I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

[latinmasslover]

The massacre of 1/3 of the Jewish people in the holocaust as a curse by God because the Jews rejected Catholicism? Hitler as God’s instrument on earth to carry out God’s punishment?

The Lord has always used the enemies of a person/nation for punishment. You don’t really expect Him to come down here with a wooden paddle to swat bottoms, do you?

The holocaust would have nothing to do with them rejecting Catholicism, otherwise we would’ve heard about the mass murder of Buddists, Hindus, Protestants, etc. The largest number murdered were Jews, but they were not the only ones.

Why is it so hard to believe that Hitler was God’s instrument? The Lord used Absolom (spelling?) to punish David. He also used David to punish Saul. God is not a hormonal woman, He doesn’t change.

The Jews called down a curse on themselves and their children. They *literally *asked for it. If anyone wants to play the blame game, it goes back to *some *Jews in the days of Jesus. This also happened before Jesus. The Jews refused to listen to the prophets that God sent, and everybody was punished as a result. Not fair, but that’s life.

 

[chosen_people]

The Lord has always used the enemies of a person/nation for punishment. You don’t really expect Him to come down here with a wooden paddle to swat bottoms, do you?

The holocaust would have nothing to do with them rejecting Catholicism, otherwise we would’ve heard about the mass murder of Buddists, Hindus, Protestants, etc. The largest number murdered were Jews, but they were not the only ones.

Why is it so hard to believe that Hitler was God’s instrument? The Lord used Absolom (spelling?) to punish David. He also used David to punish Saul. God is not a hormonal woman, He doesn’t change.

The Jews called down a curse on themselves and their children. They *literally *asked for it. If anyone wants to play the blame game, it goes back to *some *Jews in the days of Jesus. This also happened before Jesus. The Jews refused to listen to the prophets that God sent, and everybody was punished as a result. Not fair, but that’s life.

In this thread the person asked about antisemitic comments by traditional Catholics. No one could have given a more eloquent answer then you have.

 

[HollyDolly]

I’m not too up on the causes of WW1,but there was a growing desire by various factors for countries controled by the Austro Hungarian empire to have a seperate identity and be free of their countrol. The Hungarians and other groups at times tried to free themselves but weren’t successful.
never heard of Stalin beling a jew.Trotsky,and Kerensky yes, even
heard Lenin was a jew.There were jews among the Russian revolutionary leadership is true.Wish my late dad was alive.He knew a great deal about the events which started WW1.

Now why tradtionalist catholics make anti-semitic remarks I have no idea. By the way,in the area of the Balkans, during WW2,the Catholics weren’t very kind to fellow christians,like the orthodox.
The Ustashi commited horrible crimes.I understand even some of the german troops there were shocked at their brutality.

 

[Valke2]

There’s no shortgage of histocial evidence to support the belief that people can be cruel and murderous.

On the plus side, every day that we’re alive is an opportunity to treat people with respect and love, and to act with humility and grace. Personally, I’m hoping to succeed at this more often than I fail.

 

[latinmasslover]

In this thread the person asked about antisemitic comments by traditional Catholics. No one could have given a more eloquent answer then you have.

Changing the subject, how typical. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[latinmasslover]

There’s no shortgage of histocial evidence to support the belief that people can be cruel and murderous.

On the plus side, every day that we’re alive is an opportunity to treat people with respect and love, and to act with humility and grace. Personally, I’m hoping to succeed at this more often than I fail.

Amen to that

 

[ckonrad]

If it were a curse by God, would it be unjust? If God cursed the earth in Genesis and destroyed all but 8 people in the Flood, why is a much smaller chastisement (which included about 70 million people, Catholic, non-Catholic, good and bad alike) so difficult to accept?

What chastisement is too great for rejecting God Himself?

Rememeber why God became angry with the people who judged Job in the book of Job, we have no right to ever say that God is punishing people for their sins. To argue about this issue of the holocaust being punishment of the jews is very seriously sinful for us catholics to do. Also lets not forget the rainbow that God said would be a sign of his covenant with His people after the flood.

-corey

 

[TMC]

The Lord has always used the enemies of a person/nation for punishment. You don’t really expect Him to come down here with a wooden paddle to swat bottoms, do you?

The holocaust would have nothing to do with them rejecting Catholicism, otherwise we would’ve heard about the mass murder of Buddists, Hindus, Protestants, etc. The largest number murdered were Jews, but they were not the only ones.

Why is it so hard to believe that Hitler was God’s instrument? The Lord used Absolom (spelling?) to punish David. He also used David to punish Saul. God is not a hormonal woman, He doesn’t change.

