I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

[chosen_people]

Changing the subject, how typical. Thank you for proving my point.

How could I possibly disprove your point? It is a simple fact that the Jews are the least intelligent and least talented of all the people on earth and there can be no doubt that this situation is a direct result of God’s punishment. If I did not see this earlier it is only because as a victim of the curse I am unable to grasp those truths so obvious to you.

 

[latinmasslover]

Yeah, but your missing one point - it was revealed that God played a part in Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood. Both of which the accounts make mention of NO ONE who was innocent.

So to compare it to those biblical events, you need to do two things.

1. show me where you have gained the authority to say this - a revelation, perhaps encyclical, that reveals Hitler’s actions as being part of God’s plan - because that’s what the bible does with those massacres that you brought up.
2. Prove that there were innocent people during the flood, or at Soddom and Gormorah.

You may be able to do number 2 - but i doubt it. Number one is impossible.

Can’t do it? then what gives you the right to sit in your chair, and tell me that the suffering of my loving family members was part of God’s plan.

Perhaps its experience - but listening to your grandparents describe the graphic history and grave injustices that they went through, people whom you love, the same grandparent who take you to a hockey game or out for a treat - describe things unmentionable to you is one thing. To then sit here, and hear one of my fellow traditional Catholics claim that it was divine justice…

I’m finding it hard to control myself.

A loving, good hearted man who, 23 (a son to me) wanted to protect my baby sister. As a result, he was tortured for two weeks, one torture being skinned partially. Bad things happen to good people, that’s the way things work.

As to the first point, there is no infallible statement regarding the “curse of the Jews;” however, there is no infallible statement against it either.

To the second one, it’s a pretty presumptuous statement to say that all the children of the world, at the time of the flood, and all the children of S&G were sinners deserving of death.

God permits suffering, sometimes to make us stronger, sometimes as a punishment. Jesus was crucified, it had to happen. Does that make Judas less guilty of sin for betraying Him? Does it make the Roman soldiers who drove the nails through His Hands less accountable? No. Hitler isn’t justified in doing what he did, but God allowed it "so the Scriptures may be fulfilled…‘His blood be upon us and our children.’ "

 

[latinmasslover]

Some people say this, I know, but it is not Catholic. The Church teaches quite clearly that the Jews are not being punished for deicide. There is no “curse” on the Jews. You don’t have to believe this, but it is what the Church teaches.

Christ taught that we are judged according to our own faith and our own actions. There is no concept of group guilt in Christianity.

You can pick and choose what Church teachings you believe, if that is your approach to the faith. But that does not transform your opinions into Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that the Jewish people bear any collective guilt or curse of deicide. Period.

Assuming that she said this, which I have never heard before or seen anywhere, it certainly can’t contradict clear Church teaching on this issue.

Um, the Church today says that there is no curse.

No group guilt? What then is original sin?

I am not at odds with the Church, only with cowardly statements.

The reference for St. Teresa’s statement: New Saints and Blesseds of the Catholic Church by Ferdinand Holbock; page 184

She can’t contradict Church teaching, and she didn’t. Certain members of the hierarchy are contradicting Church teaching. What’s clear about this teaching? The Church said one thing for many, *many *years, and now in this people-pleasing era says the opposite. Which contradicting opinion is more likely in line with the truth?

 

[latinmasslover]

How could I possibly disprove your point? It is a simple fact that the Jews are the least intelligent and least talented of all the people on earth and there can be no doubt that this situation is a direct result of God’s punishment. If I did not see this earlier it is only because as a victim of the curse I am unable to grasp those truths so obvious to you.

You’re still side-stepping. First you changed the subject. Now you’re mocking. These are both ways of saying “I have no argument.” As for the sarcasm, I’ll keep my mouth shut on this point.

 

[TMC]

A loving, good hearted man who, 23 (a son to me) wanted to protect my baby sister. As a result, he was tortured for two weeks, one torture being skinned partially. Bad things happen to good people, that’s the way things work.

As to the first point, there is no infallible statement regarding the “curse of the Jews;” however, there is no infallible statement against it either.

