabbi’s name for profit. In interviews, Madonna had called this song: “The Binding of Isaac” and rumors spread that it was based on the major episode in the life of the Hebrew patriarch Isaac. Despite continued accusations that the song is about Isaac Luria, Madonna has repeatedly denied such accusations, claiming she could not think of a title for the song and, therefore, named it after Yitzhak (Isaac) Sinwani. In the song, Madonna sings with Sinwani, an Israeli singer, who is chanting a Yemenite Jewish song. Said Madonna: “The album isn’t even out, so how could Jewish scholars in Israel know what my song is about? I don’t know enough about Isaac Luria to write a song, though I’ve learned a bit in my studies.”[100]
Madonna has openly defended her Kabbalah studies by stating, for example:
“ I wouldn’t say studying Kabbalah for eight years goes under the category or falls under the category of being a fad or a trend. Now there might be people who are interested in it because they think it’s trendy, I certainly do, but I can assure you that studying Kabbalah is actually a very challenging thing to do. It requires a lot of work, a lot of reading, a lot of time, a lot of commitment and a lot of discipline.[101]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(entertainer)#Kabbalah_Center

 

[jj2011]

“Anti-semitism” is largely one of those PC terms that gets thrown around (largely by progressives) to silence or shame an opponent.

We traddies are “anti-semites” because of wanting to keep a few prayers in the traditional liturgies that dare to pray for the conversion of people still in a false religion.

I agree with the Comrade, except that I have a couple of times heard other trads self-identify themselves as “anti-Semitic,” while others have adopted extreme (and foolish) theories that Jesus was not a Jew.

Unfortunately, these nutty ideas reinforce the canards about the supposed anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church.