The Jews called down a curse on themselves and their children. They *literally *asked for it. If anyone wants to play the blame game, it goes back to *some *Jews in the days of Jesus. This also happened before Jesus. The Jews refused to listen to the prophets that God sent, and everybody was punished as a result. Not fair, but that’s life.

The very thought of Catholics suggesting that Hitler was God’s instrument and that the Holocaust was divine punishment quite literally makes me sick to my stomach. My heart cries out in pain that anyone could associate such a vile and hateful statement with Catholicism or any form of Christianity. I don’t know what God this post is describing, but it is not the God of Abraham and its not the Christ, who came to save the world, not condemn it.

I hope the non-Catholics reading this thread understand that the Church has specifically denied that the Jews bear any curse. The Church has repeatedly condemned the Holocaust as a great evil, and never suggested that it was divine punishment or any other such vile thing.

 

[Valke2]

Rememeber why God became angry with the people who judged Job in the book of Job, we have no right to ever say that God is punishing people for their sins. To argue about this issue of the holocaust being punishment of the jews is very seriously sinful for us catholics to do. Also lets not forget the rainbow that God said would be a sign of his covenant with His people after the flood.

-corey

Nicely said. The rainbow covenant, I believe, is between God and the entire world.

 

[jj2011]

Since there are non-Catholics participating here, I must be allowed to clarify some things. The thread began with a remark by a Catholic about anti-Semitism among traditional Catholics.

Traditional Catholics are a fraction of one percent the size of the so called official church. SSPX, for example, has adherents estimated at half a million to a million.

There is some anti-Semitism among traditional Catholics, some of whom are so Judeophobic that they will not admit even that Jesus is a Jew!

I don’t believe however that it is anti-Semitic to critique the Talmud and various rabbinical writings for their extreme anti-Christian tone, for example the Toledot Yeshu.

The New Testament warns Christians against taking a skewed attitude about Jews. St. Paul, the former persecutor of Christians, warns Gentile Christians not to become proud or despise the Jew, comparing Gentiles to a ‘wild olive’ who were grafted onto the tree after the apostasy of the Jewish nation. Yet in the last times this situation will in a sense be reversed; the Gentiles will be in apostasy, and the Jews will be reconciled.

When was the last time my fellow traditional Catholics read or cited chapter 11 of Romans? I’d like to do so here.

drbo.org/chapter/52011.htm

 

[Valke2]

I don’t believe however that it is anti-Semitic to critique the Talmud and various rabbinical writings for their extreme anti-Christian tone, for example the Toledot Yeshu.

I just want to point out that Toledot Yeshu is not part of the Talmud and was not, it is believed, meant in any way to be an accurate history, but rather a offensive parody of some perhaps unknown gospel. Clearly written as a response to Christian anti-judaism at the time. From what I have read, the various versions of this manuscript closely resemble 12 century Christiann writings about Mohammed (found that on wikipedia).

I know your post didn’t state this was part of Talmud, and I agree that it is inappropriate for any Jew to take what it says about Jesus seriously.

 

[Seamus_L]

We are hardly proud or despise the Jews when we pray that God may remove the veil from their hearts so that may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.
The most anti-Semitic act anyone can ever commit is to not proclaim the gospel to those who are perishing.

 

[latinmasslover]

The very thought of Catholics suggesting that Hitler was God’s instrument and that the Holocaust was divine punishment quite literally makes me sick to my stomach. My heart cries out in pain that anyone could associate such a vile and hateful statement with Catholicism or any form of Christianity. I don’t know what God this post is describing, but it is not the God of Abraham and its not the Christ, who came to save the world, not condemn it.

I hope the non-Catholics reading this thread understand that the Church has specifically denied that the Jews bear any curse. The Church has repeatedly condemned the Holocaust as a great evil, and never suggested that it was divine punishment or any other such vile thing.

I forgot that God threw out His Justice…when did the Church begin teaching that? A fact is a fact. The Jews were punished way back when, and they can still be punished today. Sometimes the innocent get punished with the guilty. Not fair? Get over it, original sin isn’t fair either. Why did God allow you and me to be born with a punishment for a fault we didn’t commit? That’s just the way it is. God also used St. Joan of Arc to free the French and punish the English. This isn’t unheard of. Examples are throughout the Bible as well. To deny it is ignorance and senseless.

As far as the Church now denying any curse on the Jews (which their parents called down) is typical people-pleasing language that is used today. The Church denying it isn’t dogma, therefore not infallible. Denying certain facts is essential with the upper hierarchy (especially these days). Actually, among just about everybody.