To the second one, it’s a pretty presumptuous statement to say that all the children of the world, at the time of the flood, and all the children of S&G were sinners deserving of death.

God permits suffering, sometimes to make us stronger, sometimes as a punishment. Jesus was crucified, it had to happen. Does that make Judas less guilty of sin for betraying Him? Does it make the Roman soldiers who drove the nails through His Hands less accountable? No. Hitler isn’t justified in doing what he did, but God allowed it "so the Scriptures may be fulfilled…‘His blood be upon us and our children.’ "

OK, I am resigned to the fact that you have this strongly held belief that is completely contrary to the Church’s teachings. Certainly, like most teachings, it has not been infallibly declared. But I am wondering how this idea is maintained in the face of other aspects of the faith, so please indulge me a couple of questions.

What is the meaning of Christ’s statement from the cross “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34. Why is this not an act of forgiveness that is more powerful than the supposed self-curse called down on the Jews?

What did Paul mean when he said that in God there was neither Jew nor Greek, Gal 3:28, and that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, Col 3:11. Why didn’t Paul take this opportunity to point out this curse that Jews were laboring under? I would think that a curse that prevents Jews from discerning good from evil (isn’t that supposed to be its nature?) would have been important to Paul and provided a distinction for Jews.

Is the Pope, as successor of Peter, given the authority to bind and to loose? If so, why isn’t the statement of the last several Popes that the Jews are not cursed definitive? If the Pope has the authority to bind and loose on earth, a power reflected in heaven, Matthew 16:19, 18:18, even if the Jews were cursed at one time, isn’t the curse released now? Is the Pope’s power to forgive limited in some way not reflected in the Gospel?

Hasn’t God said from the beginning of the law that each man is judged according to his own sins, and not the sins of his ancestors? Isn’t that what Deuteronomy 24:16 means, and Ezekiel 18?

 

[latinmasslover]

OK, I am resigned to the fact that you have this strongly held belief that is completely contrary to the Church’s teachings. Certainly, like most teachings, it has not been infallibly declared. But I am wondering how this idea is maintained in the face of other aspects of the faith, so please indulge me a couple of questions.

What is the meaning of Christ’s statement from the cross “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34. Why is this not an act of forgiveness that is more powerful than the supposed self-curse called down on the Jews?

What did Paul mean when he said that in God there was neither Jew nor Greek, Gal 3:28, and that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, Col 3:11. Why didn’t Paul take this opportunity to point out this curse that Jews were laboring under? I would think that a curse that prevents Jews from discerning good from evil (isn’t that supposed to be its nature?) would have been important to Paul and provided a distinction for Jews.

Is the Pope, as successor of Peter, given the authority to bind and to loose? If so, why isn’t the statement of the last several Popes that the Jews are not cursed definitive? If the Pope has the authority to bind and loose on earth, a power reflected in heaven, Matthew 16:19, 18:18, even if the Jews were cursed at one time, isn’t the curse released now? Is the Pope’s power to forgive limited in some way not reflected in the Gospel?

Hasn’t God said from the beginning of the law that each man is judged according to his own sins, and not the sins of his ancestors? Isn’t that what Deuteronomy 24:16 means, and Ezekiel 18?

Completely contrary to the Church’s teachings? No, not really. Contrary to the *opinion *of five popes not speaking infallibly. Yes, many of our beliefs have not been infallibly defined, but the beliefs have been here since the beginning of the Church.

“Father, forgive them…” I could ask how anyone could possibly go to Hell after such a statement. Our answers would likely be the same here.

At this time I have no response regarding St. Paul’s not addressing every single itty-bitty matter in the Church. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focal point in my life with God, simply an acknowledgment. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focus in Christianity. Some do focus on it, trads and non-trads alike. Can we treat them like garbage because their race killed God? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I’m not advocating violence toward the Jews (or any other person/s due to religious differences). The Holocaust was a horrible thing, but it was permitted, and I’ll side with a canonized Saint (SaintS, actually) over a recent change of mind.

