I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

[DLT]

wifeandmother of two, as far as the Israeli government forbidding the Chinese workers using the services of Israeli protitutes, it could be that the Orthodox Jewish rabbis are trying to discourage protitution period. I really do not know the intent of the law.

As far as the laborers being forbidden to take any part in religious or political activity that does seem strange to us. But according to the laws of the Old Testament (the Torah) it might be to keep any polytheistic religions out of Israel, or the mixing of polytheistic religions with monotheistic ones. I don’t know. All I can say is this, if the Israelis have such strict laws, the Israeli men should also adhere to those same laws if and when they go to China. They should treat Chinese women with the utmost respect as they want their women treated. That is the “Golden Rule” you know. I do not know if that is the case, though.

As far as the actress Madonna is concerned, we all know she is an apostate Christian because she was baptized. She is neither truly Christian or truly Jewish. Let us pray for her, but avoid buying her CD’s, etc.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

As far as the laborers being forbidden to take any part in religious or political activity that does seem strange to us. But according to the laws of the Old Testament (the Torah) it might be to keep any polytheistic religions out of Israel, or the mixing of polytheistic religions with monotheistic ones…

Israel does afford its inhabitants the freedom to practice their religion, so why was this not afforded to the Chinese?
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/freedom.html
mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/People/SOCIETY-+Religious+Freedom.htm

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

If that is the case, then why are they barred from having sex with prostitutes to?according to a contact they are required to sign, male workers may not have any contact with Israeli women - including prostitutes, a police spokesman, Rafi Yaffe, said

Here is something else those poor chinese workers had to agree too…
The labourers are also forbidden from engaging in any religious or political activity. The contract states that offenders will be sent back to China at their own expense.
guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1112442,00.html

The rest of the article…

An Israeli lawyer who did not want to be named said while the contract might appear legal, it would be rejected if challenged in court.* “The point is that a Chinese worker will agree to anything and then will not have anyone to help them if there is a problem,”** he said.

The labourers are also forbidden from engaging in any religious or political activity. The contract states that offenders will be sent back to China at their own expense.

About 260,000 foreigners work in Israel, having replaced Palestinian labourers during three years of fighting. When the government first allowed the entrance of the foreign workers in the late 1990s, ministers warned of a “social timebomb” caused by their assimilation with Israelis.

More than half the workers are in the country illegally. Israeli police have increased efforts to deport those working without permits because of rising Israeli unemployment, which has reached 11% in recent months.

Advocates of foreign workers, who also come from Thailand, the Philippines and Romania, say they are subject to almost slave conditions, and their employers often take away their passports and refuse to pay them.

Analysts say there is much division within Israeli society over immigration and status, although the conflict with the Palestinians has given it an appearance of unity. Recent immigrants such as Russians and Ethiopians are disliked by older immigrants, and there is much resentment among secular Israelis at the privileges given to ultra-orthodox Jews. The foreign workers are at the bottom of the pile.
*

 

[porkscratchings]

wifeandmother of two, as far as the Israeli government forbidding the Chinese workers using the services of Israeli protitutes, it could be that the Orthodox Jewish rabbis are trying to discourage protitution period. I really do not know the intent of the law.

If that was the case - why isn’t the rule extended to all inhabs of Israel, rather than targetting the chinese workers specifically. Looks like racism against a minority that can’t speak Hebrew / too scared to fight against this discrimination.

Where have we seen this before, I wonder?

 

[RomanCrusader]

Were you the caller near the end of the 12/20 open forum?

No, and I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to elaborate?

 

[Valke2]

What does the allegation of discrimination against chinese workers in Israel have to do with the topic of this thread? Or Madonna’s membership of some Kabbalah center?

 

[DLT]

When I posted my last e-mail I forgot that the government of China is officially Communistic-Atheistic. It is possible that the strict laws of the Israeli government concerning Chinese workers is a “tit for tat” reaction to China’s discriminatory laws, and has nothing to do with racism at all.

 

[RomanCrusader]

When I posted my last e-mail I forgot that the government of China is officially Communistic-Atheistic. It is possible that the strict laws of the Israeli government concerning Chinese workers is a “tit for tat” reaction to China’s discriminatory laws, and has nothing to do with racism at all.