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

Again, I personally, will take the writings of the Saints and Popes over current modern-let’s-please-everyone-but-the-Lord opinion.

My whole point in quoting SAINT Teresa Benedicta was that she was a Jewess, and even after her conversion to the Church her love for the Jews never diminished. She knew she was going to die, likely by the Nazis, and one of the intentions that she offered her death for was the conversion of the Jews. If a Jew, who leaves everything to follow Christ, can admit this, I don’t understand why others say it’s anti-Christian. This statement of hers has not been criticized by Rome, so they’re aware that she wasn’t off the mark.

 

[latinmasslover]

As to the original question, I think that some Catholics, traditional and non, don’t actually hate Jews, but maybe all the sympathy that is shown the Jews because of the Holocaust. The Jews were the main targets, but nuns and priests died there, as did other Christians. People look at the misfortune, and sympathize with not only the person, but also the religion…some don’t know where to draw the line. These days it’s “cool” to be a non Christian, and similar mentalities, and in my opinion, many “anti-semites” are simply responding to that.

 

[jj2011]

From the Gospel of Mark, ch. 7:

*25 For a woman as soon as she heard of him, whose daughter had an unclean spirit, came in and fell down at his feet.
26 For the woman was a Gentile, a Syrophenician born. And she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 Who said to her: Suffer first the children to be filled: for it is not good to take the bread of the children, and cast it to the dogs.
*

Question for my fellow traditional Catholics.

I have heard the way some of you talk about the Jews; when was the last time you, citing the example of Jesus, insisted on referring to your fellow Gentiles as “dogs”?

 

[Freshman88]

The Lord has always used the enemies of a person/nation for punishment. You don’t really expect Him to come down here with a wooden paddle to swat bottoms, do you?

The holocaust would have nothing to do with them rejecting Catholicism, otherwise we would’ve heard about the mass murder of Buddists, Hindus, Protestants, etc. The largest number murdered were Jews, but they were not the only ones.

Why is it so hard to believe that Hitler was God’s instrument? The Lord used Absolom (spelling?) to punish David. He also used David to punish Saul. God is not a hormonal woman, He doesn’t change.

The Jews called down a curse on themselves and their children. They *literally *asked for it. If anyone wants to play the blame game, it goes back to *some *Jews in the days of Jesus. This also happened before Jesus. The Jews refused to listen to the prophets that God sent, and everybody was punished as a result. Not fair, but that’s life.

And what about my great uncle, a Ukrainian Catholic who was sent to a concentration camp? Was this God’s punishment on him?

What about my Ukrainian grandparents, who at the ages of 13 and 14 were taken from their farms and sent to slave labour farms in Germany? They were Catholic, was God punishing them for being Catholic?

And St. Maximillian Kolbe, a Catholic Pole - one of many Polish clergymen to die in the holocaust?

Not too mention the horrors that afflicted my Polish family - though by the Russians.

The Poles, like the Jews, suffered horribly under the Nazis, and continued to suffer under the Russians. They fought hard, and they were faithful Catholic - and continue to be faithful.

Let’s not forget that WWII started by invading a Catholic country - tell me, was God punishing Catholics too?

Do not give Hitler the satisfaction of being labeled as an instrument of God - he was an agent of Satan, a horrible and wretched soul who casted horrible pains on believers and non-believers a like.

 

[latinmasslover]

From the Gospel of Mark, ch. 7:

*25 For a woman as soon as she heard of him, whose daughter had an unclean spirit, came in and fell down at his feet.
26 For the woman was a Gentile, a Syrophenician born. And she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 Who said to her: Suffer first the children to be filled: for it is not good to take the bread of the children, and cast it to the dogs.
*

Question for my fellow traditional Catholics.

I have heard the way some of you talk about the Jews; when was the last time you, citing the example of Jesus, insisted on referring to your fellow Gentiles as “dogs”?

Dogs are the best, next to wolves, so I would never refer to somebody as a dog.

Calling another person that would be uncharitable. Jesus did not shout this out, He said it one on one with a woman, and He didn’t directly call her a dog. In a spiritual sense though, the Gentiles were the “dogs.” The Jews were the Chosen People, the Gentiles were not, they were inferior, at least spiritually.

Let’s not forget though, this woman FELL DOWN AT HIS FEET. She recognized Him for who He was and did Him homage, and He blessed her for it.

 

[latinmasslover]

And what about my great uncle, a Ukrainian Catholic who was sent to a concentration camp? Was this God’s punishment on him?

What about my Ukrainian grandparents, who at the ages of 13 and 14 were taken from their farms and sent to slave labour farms in Germany? They were Catholic, was God punishing them for being Catholic?