Are the Jews still cursed? I have no idea how long it was to last, but I do believe, with St. Teresa, that the Holocaust was permitted due to a certain incident some 2000 years ago.
It was my understanding that that non Catholics could confess to a Catholic priest but could not receive absolution. Can the Pope absolve for an unconfessed sin? Can he absolve in this matter? If so, I would like to see a source ( I’m being very sincere). There are limits to the power of the pope, let us not forget. Anyway, is the curse over, I’m not God and I cannot say. But I’m not denying that there was, in fact, a curse.

As to sins being passed on, I already addressed it. The Scriptures also say that sins carry to the fourth (?) generation. And again, original sin. Why are we punished for their sin? Again, our answer to this will likely be the same.

 

[TMC]

Completely contrary to the Church’s teachings? No, not really. Contrary to the *opinion *of five popes not speaking infallibly. Yes, many of our beliefs have not been infallibly defined, but the beliefs have been here since the beginning of the Church.

And so we return to the consistent traditionalist claim – the doctrines you like are dogma, the ones you do not are opinions.

“Father, forgive them…” I could ask how anyone could possibly go to Hell after such a statement. Our answers would likely be the same here.

I have no idea what you are driving at. Christ asked His Father to forgive those that crucified Him.

At this time I have no response regarding St. Paul’s not addressing every single itty-bitty matter in the Church. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focal point in my life with God, simply an acknowledgment. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focus in Christianity. Some do focus on it, trads and non-trads alike. Can we treat them like garbage because their race killed God? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I’m not advocating violence toward the Jews (or any other person/s due to religious differences). The Holocaust was a horrible thing, but it was permitted, and I’ll side with a canonized Saint (SaintS, actually) over a recent change of mind.

This is laughably disingenuous. The focus of much of Paul’s writings and much of his ministry was reconciling the Gentile and Jewish sides of the faith. The nature of Judaism, its relationship to Greek Christians, and the relationship of Judaism to Christianity is the focus of Galatians and a major theme of Romans. It was not an “itty-bitty” matter. The fact that many, perhaps most, of Paul’s and the other Apostles friends and families were cursed by God would not have been some itty-bitty trivia, easily passed over.

Are the Jews still cursed? I have no idea how long it was to last, but I do believe, with St. Teresa, that the Holocaust was permitted due to a certain incident some 2000 years ago.
It was my understanding that that non Catholics could confess to a Catholic priest but could not receive absolution. Can the Pope absolve for an unconfessed sin? Can he absolve in this matter? If so, I would like to see a source ( I’m being very sincere). There are limits to the power of the pope, let us not forget. Anyway, is the curse over, I’m not God and I cannot say. But I’m not denying that there was, in fact, a curse.

The source? I gave it, Matthew 16:19. The Church teaches that Sacraments for which Christ did not proscribe a particular matter or form, the matter and form is left to the Church. The Church teaches that there is no sin so great that it cannot be forgiven. But this is a bit disingenuous of me, because the Church clearly teaches that there is not and never was a curse.

As to sins being passed on, I already addressed it. The Scriptures also say that sins carry to the fourth (?) generation. And again, original sin. Why are we punished for their sin? Again, our answer to this will likely be the same.

The Scriptures say no such thing. The passages I cited to you are clear:

Deut 24:16 – Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 – Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, what is the meaning of this proverb that you recite in the land of Israel: “Fathers have eaten green grapes, thus their children’s teeth are on edge”? As I live, says the Lord GOD: I swear that there shall no longer be anyone among you who will repeat this proverb in Israel. For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.

 

[juliamajor]

Completely contrary to the Church’s teachings? No, not really. Contrary to the *opinion *of five popes not speaking infallibly. Yes, many of our beliefs have not been infallibly defined, but the beliefs have been here since the beginning of the Church.

“Father, forgive them…” I could ask how anyone could possibly go to Hell after such a statement. Our answers would likely be the same here.

At this time I have no response regarding St. Paul’s not addressing every single itty-bitty matter in the Church. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focal point in my life with God, simply an acknowledgment. The “curse of the Jews” isn’t a focus in Christianity. Some do focus on it, trads and non-trads alike. Can we treat them like garbage because their race killed God? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I’m not advocating violence toward the Jews (or any other person/s due to religious differences). The Holocaust was a horrible thing, but it was permitted, and I’ll side with a canonized Saint (SaintS, actually) over a recent change of mind.