Israel had no problem selling weapons to China.

 

[chosen_people]

"Two reasons can be assigned for the fact that Our Lord’s faithful members will often be betrayed by those who should be on the side of Christ the King.

Firstly, many Catholic writers speak of papal condemnations of Anti-Semitism without explaining the meaning of the term and never even allude to the documents which insist on the rights of Our Divine Lord, Head of the Mystical Body, Priest and King. Thus, very many are completely ignorant of the duty incumbent on all Catholics of standing positively for Our Lord’s reign in society in opposition to the Jewish naturalism. The result is that numbers of Catholics are so ignorant of Catholic doctrine that they hurl the accusation of Anti-Semitism against those who are battling for the rights of Christ the King thus effectively aiding the enemies of Our Divine Lord.

Secondly, many Catholic writers copy unquestioningly what they read in the naturalistic or anti-supernatural Press and do not distinguish between Anti-Semitism in the correct Catholic sense as explained above, and “Anti-Semitism,” as the Jews understand it. For the Jews, “Anti-Semitism” is anything that is in opposition to the naturalistic Messanic domination of their nation over all the others. Quite logically, the leaders of the Jewish nation hold that to stand for the Rights of Christ the King is to be “Anti-Semitic.” The term “Anti-Semitism,” with all its war-connotation in the minds of the unthinking, is being extended to include any form of opposition to the Jewish nation’s naturalistic aims and any exposure of the methods they adopt to achieve these aims.

At the beatification of Joan of Arc (December 13, 1908), the saintly Pope Pius X said:

“In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of those disposed toward evil is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigor of Satan’s reign is due to the easygoing weakness of Catholics. Oh! if I might ask the Divine Redeemer, as the Prophet Zachary did in spirit (Zach. 13:6a): ‘What are those wounds in the midst of Thy hands?’ The answer would not be doubtful: ‘… With these I was wounded in the house of them that loved me’ (Zach. 13:6b). I was wounded by my friends, who did nothing to defend me, and who, on every occasion, made themselves the accomplices of my adversaries. And this reproach can be leveled at the weak and timid Catholic of all countries.”

Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp"

To learn more about the Fahey’s claim of “Jewish naturalism” where Jews are attempting to dominate society and ideas against Catholicism and Christianity (see the posts on this thread that adopt this attitude “I have nothing against Judaisim just those athiest Jew ideas”) go to Catholic Trad websites like sspx.org.Then you can understand your friends attitudes towards Jews.

 

[TMC]

To learn more about the Fahey’s claim of “Jewish naturalism” where Jews are attempting to dominate society and ideas against Catholicism and Christianity (see the posts on this thread that adopt this attitude “I have nothing against Judaisim just those athiest Jew ideas”) go to Catholic Trad websites like sspx.org.Then you can understand your friends attitudes towards Jews.

It is the teachings of organizations like SSPX that make people associate traditionalism with anti-semitism. SSPC has this to say about Jews:

The Gospel teaches us, therefore, that the Jewish race brought upon themselves the curse that followed the crime of deicide.
However, in what does that curse consist. Surely it cannot be that there is a collective guilt of the Jewish race for the sin of deicide. For only those individuals are responsible for the sin who knowingly and willingly brought it about. Jews of today are manifestly not responsible for that sin. The curse is of a different nature, and corresponds to the greatness of the vocation of the Jewish people as a preparation for the Messias, to the superiority of their election, which makes them first in the order of grace. Just as the true Israelites, who accept the Messias, are the first to receive “glory, honor and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Rm. 2:10), so also are the first to receive the punishment of their refusal of the Messias: “Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek” (Rm. 2:9). The curse is then the punishment for the hardhearted rebelliousness of a people that has refused the time of its visitation, that has refused to convert and to live a moral, spiritual life, directed towards heaven. This curse is the punishment of blindness to the things of God and eternity, of deafness to the call of conscience and to the love of good and hatred of evil which is the basis of all moral life, of spiritual paralysis, of total preoccupation with an earthly kingdom.