And St. Maximillian Kolbe, a Catholic Pole - one of many Polish clergymen to die in the holocaust?

Not too mention the horrors that afflicted my Polish family - though by the Russians.

The Poles, like the Jews, suffered horribly under the Nazis, and continued to suffer under the Russians. They fought hard, and they were faithful Catholic - and continue to be faithful.

Let’s not forget that WWII started by invading a Catholic country - tell me, was God punishing Catholics too?

I would say to refer to post #193:

Sometimes the innocent get punished with the guilty. Not fair? … original sin isn’t fair either. Why did God allow you and me to be born with a punishment for a fault we didn’t commit? That’s just the way it is.

I never said that mass murder was right. Only that God does use it (and natural disasters…see Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc) for punishment. He *allows *it might be the better choice of words.

 

[Freshman88]

I would say to refer to post #193:

Sometimes the innocent get punished with the guilty. Not fair? … original sin isn’t fair either. Why did God allow you and me to be born with a punishment for a fault we didn’t commit? That’s just the way it is.

I never said that mass murder was right. Only that God does use it (and natural disasters…see Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc) for punishment. He *allows *it might be the better choice of words.

Yeah, but your missing one point - it was revealed that God played a part in Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood. Both of which the accounts make mention of NO ONE who was innocent.

So to compare it to those biblical events, you need to do two things.

1. show me where you have gained the authority to say this - a revelation, perhaps encyclical, that reveals Hitler’s actions as being part of God’s plan - because that’s what the bible does with those massacres that you brought up.
2. Prove that there were innocent people during the flood, or at Soddom and Gormorah.

You may be able to do number 2 - but i doubt it. Number one is impossible.

Can’t do it? then what gives you the right to sit in your chair, and tell me that the suffering of my loving family members was part of God’s plan.

Perhaps its experience - but listening to your grandparents describe the graphic history and grave injustices that they went through, people whom you love, the same grandparent who take you to a hockey game or out for a treat - describe things unmentionable to you is one thing. To then sit here, and hear one of my fellow traditional Catholics claim that it was divine justice…

I’m finding it hard to control myself.

 

[TMC]

I forgot that God threw out His Justice…when did the Church begin teaching that?

God did not throw out His Justice. What justice is there in punishing 6 million people 1910 years after an event that they had absolutely nothing to do with?

A fact is a fact. The Jews were punished way back when, and they can still be punished today.

Some people say this, I know, but it is not Catholic. The Church teaches quite clearly that the Jews are not being punished for deicide. There is no “curse” on the Jews. You don’t have to believe this, but it is what the Church teaches.

Sometimes the innocent get punished with the guilty. Not fair? Get over it, original sin isn’t fair either. Why did God allow you and me to be born with a punishment for a fault we didn’t commit? That’s just the way it is. God also used St. Joan of Arc to free the French and punish the English. This isn’t unheard of. Examples are throughout the Bible as well. To deny it is ignorance and senseless.

Christ taught that we are judged according to our own faith and our own actions. There is no concept of group guilt in Christianity.

As far as the Church now denying any curse on the Jews (which their parents called down) is typical people-pleasing language that is used today. The Church denying it isn’t dogma, therefore not infallible. Denying certain facts is essential with the upper hierarchy (especially these days). Actually, among just about everybody.

So you agree that the Church denies that the Jews are cursed or guilty of deicide? Like 90+% of Church teachings, this is not infallible, but it is what the Church teaches. You can deny it, but you must admit that you are at odds with the Church on this topic.

Again, I personally, will take the writings of the Saints and Popes over current modern-let’s-please-everyone-but-the-Lord opinion.

You can pick and choose what Church teachings you believe, if that is your approach to the faith. But that does not transform your opinions into Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that the Jewish people bear any collective guilt or curse of deicide. Period.

My whole point in quoting SAINT Teresa Benedicta was that she was a Jewess, and even after her conversion to the Church her love for the Jews never diminished. She knew she was going to die, likely by the Nazis, and one of the intentions that she offered her death for was the conversion of the Jews. If a Jew, who leaves everything to follow Christ, can admit this, I don’t understand why others say it’s anti-Christian. This statement of hers has not been criticized by Rome, so they’re aware that she wasn’t off the mark.

Assuming that she said this, which I have never heard before or seen anywhere, it certainly can’t contradict clear Church teaching on this issue.

You admit that the Church does not agree that there is a “curse,” why are you so adamant in insisting there is one? What possible value is there to you in announcing that an entire race of people are cursed, and that God is sending (or at least has sent) vicious maniacs to kill them?