Are the Jews still cursed? I have no idea how long it was to last, but I do believe, with St. Teresa, that the Holocaust was permitted due to a certain incident some 2000 years ago.
It was my understanding that that non Catholics could confess to a Catholic priest but could not receive absolution. Can the Pope absolve for an unconfessed sin? Can he absolve in this matter? If so, I would like to see a source ( I’m being very sincere). There are limits to the power of the pope, let us not forget. Anyway, is the curse over, I’m not God and I cannot say. But I’m not denying that there was, in fact, a curse.

As to sins being passed on, I already addressed it. The Scriptures also say that sins carry to the fourth (?) generation. And again, original sin. Why are we punished for their sin? Again, our answer to this will likely be the same.

Wow-Everything that the OP implied has been proven true.I’ve seen more nastiness, bigotry and sheer stupidity in this forum then I have ever seen in any other forums- combined. Lack of charity seems to dominate this forum.I was born and raised and a teenager before Vii-so I know both sides of the coin. And if this is a Traditionalist view on Jews _ I want no part of it. But what should I expect? There are so many conspiracy theories and anti anybody before 1962 that the Psyche ward in any hospital would be happy to accommodate them. TLM is not what i have problems with - it’s the rhetoric and sour grapes that really gets to me.Blame everything on the NO or on Jews or homosexuals or liberals or whatever punching bag you want. The truth is people and Vatican wanted Change because of views like this!.So if VII brought change just look in the mirror to see why change was necessary.I believe that the Holy Spirit Has guided and will continue to guide the Church and the popes. And if you disagree with that- why do you even consider yourself to be Catholic?Your just like protestant reformers who wanted the church TO BE Their VISION of what the church should be- not God’s.If you believe the Pope is infallible in Faith and morals- why do you question everything that comes from a pope that doesn’t fit in your Philosophy?And If you believe that John Paul II was wrong or John the xxiii or the chair of Peter was vacant how does"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" square with your philosophy?

 

[DLT]

Wow-Everything that the OP implied has been proven true.I’ve seen more nastiness, bigotry and sheer stupidity in this forum then I have ever seen in any other forums- combined. Lack of charity seems to dominate this forum.I was born and raised and a teenager before Vii-so I know both sides of the coin. And if this is a Traditionalist view on Jews _ I want no part of it. But what should I expect? There are so many conspiracy theories and anti anybody before 1962 that the Psyche ward in any hospital would be happy to accommodate them. TLM is not what i have problems with - it’s the rhetoric and sour grapes that really gets to me.Blame everything on the NO or on Jews or homosexuals or liberals or whatever punching bag you want. The truth is people and Vatican wanted Change because of views like this!.So if VII brought change just look in the mirror to see why change was necessary.I believe that the Holy Spirit Has guided and will continue to guide the Church and the popes. And if you disagree with that- why do you even consider yourself to be Catholic?Your just like protestant reformers who wanted the church TO BE Their VISION of what the church should be- not God’s.If you believe the Pope is infallible in Faith and morals- why do you question everything that comes from a pope that doesn’t fit in your Philosophy?And If you believe that John Paul II was wrong or John the xxiii or the chair of Peter was vacant how does"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" square with your philosophy?

 

[DLT]

Wow-Everything that the OP implied has been proven true.I’ve seen more nastiness, bigotry and sheer stupidity in this forum then I have ever seen in any other forums- combined. Lack of charity seems to dominate this forum.I was born and raised and a teenager before Vii-so I know both sides of the coin. And if this is a Traditionalist view on Jews _ I want no part of it. But what should I expect? There are so many conspiracy theories and anti anybody before 1962 that the Psyche ward in any hospital would be happy to accommodate them. TLM is not what i have problems with - it’s the rhetoric and sour grapes that really gets to me.Blame everything on the NO or on Jews or homosexuals or liberals or whatever punching bag you want. The truth is people and Vatican wanted Change because of views like this!.So if VII brought change just look in the mirror to see why change was necessary.I believe that the Holy Spirit Has guided and will continue to guide the Church and the popes. And if you disagree with that- why do you even consider yourself to be Catholic?Your just like protestant reformers who wanted the church TO BE Their VISION of what the church should be- not God’s.If you believe the Pope is infallible in Faith and morals- why do you question everything that comes from a pope that doesn’t fit in your Philosophy?And If you believe that John Paul II was wrong or John the xxiii or the chair of Peter was vacant how does"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" square with your philosophy?