Is the belief that all Jews carry a blood curse and are born incapable of discerning good from evil anti-semitic? Is the statement that Jews are preoccupied with an earthly kingdom a barely disguished rehash of the old money-grubbing Jew stereotype? I would say so.

This is not only not the Church’s teaching, it is patently heretical, and relies on an unconscionable twisting of Paul’s words in Romans. The Catholic faith makes no provision for the sins of past generations to be carried through generation after generation. All men are created in God’s image and all have inherent dignity. None are inherently incapable of discerning good from evil.

 

[GerardP]

To learn more about the Fahey’s claim of “Jewish naturalism” where Jews are attempting to dominate society and ideas against Catholicism and Christianity (see the posts on this thread that adopt this attitude “I have nothing against Judaisim just those athiest Jew ideas”) go to Catholic Trad websites like sspx.org.Then you can understand your friends attitudes towards Jews.

That’s a nice bigoted statement about “Catholic Trads” and the SSPX. Nice of you to take out a broad brush and make your false accusation. You also left out Fahey’s condemnations of Freemasonry and Communism as enemies of the Church.

I looked back on the thread and I saw a series of bigoted attacks against the Catholic Church. False accusations, lies about history and the broad brush being taken out. But that’s okay, I guess, right?

Secondly, how about if you provide a clear-cut, no nonsense definition of what “anti-Semitism” is and we’ll argue it with logic and not emotional ploys?

Third I suggest you drop the ploy of “Here’s an example of anti-semitism, if you read any poster who tries to make a distinction and not use a broad brush against jews, don’t believe them.”

It’s a rather pathetic attempt at “guilt by association” and makes your argument more than hypocritical. Blurring distinctions is a way to camouflage something that someone doesn’t want noticed.

In other words, the self-contradicting rule for today is, jews may only be discussed or studied in any social, political or cultural way as a uniform group. No distinctions between jews can be accepted no negative judgements on any level, social, cultural, historical, national are to be allowed.

Clever, that way all analysis can be labeled as “anti-semitism.”

If someone uses a broad brush, they are anti-semitic, if someone tries to make a distinction, they are anti-semitic.

Italians have had mafioso distinct from all Italians, the Germans have had nazis, distinct from all Germans the Irish have “tinkers” and “shanty-Irish” along with the more radical elements from the IRA days.

Yet any reference to an unhealthy or malevolent element within the jewish community is labeled “anti-semitism.”

 

[GerardP]

It is the teachings of organizations like SSPX that make people associate traditionalism with anti-semitism. SSPC has this to say about Jews:

No. It isn’t. It’s people that don’t know what they are talking about making radical accusations against the SSPX trying to make something “stick”

Is the belief that all Jews carry a blood curse and are born incapable of discerning good from evil anti-semitic?

That’s not what the SSPX say. The Vatican would have denounced them by now for teaching things that are not orthodox.

Is the statement that Jews are preoccupied with an earthly kingdom a barely disguished rehash of the old money-grubbing Jew stereotype? I would say so.

That’s just you. You can be and are wrong.

This is not only not the Church’s teaching, it is patently heretical, and relies on an unconscionable twisting of Paul’s words in Romans.

It isn’t heretical and you are not the one with magisterial authority to declare a heresy.

It also doesn’t twist St. Paul’s words.

The Catholic faith makes no provision for the sins of past generations to be carried through generation after generation.

um…Original sin?

All men are created in God’s image and all have inherent dignity. None are inherently incapable of discerning good from evil.

That makes someone all the more guilty for not accepting Jesus and His Church. Correct? Inherent dignity is only the result of being a creature of God. Therefore it is incumbant on the creature to recognize his dignity in that light and reach toward his created end where his full dignity is realized. In Christ.

 

[latinmasslover]

Didn’t SAINT Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein, former Jew!) say that the Holocaust was a fulfillment of the curse the Jews called down on themselves way back when?

 

[GerardP]

…(see the posts on this thread that adopt this attitude “I have nothing against Judaisim just those athiest Jew ideas”) go to Catholic Trad websites like sspx.org.Then you can understand your friends attitudes towards Jews.