I made a mistake in submitting my last answer to your e-mail, and it was not posted, so here it is.

Not all traditionalist think like that, just some who are in schism. Dietrich von Hildebrand was more or less a traditionalist, and he suffered much from the Nazis because he did not agree with their policies.

It is true that the Lord Jesus Christ predicted (before the fact, not after the fact) the fall of Jerusalem, but that does not mean that he approved of all that the Romans did, nor does it means the Jewish people were cursed forever.

 

[Queckie1]

the traditonal latin mass and church was always anti semitic. one of the man made prayers at good friday speaks of “praying for the perfidious Jews”… Pope innocent was first to make Jews wear the Star of David, other “traditions” in latin church in europe taught catholics to attack Jews during the High Holy Days, smack and spit on them and to drive them out of market areas.
the anti semitism of this latin rite is deep and anyone can learn more about its haterd

 

[Valke2]

It seems this thread is causing division and enimity rather than understanding and consenses (sp?) . Let me ask this question. Before Vatican II, was it the Church’s postion that Jews have been cursed and subject to collective punishment for the past 2,000 years?

 

[jj2011]

I must say that this whole curse business has me perplexed, since Jesus died pardoning His crucifiers rather than cursing.
Also, one of the greatest saints in church history is Paul, who originally sided with the rabbinical persecutors of the nascent church, and I don’t see any of my brethren asserting that he was cursed. St. Peter in his Pentecost address to the Jews said “repent and be baptized every one of you,” the same means of obtaining pardon and forgiveness that the church considers necessary for Gentile Christians.

What I’d like to do here is post a prayer that used to be said in every Latin rite Catholic church, known as the Act of Consecration of the human race to the Sacred Heart. I think that people are smart, that they can read, and make up their own minds about whether church teaching considered the Jews cursed.

Most sweet Jesus,
Redeemer of the human race,
look down upon us,
humbly prostrate before Thine altar.

We are Thine and Thine we wish to be;
but to be more surely united with Thee,
behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today
to Thy Most Sacred Heart.

Many, indeed, have never known Thee;
many, too, despising Thy precepts,
have rejected Thee.

Have mercy on them all,
most merciful Jesus,
and draw them to Thy Sacred Heart.

Be Thou King, O Lord,
not only of the faithful who have never forsaken Thee,
but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned Thee,
grant that they may quickly return to their Father’s house,
lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.

Be Thou King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions,
or whom discord keeps aloof
and call them back to the harbour of truth and unity of faith,
so that soon there may be but one flock and one shepherd.

Be Thou King of all those who even now sit in the shadow of idolatry or Islam,
and refuse not Thou to bring them into the light of Thy kingdom.
*Look, finally, with eyes of pity upon the children of that race,
which was for so long a time Thy chosen people;
and let Thy Blood, which was once invoked upon them in vengeance,
now descend upon them also in a cleansing flood of redemption and eternal life.

*Grant, O Lord,
to Thy Church,
assurance of freedom and immunity from harm;
give peace and order to all nations,
and make the earth resound
from pole to pole with one cry:
Praise to the Divine Heart
that wrought our salvation:
to it be glory
and honour forever.

Amen.

 

[TMC]

It seems this thread is causing division and enimity rather than understanding and consenses (sp?) . Let me ask this question. Before Vatican II, was it the Church’s postion that Jews have been cursed and subject to collective punishment for the past 2,000 years?

This is a very interesting question. I don’t have the whole answer, but my understanding is that although condemnations of Jews can be found amongst some early Church Fathers, it became more prominent in the fourth century. If and when the ‘blood curse’ was formally taught I don’t know.

This raises a much more global question - does it matter? If it turns out that the first centuries of the Church did not believe this, but it was believed in different forms for many hundreds of years after that, and we are back to rejecting it now, what, if anything, would that say about it?

 

[Seamus_L]

In a very real sense anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is cursed. In the case of the Jews, they were given the law and the prophets, had a special relationship with God and were also the first to hear the gospel and bear witness to the miracles of Jesus. Instead a large portion of them called for the death of the saviour of mankind and persecuted his church. Remember the words of Jesus in the 11th chapter of St Matthew regarding the places where his miracles were performed, and where they were not performed, and how it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgement.
Of course any Jew, or anyone else who repentents and worships Jesus Christ is no longer cursed in any way.

 

[latinmasslover]

the traditonal latin mass and church was always anti semitic. one of the man made prayers at good friday speaks of “praying for the perfidious Jews”… Pope innocent was first to make Jews wear the Star of David, other “traditions” in latin church in europe taught catholics to attack Jews during the High Holy Days, smack and spit on them and to drive them out of market areas.
the anti semitism of this latin rite is deep and anyone can learn more about its haterd

Buddy, look at the KKK before you condemn the Catholic Church. Most of it’s members are non Catholic “Christians,” and are not fond of the Jews. Hating isn’t a “latin thing, Catholic thing, Muslim thing, Protestant thing” etc, it’s a personal problem.

Also, what is your problem with the Church praying for the conversion of the Jews?

 

[TMC]

In a very real sense anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is cursed. In the case of the Jews, they were given the law and the prophets, had a special relationship with God and were also the first to hear the gospel and bear witness to the miracles of Jesus. Instead a large portion of them called for the death of the saviour of mankind and persecuted his church. Remember the words of Jesus in the 11th chapter of St Matthew regarding the places where his miracles were performed, and where they were not performed, and how it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgement.

                    Of course any Jew, or anyone else who repentents and worships Jesus Christ is no longer cursed in any way.

I agree with you to the extent that Jews are in a similar position to other non-Christians. I would not call it a curse, but I would agree that non-Christians are hindered because they do not have access to the fullness of God’s revelation and thus have a more difficult path to grace than those that hear and heed Jesus’ call.

The problem I have with your formulation, and one of the many problems I have with the whole blood curse idea, is the idea that a large portion of the Jews called for Christ’s death. Or even that a large portion personally reject Christ’s message during his earthly ministry.

There were millions of Jews in 30 AD. Most Jews did not live in Judea and Galilee and would not have heard of Jesus’ ministry. They did have the prophets and the law to guide them, but they had no more access to Christ’s message than the Greeks or the Turks they lived amongst.

What percentage of Jews were in Jerusalem for the holidays? Of those in Jerusalem how many were in that crowd? A few hundred? A few thousand? How many saw what was going on, decided they wanted no part of it and went home?

So why would the descendants of a Jew whose greatx100 grandfather was asleep in his bed in Greece on that day bear a curse? Because some idiots he never met called for Jesus’ death? Whey would a Jew whose family has been Jewish for 1000 years, but can’t trace any lineage back to the Mid-East? Why is there no similar curse on Romans?

The whole curse idea is internally illogical, not supported by Scripture, clearly not believed by the early Church (which was lead entirely by Jews), and has been firmly rejected by the last several Popes and the most recent Ecumenical Council. The real mystery is why some cling to it with such passion. How does it advance those individuals’ faith to believe that a race is cursed? Why does it matter so much?