Looking over this a second time, actually any Catholic worthy of the name should have a problem with Judaism. Atheism is an obvious problem. But Judaism as a system of belief in the post-resurrection period of the new and eternal covenant should also be problematic for any Catholic for the simple reason that it isn’t salvific. It would be uncharitable to not want conversions from Judaism.

To make the forbidden distinctions, we need to clarify between people who are ethnically jewish, culturally jewish, politically jewish and religiously jewish and all combinations thereof and the possible pros and cons of each. Ethnicity not really being relevant except for its use as a political ploy by those trying to avoid discussing bad elements hiding among the good in the jewish community (as this is true in all communities.)

 

[TMC]

No. It isn’t. It’s people that don’t know what they are talking about making radical accusations against the SSPX trying to make something “stick”

That’s not what the SSPX say. The Vatican would have denounced them by now for teaching things that are not orthodox.

All of this is from their website. It says it was written in 2004 so they have been putting it out as their teachings for almost four years. If they teach something else what is it?

That’s just you. You can be and are wrong.

I know that there is much debate over what anti-semitism is. I suggest that teaching that all Jews are consumed by the love of money is anti-semitic. You disagree. I feel confident I am in the majority on this one.

It isn’t heretical and you are not the one with magisterial authority to declare a heresy.

You are right, I have no authority (nor does SSPX). I probably should have said that in my opinion it is heretical to say that some humans are born without the power to discern good from evil. I believe it contradicts a number of teachings but especially the Magisterial teaching that all men are created in God’s image and with that all men are “capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons.”

It also doesn’t twist St. Paul’s words.

In Romans Paul was discussing distinctions between two types of early Christian - Jewish Christians, and Greek Christians. He is discussing the ongoing conflict between the converted Jews that are judging the Greeks for not having and keeping the law and the Greeks that are refusing to follow the old law. He is telling Jewish Christians that the fact that they have the old law means they should be able to better understand the fullness of Christ’s message. He is saying “you should know better”. He is not speaking of Jews that have not accepted Christ, but of Christians that keep the Jewish laws. Anyone who has done more than a cursory reading of Romans knows this. Do you deny that? Now 2000 years later that is applied not to Christian Jews, but Jews of today to create a “curse that followed the crime of deicide.”

um…Original sin?

Very cute. The Church believes that all mankind suffers from the Fall, yes, but does not teach that sins of individuals follow from generation to generation.

That makes someone all the more guilty for not accepting Jesus and His Church. Correct? Inherent dignity is only the result of being a creature of God. Therefore it is incumbant on the creature to recognize his dignity in that light and reach toward his created end where his full dignity is realized. In Christ.

I don’t understand what this means. All men are made in God’s image. It is incumbant on all to seek God. This is not more true for Jews than it is for anyone else. But by the SSPX reasoning this is not possible for Jews because they bear a curse that prevents them from discerning good from evil. How are they supposed to reach toward God and realize full dignity if they have been stripped of the ability to make moral discernment? This idea that Jews bear some guilt for Christ’s death that makes them inherently less worthy than other people is anti-semitism, plain and simple.

 

[Valke2]

Didn’t SAINT Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein, former Jew!) say that the Holocaust was a fulfillment of the curse the Jews called down on themselves way back when?

Don’t know. Sounds like a loony thing to say. If I had to bet, I’d bet that she didn’t say that. If for no other reason than this is something that has been said by those who lived through the Holocaust, not those who died in it.

 

[GerardP]

All of this is from their website. It says it was written in 2004 so they have been putting it out as their teachings for almost four years. If they teach something else what is it?

From the very words you posted: (did you even read it?)

"Surely it cannot be that there is a collective guilt of the Jewish race for the sin of deicide. For only those individuals are responsible for the sin who knowingly and willingly brought it about… Jews of today are manifestly not responsible for that sin.

I know that there is much debate over what anti-semitism is. I suggest that teaching that all Jews are consumed by the love of money is anti-semitic. You disagree. I feel confident I am in the majority on this one.

Where does the SSPX and the Catholic Church in general teach that “all jews are consumed by the love of money?”

Are you going to actually deal with the discussion or set up straw man arguments?

You are right, I have no authority (nor does SSPX).

No. But any Catholic or non-Catholic can quote a magisterial teaching.

I probably should have said that in my opinion it is heretical to say that some humans are born without the power to discern good from evil.

What about the severely mentally handicapped?

I believe it contradicts a number of teachings but especially the Magisterial teaching that all men are created in God’s image and with that all men are “capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons.”

In Romans Paul was discussing distinctions between two types of early Christian - Jewish Christians, and Greek Christians. He is discussing the ongoing conflict between the converted Jews that are judging the Greeks for not having and keeping the law and the Greeks that are refusing to follow the old law. He is telling Jewish Christians that the fact that they have the old law means they should be able to better understand the fullness of Christ’s message. He is saying “you should know better”.

Correct. He is saying they should know better because they are jews and have the privileged place in their election and order of grace through God’s generosity alone and not their own “dignity” as jews.

He is not speaking of Jews that have not accepted Christ, but of Christians that keep the Jewish laws.

What’s your point? All have been given sufficient grace to know Christ and those who come from the people chosen to be the cradle of salvation are not culpable for their refusal to enter the Church?

Anyone who has done more than a cursory reading of Romans knows this. Do you deny that?

Obviously that is a tangential reference to the “curse” cited in St. Matthew’s Gospel.

Now 2000 years later that is applied not to Christian Jews, but Jews of today to create a “curse that followed the crime of deicide.”

Again, you are setting up straw men. The SSPX says the opposite. You even posted it.

Very cute. The Church believes that all mankind suffers from the Fall, yes, but does not teach that sins of individuals follow from generation to generation.

Actually, natural law tells us the opposite. Babies are born suffering from the abuses of alcohol and drugs from their parents who abused drugs and booze.

 

[GerardP]

I don’t understand what this means. All men are made in God’s image. It is incumbant on all to seek God. This is not more true for Jews than it is for anyone else.

Jews were prepared for the Messiah much more than the Gentiles. Much is required from one whom much is given. “Missing the hour of their visitation” exacts a high penalty.

But by the SSPX reasoning this is not possible for Jews because they bear a curse that prevents them from discerning good from evil.

That’s not the SSPX’s teaching. That’s the SSPX relating the Catholic Church’s teaching. Which is what they’ve always done. Just as Pharoah’s heart was hardened by his own obstinance, that is why jews of today who are not Christian are going down a dark path. Away from the light of Christ. God doesn’t force himself on people.

How are they supposed to reach toward God and realize full dignity if they have been stripped of the ability to make moral discernment?

By the grace of God. He’ll give them sufficient grace to know. Whether their own wills and hard-heartedness prevents them from converting is a case for each individual. Edith Stein, Fr. Harry Marchosky and other famous converts overcame this hurdle just as the Gentiles who had not been given the revelations of the coming Messiah didn’t miss the hour of visitation.

This idea that Jews bear some guilt for Christ’s death that makes them inherently less worthy than other people is anti-semitism, plain and simple.

Every person except the blessed Mother bears guilt for Christ’s death. Why should jews be exempt? Didn’t He die for them too? The fact that they were instrumental in it, just makes it a longer journey for them and their descendents taught to reject Him to come to Christ. Not impossible but a bit more difficult. It’s the loss of the privilege that they once had and can have again as the apple of God’s eye.

It’s the idea that jews bear no guilt in the death of Christ that makes them inherently less worthy and is anti-semitic. To leave them wallowing around in the Old nullified covenant of Moses would be the height of cruelty.

Look at the Haydock notes from Matt chapter 27 on what the Church Fathers (pre-SSPX) have described as the ‘blood curse’

haydock1859.tripod.com/id45.html

 

[latinmasslover]

Don’t know. Sounds like a loony thing to say. If I had to bet, I’d bet that she didn’t say that. If for no other reason than this is something that has been said by those who lived through the Holocaust, not those who died in it.

St. Teresa and her sister were both gassed at Aushwitz! The quote of hers was, if I’m not mistaken, from one of the books describing the recently canonized Saints (the title escapes me now).

 

[Valke2]

well I can’t find any such quote via the internet.