 

[latinmasslover]

Wow-Everything that the OP implied has been proven true.I’ve seen more nastiness, bigotry and sheer stupidity in this forum then I have ever seen in any other forums- combined. Lack of charity seems to dominate this forum.I was born and raised and a teenager before Vii-so I know both sides of the coin. And if this is a Traditionalist view on Jews _ I want no part of it. But what should I expect? There are so many conspiracy theories and anti anybody before 1962 that the Psyche ward in any hospital would be happy to accommodate them. TLM is not what i have problems with - it’s the rhetoric and sour grapes that really gets to me.Blame everything on the NO or on Jews or homosexuals or liberals or whatever punching bag you want. The truth is people and Vatican wanted Change because of views like this!.So if VII brought change just look in the mirror to see why change was necessary.I believe that the Holy Spirit Has guided and will continue to guide the Church and the popes. And if you disagree with that- why do you even consider yourself to be Catholic?Your just like protestant reformers who wanted the church TO BE Their VISION of what the church should be- not God’s.If you believe the Pope is infallible in Faith and morals- why do you question everything that comes from a pope that doesn’t fit in your Philosophy?And If you believe that John Paul II was wrong or John the xxiii or the chair of Peter was vacant how does"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" square with your philosophy?

Do not imply that I’m a sedevacantist please.

Truth doesn’t change. As I said before, I will go with the constant teachings AND opinions of the Church in religious matters over modern ones, and there is nothing wrong with that. Either the Church opinion on this matter was right then and is wrong now, or was wrong then and is right now…it can’t be both, to say otherwise shows a lack of common sense.

I haven’t come across anyone on this forum who hates the Jews. Cursed or not, we are still to be charitable. Acknowledging facts that are not pleasant is not hate, contrary to popular opinion here.

You talk about Trads seeing conspiracies everywhere? Try reading your own post as well as some others. If anyone is being paranoid, well, it’s not the trads. We reveal a fact and everyone else twists what we say to fit the hippie view of love.

Let’s all get real. Read what is written before responding.

 

[TMC]

Do not imply that I’m a sedevacantist please.

Truth doesn’t change. As I said before, I will go with the constant teachings AND opinions of the Church in religious matters over modern ones, and there is nothing wrong with that. Either the Church opinion on this matter was right then and is wrong now, or was wrong then and is right now…it can’t be both, to say otherwise shows a lack of common sense.

Truth doesn’t change, so yes, there are many issues on which the Church has sometimes been right and sometimes wrong. This appears to be one of them. You admit that this is not a “constant teaching,” because you admit it has changed. You can cling to the old teachings, but it does mean you are dissenting from Catholic teaching in this area. I just hope you make that clear so that non-Catholics are not confused about what Catholics believe.

I haven’t come across anyone on this forum who hates the Jews. Cursed or not, we are still to be charitable. Acknowledging facts that are not pleasant is not hate, contrary to popular opinion here.

This is a very interesting definition of ‘hate’ and of ‘charity’. This is the most common refrain when defending prejudices - my prejudices are OK because they are true.

You talk about Trads seeing conspiracies everywhere? Try reading your own post as well as some others. If anyone is being paranoid, well, it’s not the trads. We reveal a fact and everyone else twists what we say to fit the hippie view of love.

Let’s all get real. Read what is written before responding.

I advocate only Christ’s view of love. I am having trouble fitting this idea – that an entire race of people have been rendered incapable of discerning good from evil because the distant ancestors of some of them supposedly bear the guilt for rejecting Christ – into my understanding of Christian love and charity.

Christ did not speak of any curse, in fact expressly forgave those responsible for his death from the cross. Peter, Paul, and James struggled with how much Gentile converts should be made to be like Jews - not the other way around - and never suggested that any such curse existed.

 

[GerardP]

Rememeber why God became angry with the people who judged Job in the book of Job, we have no right to ever say that God is punishing people for their sins.

We have every right to believe that God chastises those whom He loves. God punishes people for sins. David is a prime example. Moses is another. 40 years in the desert is another.

The point I made is that God is incapable of issuing an unjust punishment.

To argue about this issue of the holocaust being punishment of the jews is very seriously sinful for us catholics to do.

Based on what? Think about what the term “holocaust” actually means. Secondly, it’s only a myopic view that sees the holocaust separately from the whole of WWII. WWII was no blessing by God, I can tell you that.

Also lets not forget the rainbow that God said would be a sign of his covenant with His people after the flood.

-corey

He promised that He wouldn’t destroy the world with a flood again. He didn’t say He wouldn’t do it again with something else.